1. #4401
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/florid...ticles&via=rss



    That moment when you're not "sufficiently mature" enough to give informed consent for abortion services because you're a 16 year old girl, but you're apparently "sufficiently mature" as a 16 year old girl to raise a child.

    Oh, and she doesn't have parents and lives with relatives with an appointed guardian.

    Thise is the hell that Republicans and conservatives want to force girls to endure.
    I wonder what Florida will do with the kid (or the tens of thousands) that will be put up for adoption soon.

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  2. #4402
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    She states to the court that the guardian is ready to consent to whatever choice she makes, but does not communicate that consent in proper legal fashion to the court (ie hearsay doesn’t count as proof). The original judge made that much obvious, and she naturally wins her petition when she redoes it. That’s why Florida provides a free lawyer for it, which she did not take advantage of.
    So a girl who's not mature enough to understand the legal system is also mature enough to raise a baby, gotcha. That's the subtext of the ruling as well, btw. She's mature enough to recognize that she's not ready to bear and raise a child, but not quite mature enough to do so the proper way so there's just nothing that can be done but to force her to carry the child until she can figure out our legal system as a immature 16 year old.

    The whole problem rests on -

    However, Judges Harvey Jay and Rachel Nordby wrote in the main decision that the trial court found the teen “had not established by clear and convincing evidence that she was sufficiently mature to decide whether to terminate her pregnancy.”
    The consequence is that she won't be a teen mother who is woefully unprepared to raise a baby, furthering her own hardship and suffering as she struggles to provide for herself and a child as a single teenage mother without parents.

    But hey, if we can just blame her for now jumping through legal loopholes that's a way better alternative!

  3. #4403
    Bloodsail Admiral tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    So a girl who's not mature enough to understand the legal system is also mature enough to raise a baby, gotcha. That's the subtext of the ruling as well, btw.
    Not actually, no. This is about exceptions to a parental notification law, not a litmus test of who's mature enough to raise children. In fact, adoption frequently fits the bill for mothers that don't wish to raise their babies.

    She's mature enough to recognize that she's not ready to bear and raise a child, but not quite mature enough to do so the proper way so there's just nothing that can be done but to force her to carry the child until she can figure out our legal system as a immature 16 year old.
    My post says the exact opposite. The petition is for exemption from notification, both claiming she's mature enough to make the decision without adult consultation, and that her guardian stands by her ability to make that choice. Clearly you have some kind of devotion to forced-birth narratives.

    The consequence is that she won't be a teen mother who is woefully unprepared to raise a baby, furthering her own hardship and suffering as she struggles to provide for herself and a child as a single teenage mother without parents.

    But hey, if we can just blame her for now jumping through legal loopholes that's a way better alternative!
    She needn't care for it beyond the date of delivery, but let's get back to the point you're continually evading.She wins her petition if she doesn't state hearsay about her guardian's opinion, but has it properly prepared in writing before the court.

    She returns to court with a notarized letter from her guardian. Done deal. It's clear enough from the original judge's decision, who showed no prejudice against her making a better petition to the court.

    If I was as driven by agenda as you appear to be, I might suggest that you wish to cut out protections from vulnerable teens by requiring no evidentiary standard when they go before a court and tell the judge how their parents or guardians think and feel. You see, we should always trust teenagers to be completely honest in making representations of what they've heard from others. Yep, the best course is to cut parents out from important life decisions from their daughters, rather--sons and daughters and neithers. Only then may we be truly sure that the specter of forced birth never rears its ugly head.

    Come off the soap box and let the petitioner redraft the petition, and learn that checking the box for not obtaining free counsel is a bad move. She's set back a week, not 30 weeks and a delivered baby.
    Last edited by tehdang; 2022-08-16 at 08:35 PM.
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  4. #4404
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    In fact, adoption frequently fits the bill for mothers that don't wish to raise their babies.
    Can we stop this extremely dishonest bullshit? Nobody is adopting these children, even the people who show up to protests with signs reading, "WE WILL ADOPT YOUR CHILD!"

