1. #3261
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    More likely he'll ban reporting rapes.
    Yep, he will do what DeSantis did about covid or change the definition of Rape.

  2. #3262
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Yep, he will do what DeSantis did about covid or change the definition of Rape.
    With how backlogged rape kits are in some states, just a matter of bogging down the process even more.
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  3. #3263
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Yep, he will do what DeSantis did about covid or change the definition of Rape.
    "Women are no longer allowed to say no. Rape no longer exists".

    And they'd call it a win.
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  4. #3264
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    "Women are no longer allowed to say no. Rape no longer exists".

    And they'd call it a win.
    I mean, some Republican men have said that married women can't say no to their husbands and they don't consider that rape. So, it wouldn't surprise me.

  5. #3265
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    I mean, some Republican men have said that married women can't say no to their husbands and they don't consider that rape. So, it wouldn't surprise me.
    Only 8 years ago we had Todd Akin saying rapes don't cause pregnancies' because the body can reject it.

    Like what Disney written story are you existing in? (you being republicans, not you as postman1782, for clarification)

  6. #3266
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jna View Post
    Oh dude, come on. You just described what happened lol. But I get you are having some fun around here. Good for you, I guess.
    I can't wait for the government to ban jerking off, because you know, human cells are now treated as "persons" for criminal legislation. Masturbation is clearly mass murder, a genocide of "babies".
    I'm really liking the call to start child support and health benefits for the child beginning at the date of conception. Especially if any of that money comes at the expense of the taxpayers. That can set quite a precedent. Either it will make conservatives rethink the whole "a mass of cells is a human being" stance, or if they go for it, it can open the door for national health care a little further.
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  7. #3267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I'm really liking the call to start child support and health benefits for the child beginning at the date of conception. Especially if any of that money comes at the expense of the taxpayers. That can set quite a precedent. Either it will make conservatives rethink the whole "a mass of cells is a human being" stance, or if they go for it, it can open the door for national health care a little further.
    Licenses. Schooling. Joining the military. Everything.

    But legally it's not "life" until it's born. We'd have to change that.
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  8. #3268
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    Licenses. Schooling. Joining the military. Everything.

    But legally it's not "life" until it's born. We'd have to change that.
    If legally it is not life until it is born, then abortion should be legal. Which I guess is the entire point of the discussion. lol
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  9. #3269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    If legally it is not life until it is born, then abortion should be legal. Which I guess is the entire point of the discussion. lol
    I agree whole heartedly. I pointed out earlier in the thread 2 fun ones.
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    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  10. #3270
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Psst, the idiots are everywhere, in every country across the planet. The thing is to keep them at a minimum(or outright removed) from politics and lawmaking.

  11. #3271
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jna View Post

    Constitutions and laws are just imaginary things we create for organization, to set the guidelines of a society. Similar to tools and technology, we create them to improve our lives.
    We create tech and tools to serve us, right? Not to become servants of these creations, right? Same thing for laws, constitutions, institutions, etc.
    So, rules, laws, constitutions are as good as they fulfill their role as entities/tools to create a social structure capable of bringing peace, harmony, prosperity = improving the life of citizens who live under these systems. Because that's all that matters.

    (hyper) legalist arguments tend to treat "constitution" like some kind of flawless, infallible, sacred "Bible" that holds all the .
    The right wingers tend to follow or ascribe to the phenomenon they call natural law which is immutable and not like man's laws.... that is until the Supreme Court rules in their favor then they support all kinds of state intervention.
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    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #3272
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The right wingers tend to follow or ascribe to the phenomenon they call natural law which is immutable and not like man's laws.... that is until the Supreme Court rules in their favor then they support all kinds of state intervention.
    Well, right wing zealots tend to think of the US Constitution as some immutable and unchangeable holy document instead of a thing that needs to be updated every so often to either add or remove things that don't pertain to today's world.

    The way laws are written(at least in the US), no law is actually physically removed from the actual law books, just repealed or changed. I mean, go look at the US Tax code. The first 30 - 40 pages deal with one code and all the changes to it over the years.

  13. #3273
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    Well, right wing zealots tend to think of the US Constitution as some immutable and unchangeable holy document instead of a thing that needs to be updated every so often to either add or remove things that don't pertain to today's world.

    The way laws are written(at least in the US), no law is actually physically removed from the actual law books, just repealed or changed. I mean, go look at the US Tax code. The first 30 - 40 pages deal with one code and all the changes to it over the years.
    The fed society teaches Originalism. Originalism implies that there's value to the original intent of how the framers of the constitution and amendments can provide guidance on modern day issues.

    Problems were that in 1789, black people could not vote, women could not vote, and only land owners could vote.

    The intent of these guys is not something we should be using considering they all agreed that black people were 3/5ths of a person.

    Originalism is a flawed legal framework and the Civil War proved that Originalism is an ideology that will always fail, and the reason it fails when it comes to minority civil rights, women's civil rights, and matters that tie into those two is because the framers did not think they were issues because their society was fundamentally ignorant, and immoral by our own enlightenment.

    The biggest issue I have with Originalism is it takes the enlightenment of the 19th century and elevates it over any other enlightenment that occurred after that.

    Then when you step back you realize that bragging we have this old document that governs us is not a brag worthy issue. It shows we're willing to hold onto old prejudices and we as a society fail to evolve.

  14. #3274
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Originalism is a flawed legal framework and the Civil War proved that Originalism is an ideology that will always fail, and the reason it fails when it comes to minority civil rights, women's civil rights, and matters that tie into those two is because the framers did not think they were issues because their society was fundamentally ignorant, and immoral by our own enlightenment.
    Worse; it's either an intended lie, or whoever's pushing "originalism" is a brutalizing human rights atrocity waiting to happen. Literally; everyone pushing Originalism is either lying to your face about their motives, or they're a slavery-endorsing extremist who wants to bring back the dehumanization and enslavement of non-whites.

