SCOTUS removes Roe V Wade

[tehdang]

Here's the thing: That isn't the primary argument for abortion legality. The primary argument is that bodily autonomy trumps everything else, up to and including not carrying a pregnancy if you don't want to.

That's the primary argument. There is nothing else in the place of that. Zip. Zero. Nothing.

Everything else is just a discussion of side effects. Things like, "Increased poverty" or "Foster care overloading" are not the primary argument here. Just negative consequences.

As long as people keep bringing them up as just another reason to legislate abortion on demand, I'll keep responding to them. It's as easy as that.

You're probably also aware that a primary argument for the pro-life position is that there's another body in that woman, and it's not very easy to discard its bodily autonomy if you really intend to make bodily autonomy your lynchpin. You're probably also familiar with fetal viability arguments, since a healthy second body outside the first healthy body sort of defeats autonomy uber alles arguments. I've heard enough bodily autonomy arguments to know some claim the head may be crowning and it's still a lump of cells at the mercy of the whims of the owner of its temporary home. I also don't want anyone to get the idea that there's nothing to be done to arrive at a livable compromise--I think a lot of wrestling legislatively can arrive at some 12/15/20-week system for legality simply because a ton of Americans recognize the two-body problem and are capable of weighing their rights.

[RobertoCarlos]

And contraception measures never fail. Condoms never break, the pill doesn't not work that one time, the precum doesn't do the work before you pull out.

And then you should be able to abort.

You gotta remember that was a reply to a guy comparing abortion to organ harvesting. Like sex ISNT optional.

[Elegiac]

No one forces you to have sex

Having sex is not giving irrevocable consent to use of your body for the purposes of sustaining a life, either. If you're not seeing the parallels between bodily autonomy and... *checks notes* bodily autonomy, that's just a function of you being obtuse.

[RobertoCarlos]

No one is denying a foetus becomes a child if you let it gestate, and give birth. It's not a relevant argument, nor one that has any basis in abortion.

But it IS relevant because theres cause and effect and you cant deny the action to deny life can be acquainted to ending a life.

But its a moot point anyway because I think its more humane to end a life that has no idea of its existence vs shitting out another kid into the world no one wants

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Having sex is not giving irrevocable consent to use of your body for the purposes of sustaining a life, either. If you're not seeing the parallels between bodily autonomy and... *checks notes* bodily autonomy, that's just a function of you being obtuse.

And ive already said people make mistakes so there should be the option because people are not perfect

[Elegiac]

And ive already said people make mistakes so there should be the option because people are not perfect

Not sure why you think this is an argument against the fact that termination of a pregnancy that results in a fetus dying due to nonviability and infanticide are not in fact the same thing, rofl.

You being (supposedly) pro-choice doesn't entitle you to throw out counterfactual emotional arguments that are anti-choice talking points.

[MCMLXXXII]

I'm not up to date with American theocracy but I guess pro-lifers are also against euthanasia?

[Jastall]

And then you should be able to abort.

You gotta remember that was a reply to a guy comparing abortion to organ harvesting. Like sex ISNT optional.

Sex kinda isn't optional for the survival of the species even if that's not its only function, and abstinence has a proven track record of being a terrible contraceptive in terms of policy. People are gonna have sex, that's just how it is.

Comparing abortion to organ harvesting isn't that insane. Bodily autonomy is a thing and is a basis for abortion as a right in several countries. Some people like to dismiss the argument out of hand but it's not an issue to be ignored in this debate.

[RobertoCarlos]

Not sure why you think this is an argument against the fact that termination of a pregnancy that results in a fetus dying due to nonviability and infanticide are not in fact the same thing, rofl.

You being (supposedly) pro-choice doesn't entitle you to throw out counterfactual emotional arguments that are anti-choice talking points.

That there is why you're having such a hard time of it.

Someone is disagreeing with a notion of your "Team" instead of just looking at it logically.

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Sex kinda isn't optional for the survival of the species even if that's not its only function, and abstinence has a proven track record of being a terrible contraceptive in terms of policy. People are gonna have sex, that's just how it is.