    And with the ongoing state of our adoption systems within states, it's basically just attempting to morally justify child negligence while keeping your (the royal you) conscious clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Clearly you have some kind of devotion to forced-birth narratives.
    What's the ruling, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    She needn't care for it beyond the date of delivery
    Sure, that's exactly how it works I guess. But the 9 months up to then when it's causing health complications she may not be able to afford? Tough shit, 16 year old girl!

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    She wins her petition if she doesn't state hearsay about her guardian's opinion, but has it properly prepared in writing before the court. If I was as driven by agenda as you, I might suggest that you wish to cut out protections from vulnerable teens by requiring no evidentiary standard when they go before a court and tell the judge how their parents or guardians think and feel.
    Given this unique situation, I think binary laws that don't allow any context to factor into a decision are regressive, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Yep, the best course is to cut parents out from important life decisions from their daughters
    She doesn't have parents. She stays with relatives and is a ward of the state, technically. I wonder if that has anything to do with it, what with the states official positions on abortion and whatnot.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    only then may we be truly sure that the specter of forced birth never rears its ugly head.
    Reminder: Republicans spent weeks denying a story about a 10 year old girl needing to cross state lines for abortion services after a rape, and when the story was verified pivoted to attacking the doctor that provided care to the terrified girl and ended a pregnancy that could have caused serious harm to the small child.

    It's literally not a specter. It's literally what many Republicans have on the books, or are trying to pass as laws/state Constitutional Amendments right now. And, despite all the high minded talk of "states rights" continue to have open discussions regarding national abortion access bans and even bans on birth control.

  5. #4405
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    I wonder what Florida will do with the kid (or the tens of thousands) that will be put up for adoption soon.
    Florida is the only state in the south where women can get legal abortion up to 15 weeks.

    DeSantis shows no interest in changing that. Probably has something to do with his presidential ambition.

    Even within the state, overturning Roe vs. Wade was not popular.

    Florida is considered a Republican stronghold. But after the statehouse passed the 15-week abortion ban in February, 57% of a sample of registered voters said they opposed the law, while 34% supported it, according to a poll by the University of North Florida.

    A more recent poll of Florida residents conducted by the University of South Florida in July showed that 57% of Floridians disapproved of the recent Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade and one-third of respondents said the state should protect abortion rights.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2022-08-16 at 08:41 PM.

  6. #4406
    Bloodsail Admiral tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Can we stop this extremely dishonest bullshit? Nobody is adopting these children, even the people who show up to protests with signs reading, "WE WILL ADOPT YOUR CHILD!"

    And with the ongoing state of our adoption systems within states, it's basically just attempting to morally justify child negligence while keeping your (the royal you) conscious clean.
    Adoptions occur at a rate over a hundred thousand a year. I wish your ideology didn't have to erase newborn adoption to comport with your stances.

    What's the ruling, again?
    You're acting like the judge decided she had to carry it to term. That's not the ruling. The lower court ruling was narrowly decided against her, for small reasons that are easily rectified (if she is being honest in her petition, that is).

    Sure, that's exactly how it works I guess. But the 9 months up to then when it's causing health complications she may not be able to afford? Tough shit, 16 year old girl!
    So we've gone from lying about being forced to raise the child, to hypotheticals about health effects in the late term of an abortion. I'd like an admission of wrong from you as you withdraw the talking point, before we go to another one you might as quickly abandon.

    Given this unique situation, I think binary laws that don't allow any context to factor into a decision are regressive, yes.
    I don't think any judge should accept hearsay evidence, including from minor children, just because you consider the situation unique. Re-submit with her claims about the guardian actually coming from the guardian in writing. Easy fix.

    She doesn't have parents. She stays with relatives and is a ward of the state, technically. I wonder if that has anything to do with it, what with the states official positions on abortion and whatnot.
    Parents and guardians. She made representations of what her guardian thought in her petition. I didn't hear any claim that the guardian does not agree, and is mistreating her. If you happen across such evidence, please share.

    Reminder: Republicans spent weeks denying a story about a 10 year old girl needing to cross state lines for abortion services after a rape, and when the story was verified pivoted to attacking the doctor that provided care to the terrified girl and ended a pregnancy that could have caused serious harm to the small child.