    Take your pick, but there isn't an alternative, because the "original" Constitutional intent was to support and protect the institution of slavery. "Oh, but I don't mean THAT bit", they say; well, then they know full well that the "original intent" is garbage reasoning for anything and the entire concept of using it is indefensible; that's why we know they're lying to you.

    Originalists are liars, or they desperately want to go back to owning black people as livestock. One or the other. Either's enough to discard the idea.


  15. #3275
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    The fed society teaches Originalism. Originalism implies that there's value to the original intent of how the framers of the constitution and amendments can provide guidance on modern day issues.
    And the immediately obvious problem with originalism is that the founders...didn't agree with each other. The "intent" carried within the Constitution, assuming you can accurately ascertain it, is the product of a compromise.

    The founders also did not agree on the concept of originalism, and how much future generations should be tied to their own.
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  16. #3276
    Founders were bullied into supporting Virginia and her stance on Slavery which brought the Southern Colonies in tow.

    Again as I stated the South never really got their due punishment for the Civil War and the North blinked in 1877.

    But Originalism will always be a flawed logic because the Civil War happened and changed the constitution which is where these issues lie at. Conservatives want us to go back before the Civil War as our guidance, and when we do that we wind up making the same mistakes that led to the Civil War.

  17. #3277
    Stood in the Fire Rommon64's Avatar
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    Originalism also gives a false sense of legitimatize to their legal arguments, in a way to avoid being just another interpretation of the Constitution. Instead of having to argue based the merits of their interpretation, they can pretend it's not an interpretation, that anything else is deviation from what the original writers actually meant. They don't have to prove their right, they win by default.
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  18. #3278
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    The fed society teaches Originalism. Originalism implies that there's value to the original intent of how the framers of the constitution and amendments can provide guidance on modern day issues.

    Problems were that in 1789, black people could not vote, women could not vote, and only land owners could vote.

    The intent of these guys is not something we should be using considering they all agreed that black people were 3/5ths of a person.

    Originalism is a flawed legal framework and the Civil War proved that Originalism is an ideology that will always fail, and the reason it fails when it comes to minority civil rights, women's civil rights, and matters that tie into those two is because the framers did not think they were issues because their society was fundamentally ignorant, and immoral by our own enlightenment.

    The biggest issue I have with Originalism is it takes the enlightenment of the 19th century and elevates it over any other enlightenment that occurred after that.

    Then when you step back you realize that bragging we have this old document that governs us is not a brag worthy issue. It shows we're willing to hold onto old prejudices and we as a society fail to evolve.
    There's obviously also value in amending the constitution, and knowing that justices are bound by the new language as written, and not subject to the caprice of judges who claim it meant something else. You've cited several aspects that were successfully changed by the amendment process (3/5ths compromise, black suffrage, women's suffrage), and it's important to recognize that future amendments would do the same for whatever you want to call civil rights and guarantee across every state. The constitution itself has been amended in over two dozen ways ... importantly proving that the old document that governs us informed us also on the need for changes. It's the question about who has the power to compel something to be unlawful or undeniable that plagues the court.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  19. #3279
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    There's obviously also value in amending the constitution, and knowing that justices are bound by the new language as written, and not subject to the caprice of judges who claim it meant something else. You've cited several aspects that were successfully changed by the amendment process (3/5ths compromise, black suffrage, women's suffrage), and it's important to recognize that future amendments would do the same for whatever you want to call civil rights and guarantee across every state. The constitution itself has been amended in over two dozen ways ... importantly proving that the old document that governs us informed us also on the need for changes. It's the question about who has the power to compel something to be unlawful or undeniable that plagues the court.
    But the amendment process you cited there wasn't used in it's true form with all the state legislatures. The 3/5ths compromise and black sufferage were not done because of the amendment process. They were done because states left the union and were in open rebellion and the remaining states passed the amendments because Originalism as a framework was used to support slavery.

    So this wasn't some successful amendment process this was done while we were killing each other. Originalism leads to civil war because there's no way to rectify the egregious behaviors that the founders supported, which were Slavery, Anti-Woman Suffrage, and support for a welfare state.

    I'm not sure how you gloss over the fact that the Civil War was being fought and then the Civil War Amendments were passed largely without the Southern States approval.

    I should also note the Reconstruction Acts kinda forced the Southern States to ratify the 13th and 14th amendments as requirements for them rejoining. Civil War forced the South to adopt the 13th amendments against their will and reconstruction acts did 14 against their will but again Americans killed a bunch of the treasonous scum so they really weren't in a position to give their opinion, which was good.

    But again Originalism shows it supported slavery.
    Last edited by Miffinat0r; 2022-06-29 at 04:21 PM.

  20. #3280
    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKing View Post
    Yeah Blur is more optimistic about the Democrats chances, at least according to a previous post they made before this newest one that you quoted. I still feel like it could go other way, my hope is that if the Democrats do lose seats it's not many, effectively leading to a stalemate on many issues, at least then the GOP will have trouble passing their usual horrendous agenda.
    If abortion supporters don't show up to vote in the mid-term and 2024, then the right to have abortion in the US is doomed.

    The only thing protecting the right currently is the Fed. The pro-life states may be able to control pharmacies and doctors in their states. However, mail is the Fed sole jurisdiction. As long as the Fed says it is legal to mail abortion pills, women in pro-life states will be able to legally order those pills from companies based in pro-abortion states. There is not a damn thing anti-abortion states can do about it. If the GOP win in 2024, that's when women will see real abortion nightmare scenario in real life.

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