Comparing abortion to organ harvesting isn't that insane. Bodily autonomy is a thing and is a basis for abortion as a right in several countries. Some people like to dismiss the argument out of hand but it's not an issue to be ignored in this debate.

Dude we're ruining the planet from over population. We dont need to be encouraging people breeding we need to do the opposite.

Which is the main reason I dont agree with this event. We dont need more unwanted people out in the wild, we need LESS

[Lenonis]

I'm not up to date with American theocracy but I guess pro-lifers are also against euthanasia?

Nope. They only care about birth. They are often pro death penalty. Not sure how it lines up with euthanasia but the death penalty is contradictory.

[Xyonai]

As long as people keep bringing them up as just another reason to legislate abortion on demand, I'll keep responding to them. It's as easy as that.

You're probably also aware that a primary argument for the pro-life position is that there's another body in that woman, and it's not very easy to discard its bodily autonomy if you really intend to make bodily autonomy your lynchpin. You're probably also familiar with fetal viability arguments, since a healthy second body outside the first healthy body sort of defeats autonomy uber alles arguments. I've heard enough bodily autonomy arguments to know some claim the head may be crowning and it's still a lump of cells at the mercy of the whims of the owner of its temporary home. I also don't want anyone to get the idea that there's nothing to be done to arrive at a livable compromise--I think a lot of wrestling legislatively can arrive at some 12/15/20-week system for legality simply because a ton of Americans recognize the two-body problem and are capable of weighing their rights.

Actually it's really easy to keep up the Bodily Autonomy defense if someone wants to use this retort.

As I said to that Walsh-lookin'-dude earlier: I, with my hypothetical liver issues, cannot compel you, a hypothetical liver haver, to give me a chunk of your liver even if it means I'll die. You cannot force someone to give someone else blood, organs, or other tissues. You cannot force someone to fuck you, or to be your slave.

And in that same vein a woman shouldn't be compelled to incubate a life she has no intention on incubating.

[RobertoCarlos]

Nope. They only care about birth. They are often pro death penalty. Not sure how it lines up with euthanasia but the death penalty is contradictory.

Well again. Stepping outside of ones self and looking at it LOGICALLY. I would imagine some people see a difference between a criminal that earned the death sentence vs something that cant speak for itself yet and hasnt had the chance to turn against jesus

[tehdang]

It isn't a pro-life stance, it never was. It's the stance of wanting women to have less-rights than others. There is no two body problem unless you are misinformed or stupid.

The debate would certainly be a lot easier if you could just ask pro-choicers what they believe, and then ask pro-choicers what pro-lifers believe, and let those arguments air in a kangaroo court. If you really want some fireworks, ask yourself if pro-life advocates are allowed to do the same to all the pro-choice positions.

Because I try look at situations rationally and logically and not whichever "team" has the prettier colored flag.

And being pro abortion doesnt mean its something you do on a friday afternoon for kicks. Its a shitty situation for everyone. I dont think anyone "wants" to have an abortion. But sometimes its necessary because people can make mistakes and some people should never be parents. That decision should be left to the mother and father.

Meanwhile people are gonna argue over semantics and pretend a fetus wouldnt grow into a kid? Ok? what good does that logic do anyone?

I honestly think you give more power to anti abortion crowds by denying reality and not engaging in honest discourse. Ever think that's part of the problem and how you get to such extremes like over turning 50 year old cases

Pro-life people are appreciative of all the free help, particularly the obvious scorn directed at anyone who would mourn a miscarriage or hold a funeral. Just a clump of cells, same rights as a tumor, shout your abortion you're free? It keeps pushing more Americans to the middle: heavier restrictions favored towards the middle and end of the pregnancy, and allowances at the start from bad choices/failed contraception/not ready.

