1. #3381
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    This is an intentionally dishonest strawman. The only people I've ever heard frame it in terms of Clinton "deserving" or being "owed" votes were the people who refused to vote for her out of misplaced idealism.
    again with this rhetoric of "we the Democrats have convinced ourselves that it's impossible to fail our voters because we refuse to promise them anything, the voters not choosing to suck it up and vote for us anyway is their fault."

    it's a totally ass backwards way of getting people to back your party.

    I mean, where has this constantly giving the Dems votes without any promises or obligations TO HAVE AN AGENDA, gotten us?
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-01 at 05:56 PM.

  2. #3382
    Quote Originally Posted by OnlineSamantha View Post
    There's literally video footage of Obama saying it was no longer his highest priority as soon as he got in office. And I do not care about Manchin clones. That is what a fucking house whip is for, whipping your party into line to get the votes necessary. Politics is not just campaigning, a large part is backroom deals and doing what is necessary to get an agenda through. An agenda that he campaigned on and got votes on.
    And if one of those Manchin clones is the Senate Majority Leader? Harry Reid was against abortion. He wasn’t a hardliner but he wouldn’t have blown up the filibuster for it either.

    Furthermore, each House has separate whips. The Senate Whip was Dick Durbin. Was he 100% for Abortion? No he was not.

    Finally, Obamas 60 seat majority only existed for about 5 months in total. It was challenging getting the ACA passed and any abortion provision from it was stripped out. Getting what you had was the back room dealing.

  3. #3383
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    again with this rhetoric of "we the Democrats have convinced ourselves that it's impossible to fail our voters because we refuse to promise them anything, the voters not choosing to suck it up and vote for us anyway is their fault."

    it's a totally ass backwards way of getting people to back your party.
    Again: the alternative was goddamn Donald fucking Trump. "I don't like either candidate" is a fine opinion, but it doesn't mean shit in an election. Those are the candidates we had, and refusing to vote wasn't going to change that. Anyone who chose not to vote against the authoritarian fascist who made absolutely no secret of how terrible he was because the democrats weren't "good enough" is absolutely to blame for the damage he wrought on our country.

  4. #3384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    And if one of those Manchin clones is the Senate Majority Leader? Harry Reid was against abortion. He wasn’t a hardliner but he wouldn’t have blown up the filibuster for it either.

    Furthermore, each House has separate whips. The Senate Whip was Dick Durbin. Was he 100% for Abortion? No he was not.

    Finally, Obamas 60 seat majority only existed for about 5 months in total. It was challenging getting the ACA passed and any abortion provision from it was stripped out. Getting what you had was the back room dealing.
    If you cannot get your campaign promises done (campaign promises that were tacitly endorsed by establishment when they voted to have Obama be their candidate), then you do not deserve votes. Sorry, that's all there is to it. If the Democrats cannot or will not get their voters' wishes through Congress, then I don't blame anyone that becomes disillusioned and stops voting for them. Especially not when they can see just how much the Republicans can get done with much less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpresident View Post
    My words exactly. Manufacturing in the US is considerably more expensive than elsewhere, and part of that are savage regulations such as environment protection or minimum wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderaan View Post
    Saying that Wilson is a racist murderer is the same level of conspiracy as saying Sandy Hook didn't happen and the parents are in on it.
    I don't post that often, and when I do it's often in bursts. I always lurk though.

  5. #3385
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Again: the alternative was goddamn Donald fucking Trump. "I don't like either candidate" is a fine opinion, but it doesn't mean shit in an election. Those are the candidates we had, and refusing to vote wasn't going to change that. Anyone who chose not to vote against the authoritarian fascist who made absolutely no secret of how terrible he was because the democrats weren't "good enough" is absolutely to blame for the damage he wrought on our country.
    AGAIN: you refusing to factor in the Democrat's and the Clinton campaign's own failings into this just comes off as an unhealthy coping mechanism. I'm sorry that you have convinced yourself that it was the voters and not the candidates and the people who ran these campgains that are the main reason Trump won. Clinton was less than "good enough", she waffled on every issue and made her entire campgain about Trump and his bad bad no good words, little to nothing was put towards pushing what polices she had in mind, 90% of her campgain's messaging was totally dedicated to Trump. SHE WANTED HIM TO WIN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR HER.

    the fact you people are still hung up on the 2016 election when these so called "Bernie bros" are the one's out here demanding action and looking to the future to deal with this speaks volumes.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-01 at 06:16 PM.

  6. #3386
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    AGAIN: you refusing to factor in the Democrat's and the Clinton campaign's own failings into this just comes off as an unhealthy coping mechanism. I'm sorry that you have convinced yourself that it was the voters and not the candidates and the people who ran these campgains that are the main reason Trump won.
    Yeah, she ran a bad campaign. She made poor choices, and it cost her.

    I still absolutely fucking blame the people who were so far up their own asses with their idealism that they chose not to hold their nose and vote against a man who actively campaigned on racism, sexism, and war crimes.

  7. #3387
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    again with this rhetoric of "we the Democrats have convinced ourselves that it's impossible to fail our voters because we refuse to promise them anything, the voters not choosing to suck it up and vote for us anyway is their fault."

    it's a totally ass backwards way of getting people to back your party.