    It's literally not a specter. It's literally what many Republicans have on the books, or are trying to pass as laws/state Constitutional Amendments right now. And, despite all the high minded talk of "states rights" continue to have open discussions regarding national abortion access bans and even bans on birth control.
    Here we go again about how current issue, parental consent laws in Florida, are just like evil bigots attacking doctors in Indiana and Ohio. Whatever you want to do to get out of discussing the clear downsides on how you wish justice functioned. I'll just add that if she was raped by an illegal alien, or if her relative or legal guardian was shielding her rapist, I will revise my stance on applicability. I don't give fringe voices special influence on considering exemptions to specific laws.
    Last edited by tehdang; 2022-08-16 at 08:51 PM.
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  7. #4407
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Adoptions occur at a rate over a hundred thousand a year.
    That's an order of magnitude too low. Adoptions are not enough. I don't think they ever were.

  8. #4408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    That's an order of magnitude too low. Adoptions are not enough. I don't think they ever were.
    There's hundreds of thousands of kids in foster care, and many of them will never be adopted. There isn't a high enough demand for children, and potential adoptive parents are often choosy to boot, for fairly obviously bigoted reasons.


  9. #4409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's hundreds of thousands of kids in foster care, and many of them will never be adopted. There isn't a high enough demand for children, and potential adoptive parents are often choosy to boot, for fairly obviously bigoted reasons.
    Indeed. 2021 was an exception, but abortions are overall on a decline. But even after decades of decline, they're still far higher than adoptions. Maybe if alt-right religioius fanatics took over, they could force abortions so low adoptions could cover the rest, but at the current rate of decline it'd be decades.

  10. #4410
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Yep, the best course is to cut parents out from important life decisions from their daughters, rather--sons and daughters and neithers. Only then may we be truly sure that the specter of forced birth never rears its ugly head.
    I was wondering how long it was going to take before the right wing posters in this thread started up with their "children are fundamentally the property of their parents" angle.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2022-08-16 at 09:13 PM.
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  11. #4411
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I was wondering how long it was going to take before the right wing posters in this thread started up with their "children are fundamentally the property of their parents" angle.
    Which is a bit ironic considering their stance on abortion...
    8

  12. #4412
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    Which is a bit ironic considering their stance on abortion...
    Yep.

    And hypocrisy aside, "parental rights" are legal constructs based in the assumption that parents will by default act in the best interests of their offspring. You do not have an inherent right "to be involved in important life decisions" if you cannot demonstrate that you'll act in your kids' best interests, which right wing people consistently fail to do when it comes to situations like underaged pregnancy, sex ed, or being a parent of a queer child. Or even shit as basic as history education, as we're seeing in places like Florida.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2022-08-16 at 09:17 PM.
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  13. #4413
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    That's an order of magnitude too low. Adoptions are not enough. I don't think they ever were.
    And that's with legal abortion. Adding many more children to the system would only add further strains on the system with no guarantees of there being more prospective parents for them.
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  14. #4414
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Here we go again about how current issue, parental consent laws in Florida, are just like evil bigots attacking doctors in Indiana and Ohio.
    Considering how often parental consent laws are being used as an excuse for bigoted parents to continue neglecting and abusing their LGBT children in recent years? Yes, I will assume that stories involving those laws coming from Republican states involve bigotry and ignorance until it's demonstrated otherwise. That way, if they don't, I can be pleasantly surprised. The right in this country lost the benefit of the doubt on these issues ages ago...if they ever had it in the first place.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-08-16 at 10:30 PM.

  15. #4415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Florida is the only state in the south where women can get legal abortion up to 15 weeks.

    DeSantis shows no interest in changing that. Probably has something to do with his presidential ambition.

    Even within the state, overturning Roe vs. Wade was not popular.
    Not to mention how is a 16 year old gonna handle the medical debt from forced birth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Indeed. 2021 was an exception, but abortions are overall on a decline. But even after decades of decline, they're still far higher than adoptions. Maybe if alt-right religioius fanatics took over, they could force abortions so low adoptions could cover the rest, but at the current rate of decline it'd be decades.
    2020. People had, um, er, a lot of...free time on their hands. Or not on their hands as the case maybe.
    Kinda like how births used to be more prevalent in the fall in northern states. What else were you going to do during the winter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  16. #4416
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...46452.html?amp

    A woman in Louisiana said that she has been told that she must carry a fetus without a skull and part of its head to term or travel out of state to recieve an abortion.