[MCMLXXXII]

Well again. Stepping outside of ones self and looking at it LOGICALLY. I would imagine some people see a difference between a criminal that earned the death sentence vs something that cant speak for itself yet and hasnt had the chance to turn against jesus

You would be right if people were killing newly born. But you're talking about a lump of cells which has the potential to grow into a living being. Good luck banning menstruation

[Lenonis]

Well again. Stepping outside of ones self and looking at it LOGICALLY. I would imagine some people see a difference between a criminal that earned the death sentence vs something that cant speak for itself yet and hasnt had the chance to turn against jesus

I'm pretty sure this was in reference to the every life is sacred crowd.

[Elegiac]

That there is why you're having such a hard time of it.

Someone is disagreeing with a notion of your "Team" instead of just looking at it logically.

I've already provided ethical and medical justifications for why a guaranteed right to abortion is a positive good, and why the emotionally driven claim that it's 'killing kids' is baseless.

Seems like I'm not the one lacking in rationality, rofl.

[RobertoCarlos]

You would be right if people were killing newly born. But you're talking about a lump of cells which has the potential to grow into a living being. Good luck banning menstruation

I just think its being intellectually dishonest to compare abortion to having a wank, or having a period.

Likewise people trying to claim miscarriages are then a criminal act.

Like wtf is that? Just because something is nasty and complicated does not mean its not a necessary evil. And just seems like copium for people who have aborted.

Its a complicated issue that can have massive emotional stress on the mother for life

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I've already provided ethical and medical justifications for why a guaranteed right to abortion is a positive good, and why the emotionally driven claim that it's 'killing kids' is baseless.

Seems like I'm not the one lacking in rationality, rofl.

Well when you can get back to me on how you get kids without a fetus im all ears.

[MCMLXXXII]

The debate would certainly be a lot easier if you could just ask pro-choicers what they believe, and then ask pro-choicers what pro-lifers believe, and let those arguments air in a kangaroo court. If you really want some fireworks, ask yourself if pro-life advocates are allowed to do the same to all the pro-choice positions.

Pro-life people are appreciative of all the free help, particularly the obvious scorn directed at anyone who would mourn a miscarriage or hold a funeral. Just a clump of cells, same rights as a tumor, shout your abortion you're free? It keeps pushing more Americans to the middle: heavier restrictions favored towards the middle and end of the pregnancy, and allowances at the start from bad choices/failed contraception/not ready.

Yeah the pro-lifers really come over as the rational ones.

There is a scenario where both sides can be happy: legalize abortion. People who desperately looking for an abortion can have one. And pro-lifers aren't forced to have an abortion.

[Elegiac]

As long as people keep bringing them up as just another reason to legislate abortion on demand, I'll keep responding to them. It's as easy as that.

You're probably also aware that a primary argument for the pro-life position is that there's another body in that woman, and it's not very easy to discard its bodily autonomy if you really intend to make bodily autonomy your lynchpin.

An argument which is entirely negated by aforementioned pointing out that "bodily autonomy" does not entitle you to use of someone else's body to sustain your life even if some form of 'consent' was given at one point.

To which the responses are invariably just emotional appeals in the vein of "think of the children" or slut shaming.

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Well when you can get back to me on how you get kids without a fetus im all ears.

What a silly non sequitur.

Kids developing from fetuses does not make termination of a pregnancy "killing kids". You do know induced birth, i.e. termination of a pregnancy, is a thing, right?

[MCMLXXXII]

I just think its being intellectually dishonest to compare abortion to having a wank, or having a period.

Likewise people trying to claim miscarriages are then a criminal act.

Like wtf is that? Just because something is nasty and complicated does not mean its not a necessary evil. And just seems like copium for people who have aborted.

Its a complicated issue that can have massive emotional stress on the mother for life

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Well when you can get back to me on how you get kids without a fetus im all ears.

It isn't dishonest, it's the same. Spermcells can grow into babies as well as a fetus.
Both aren't babies yet. Simple scientific fact.

[PC2]

Dude we're ruining the planet from over population. We dont need to be encouraging people breeding we need to do the opposite.

The world is underpopulated and not overpopulated. We need more manpower and brainpower in order to make progress a bit faster.

Still though, this isn't a reason to force any women to give birth. There are other better ways to incentive more births, such that a pregnant woman's free will is not violated.