    I mean, where has this constantly giving the Dems votes without any promises or obligations TO HAVE AN AGENDA, gotten us?
    It's not about the Democrats doing "better", at all.

    In any election in the USA, you essentially have three choices; "A", "B", or "either's just as good to me, I don't care".

    Not voting is a choice in the latter end.

    I'll acknowledge pre-emptively that I'm talking about intent; if you can't find time to vote because of work pressures/poverty/distance/etc and absentee voting isn't an easy alternative for you, then that's a different category; your intent would fall into one of the above three, however.

    Third-party votes are generally that third option too, because you know you're not gonna elect that candidate, usually. It's a protest and you don't care who wins.

    It isn't about judging people for "not backing the Democrat". It's about judging people for declaring they see no functional difference and had no preference between the two actual representatives on the table. That's where the argument loses ground. Democracy isn't about voting for your ideal candidate. It's about making the best out of the dog's dinner that's actually on offer. And if you looked at Clinton v. Trump and said "eh, they're both equally bad", I'm putting you right in the same bed as the "both sides" bad-faith garbage spewers.

    Because it's the same fucking claim.


  8. #3388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    And if one of those Manchin clones is the Senate Majority Leader? Harry Reid was against abortion. He wasn’t a hardliner but he wouldn’t have blown up the filibuster for it either.

    Furthermore, each House has separate whips. The Senate Whip was Dick Durbin. Was he 100% for Abortion? No he was not.

    Finally, Obamas 60 seat majority only existed for about 5 months in total. It was challenging getting the ACA passed and any abortion provision from it was stripped out. Getting what you had was the back room dealing.
    A lot of words so far to arrive at the fact Democrats are incompetent and our future is sadly in their hands.

  9. #3389
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    AGAIN: you refusing to factor in the Democrat's and the Clinton campaign's own failings into this just comes off as an unhealthy coping mechanism.
    Clinton's "failings" were;

    1> An e-mail scandal that was always stupid garbage and shouldn't have misled anyone who was paying any attention
    2> She's a neoliberal.

    And I'm struggling to come up with any #3 that's even meaningful. She didn't spend enough time in your State campaigning? That's you feeling unduly entitled to shit and making an emotional, personal decision rather than what's good for the country.

    Like, I loathe Clinton. I think Biden's worse. And I'd still have voted for both, were I American. Because of the alternative, which was the Trump Presidency. Which you were fine with allowing to happen, apparently.


  10. #3390
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    .

    It isn't about judging people for "not backing the Democrat". It's about judging people for declaring they see no functional difference and had no preference between the two actual representatives on the table. That's where the argument loses ground. Democracy isn't about voting for your ideal candidate. It's about making the best out of the dog's dinner that's actually on offer. And if you looked at Clinton v. Trump and said "eh, they're both equally bad", I'm putting you right in the same bed as the "both sides" bad-faith garbage spewers.

    Because it's the same fucking claim.
    I mean, you act like people's dissatisfaction with the Democrats only came about with Hillary, and not a long simmering issue that's been at the heart to neo liberal politics since Jimmy Carter. I'm not the one you have to convince to hold their nose and vote for the less ideal candidate. it's incumbent upon the Democrats to convince people to vote for them, not you, not I, not any average person.


    no one here is going to accuse the Republican's of not catering to their base and not see the benefits to it. it's only the Democrats who have carved out this good cop bad cop scenario where they are always going to use the republican as a convenient foil to them not actually wanting to do anything besides manage the capital of the capitalist class.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-01 at 06:26 PM.

  11. #3391
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    I mean, you act like people's dissatisfaction with the Democrats only came about with Hillary, and not a long simmering issue that's been at the heart to neo liberal politics since Jimmy Carter. I'm not the one you have to convince to hold their nose and vote for the less ideal candidate. it's incumbent upon the Democrats to convince people to vote for them, not you, not I, not any average person.
    I've crapped on Democrats plenty.

    Politics, however, has consequences, and not voting for the Democrat in 2016 contributed to the Trump victory. That's how voting works. You were, at a minimum, implicitly stating you saw them as equally bad. Because if one's clearly worse for the other, you vote for the least-bad.

    That's how democracy functions. It's always about the "least-bad". Not waiting for a perfect angelic incarnation of your hopes and dreams to show up and promise you everything you wanted on a magic plate.


  12. #3392
    Jesus Christ can we stop rehashing 2016 as if scolding the relativity small portion of Bernie voters who didn't vote for Clinton will change anything?

  13. #3393
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I've crapped on Democrats plenty.

    Politics, however, has consequences, and not voting for the Democrat in 2016 contributed to the Trump victory. That's how voting works. You were, at a minimum, implicitly stating you saw them as equally bad. Because if one's clearly worse for the other, you vote for the least-bad.

    That's how democracy functions. It's always about the "least-bad". Not waiting for a perfect angelic incarnation of your hopes and dreams to show up and promise you everything you wanted on a magic plate.
    okay, cool.. can we get back to dealing with the here and now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Canpinter View Post
    Jesus Christ can we stop rehashing 2016 as if scolding the relativity small portion of Bernie voters who didn't vote for Clinton will change anything?
    it still being the topic of pages and pages of this thread tells me these people haven't be properly radicalized yet.