    Nancy Davis, a mother of one, is 13 weeks pregnant. Several weeks ago, an initial ultrasound revelead to Ms Davis that the fetus would have no chance of surviving — but because Louisiana’s abortion ban does not include an exception for acrania, the condition the fetus is suffering from, she cannot get a legal abortion in the state.

    If Ms Davis does want to get an abortion, she will have to travel out of state to Florida. But time is running out for her to make a decision: Florida has banned abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy, giving Ms Davis a small window to schedule an appointment and arrange her travel should she decide to get the procedure.
    This is the forced pregnancy hell that Republicans want to inflict upon girls and women.

    Being forced to carry a fetus to term with the full knowledge that when fully developed and born, the baby will have no chance of surviving and at best will have a short, painful death. All while the woman is forced to accept that knowledge as she remains pregnant for upwards of dozens of weeks and deals with the side effects and health complications.

    Republicans. Want. To. Force. Women. To. Be. Baby. Machines.

    In a separate case in Louisiana, also linked in the article, a doctor was not allowed to perform a routine second-trimester medical procedure to remove a non-viable fetus to protect the health of the mother - https://twitter.com/samkarlin/status...16888831098881

    The procedure would have lasted 15 minutes.

    The result? She had to induce to deliver the fetus.

    She suffered for hours of painful delivery pains for the nonviable fetus and against her wishes. She was emotionally traumatized by not having bodily autonomy and being forced to carry out a cruel, inhumane progress.

    Oh, and she lost a liter of blood because of hemorrhaging that was avoidable.

    This is the torture Republicans are fine forcing many women to endure.

  17. #4417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I was wondering how long it was going to take before the right wing posters in this thread started up with their "children are fundamentally the property of their parents" angle.
    Just the second worst manifestation of "kids are property" I saw this week.


    First being the Kids Division of the USA Mullet Championships.
    https://mulletchamp.com/2022-kids-division-voting/

    Some of the names are more tragic than the haircuts.
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  18. #4418
    Quote Originally Posted by Midterm Voter View Post
    First being the Kids Division of the USA Mullet Championships.
    https://mulletchamp.com/2022-kids-division-voting/

    Some of the names are more tragic than the haircuts.
    This might be worse than the abuse I've seen on Dance Moms and Toddlers in Tiaras. Where the fuck is child protective services when they're needed most.

    But real, regional names gonna be regional and the kids look like they're having fun be kids.

  19. #4419
    Republican state Rep. Neal Collins told South Carolina's House Judiciary Committee that he would not be voting on a ban that only has exceptions for saving the life of the mother. The bill provides no provisions for victims of rape or incest.

    Collins revealed that he had sleepless nights after learning that doctors refused to extract the fetus from a 19-year-old woman whose water broke at 15 weeks of pregnancy.

    Doctors told Collins there was a "greater than 50% chance that she's going to lose her uterus."

    He said there was also a 10% chance that the woman could die of sepsis.

    "That weighs on me," Collins remarked. "I voted for that bill. These are affecting people and we're having a meeting about this. That whole week I did not sleep."

    The lawmaker's voice cracked as he explained that the woman had to wait two weeks before the fetus could be extracted without a beating heart.

    "What we do matters," Collins said, pausing to collect himself. "Out of respect for the process, I'm not voting today. But I want it to be clear that myself and many others are not in a position to vote for this bill without significant changes to the bill."

    At that point, the committee chair cut off Collins and asked for a vote on the bill, which the committee approved.



  20. #4420
    Kudos to him for at least having an open enough mind to acknowledge the harm he and his party are causing many girls and women.

    It's a shockingly, depressingly low bar and it's pathetic that we need to give credit to anyone for clearing it, but this is the absolute state of things.

    Amazing what happens when a Republican finally realizes the kind of harm they're causing people when voting for these extremist positions. I hope he can get some sleep now, but that his week of sleepless nights causes him to consider his other positions and votes and whether or not they result in similar harm being caused to people.

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