  14. #3394
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnlineSamantha View Post
    There's literally video footage of Obama saying it was no longer his highest priority as soon as he got in office. And I do not care about Manchin clones. That is what a fucking house whip is for, whipping your party into line to get the votes necessary. Politics is not just campaigning, a large part is backroom deals and doing what is necessary to get an agenda through. An agenda that he campaigned on and got votes on.
    And? We can take a look at the 2008 United State Senate Election Results to see that the Republicans already had enough people within their own party to filibuster any legislation they were against, which we know Republicans frequently abuse. This is before considering people like Manchin within the Democratic party, who are effectively Republicans and frequently cause problems for the Democrats, and the fence sitters who are determined to work across the aisle even though Republicans never extend the same courtesy. This isn't a "Democrats are intentionally being shit" problem, this is a "Republicans are better at seizing power and abusing it" problem. Frankly, through a mixture of Republicans sabotaging the concept of fair elections (typically through gerrymandering and seeking to constrict the ability of minority voters to participate in elections) and the general apathy of Democratic voters (i.e.: utter inability to act decisively or with any degree of understanding how to effectively engage with politics), there's not much that can be done and it has led to America being a far-right shithole. Although, given America's very proud history, it's not that surprising this is the case.

    Moreover, speaking to Obama's actions specifically, there was obviously no reason for him to prioritize this issue at the time. By the start of Obama's presidency, Roe v. Wade had already been upheld by the Supreme Court for over 30 years and there was no reason to believe this would change. It made more sense, at the time, to try and expend political influence to try and push for other things, such as healthcare reforms (which, granted, largely failed because of Republicans anyhow). People seem to not understand that of the 7-2 decision, 5 of the votes in favor of Roe v. Wade were from Republican nominations, which partially lent itself to believing that it would continue to be upheld. It also doesn't help that executive orders cannot establish (or re-establish) constitutional rights, and even if it could it would be ephemeral and subject to repeal by a future President, so there's not much Obama could realistically do to begin with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Canpinter View Post
    Jesus Christ can we stop rehashing 2016 as if scolding the relativity small portion of Bernie voters who didn't vote for Clinton will change anything?
    No, because it's a good example of how being a stupid voter in a system which uses First Past the Post can have far reaching consequences.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  15. #3395
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    -snip-
    Bu-but, Democrats are the bad guys here! Not the people who are actively damaging everything!

    It really is pathetic how people are trying to spin this. The people actually doing the harm need to be held accountable.
    Last edited by masterhorus8; 2022-07-01 at 06:43 PM. Reason: typo
    10

  16. #3396
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Finally, Obamas 60 seat majority only existed for about 5 months in total.
    Not even that long, 72 days total I read, not even 2 and a half months worth total.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also still love how people are still trying to rehash the 2016 election and blaming the voters for Clinton’s failures again when the moderators have repeatedly said to stop it.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  17. #3397
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    So tag Rozz yet again and ask them do it one more time, just for you.

    It still remains relevant to the US in 2022 that some people were just too fucking stupid to see a bigger picture.
    Nah, just reported the attempts to derail and DMed them directly this time.

    Outside of that, not trying to derail with your attempts to blame voters for the failures of politicians.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  18. #3398
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Also still love how people are still trying to rehash the 2016 election and blaming the voters for Clinton’s failures again when the moderators have repeatedly said to stop it.
    Frankly, breaking down the arguments of those who chose not to get involved in 2016/2020 is probably the best possible way to get more people to get out and vote in 2022 and 2024. Which, if they don't shift to full-on election fraud with the tacit permission of SCOTUS, may be the only real way to forestall all this.

    So yeah; sue us for wanting to foster greater involvement in the electoral process to try and keep things like the current collapse into Evangelical Christian nationalist fascism from getting any worse.

    It isn't even a de-rail. It's about action on this exact topic. If you're telling me that the mid-term elections aren't important in addressing getting abortion rights back on the table, I'm gonna ask what the fuck you're smoking.


  19. #3399
    @Endus

    I respect your opinion more than most on here. But here is the thing, we have gone round and round on that repeatedly on multiple threads derailing it with this and it gets nowhere.

    No one will budge and it’s not productive at all and derails at this point.

    The voters have a small about of blame to take and I openly admit that but not the bulk of it or even close to it which people here can’t seem to admit.

    Rehashing this 20 times won’t do anything or get us anywhere at this point.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  20. #3400
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It isn't even a de-rail. It's about action on this exact topic. If you're telling me that the mid-term elections aren't important in addressing getting abortion rights back on the table, I'm gonna ask what the fuck you're smoking.
    I don't even understand how you would disentangle the results of the 2016 election from the overturning of Roe v. Wade, especially given Trump had the most Supreme Court justices appointed since Reagan in 1987. The current state of the SCOTUS, and the push to dismantle all progress made in America over the last 50~ years, is clearly a consequence of that election as it provided Republicans the power to enact their will.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

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