1. #5021
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    I'm against the DP too, but I'm sure you can agree that someone can blow an intruders brains out of they come into your home and threaten your family. That's an exception not the rule.

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    The MA pill isn't an abortion.... It's just super concentrated birth control
    So let me get this right. If a female took a pill it's not murder. But if it's a medical procedure it is? Can we get some consistancy here?
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  2. #5022
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    No, words have a meaning, you cannot just invent new meanings for words. If the MA ends a pregnancy it is an abortion.
    MA prevents pregnancy not end it.

  3. #5023
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Once it's implanted in a womb and begins mitosis then yes
    So it's not when the sperm enters the egg?
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  4. #5024
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    You continue to argue that murder is bad, except in some circumstances where the same murder is actually just fine.

    My position remains as rock solid and firm as a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus.
    Yeah that's what an exception is...

  5. #5025
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Yeah that's what an exception is...
    Your exceptions make no consistent or logical sense.
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  6. #5026
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Once it's implanted in a womb and begins mitosis then yes
    So, it's not a human. You just expanded your definition of a human by adding the womb requirement.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  7. #5027
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    So it's not when the sperm enters the egg?
    That's just part one. Of conception part two is implantation of the uterus

    I know I said the former before but I wasn't talking about I'm vitro then.

    Only way u gonna stop implantation naturally is via the MA pill.

  8. #5028
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    So it's not when the sperm enters the egg?
    Thank you, exactly.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  9. #5029
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Yeah that's what an exception is...
    I don't have "exceptions" to murder, you do. I continue to point out that you hold contradictory views.

  10. #5030
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    So, it's not a human. You just expanded your definition of a human by adding the womb requirement.
    Right, but I haven't been talking about in vitro this whole time.

    Someone who is doing in vitro is trying to get pregnant so that's irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I don't have "exceptions" to murder, you do. I continue to point out that you hold contradictory views.
    U gonna let a burglar threaten your family? Lol wtf???

    Fucking guys hold a knife to your baby you not gonna paint the wall with his brains if you get the chance ?

  11. #5031
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    That's just part one. Of conception part two is implantation of the uterus

    I know I said the former before but I wasn't talking about I'm vitro then.

    Only way u gonna stop implantation naturally is via the MA pill.
    So your definition was incomplete? Again?

    OrangeJoe asked when sperm becomes human and... let's check the files... ah, here we go.

    When a single sperm of millions it carries merges with an egg.
    What's up with that?
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  12. #5032
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    That's just part one. Of conception part two is implantation of the uterus

    I know I said the former before but I wasn't talking about I'm vitro then.

    Only way u gonna stop implantation naturally is via the MA pill.
    Can you show me a science paper that say conception is a 2 stage process? At what point does stage 2 start and end? Is there a stage 3? Why is it now more of a human at stage 2 and not stage 1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Right, but I haven't been talking about in vitro this whole time.

    Someone who is doing in vitro is trying to get pregnant so that's irrelevant.

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    U gonna let a burglar threaten your family? Lol wtf???

    Fucking guys hold a knife to your baby you not gonna paint the wall with his brains if you get the chance ?
    Not trying to speak for edge but 99.9% sure self defense isn't murder
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  13. #5033
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    U gonna let a burglar threaten your family? Lol wtf???

    Fucking guys hold a knife to your baby you not gonna paint the wall with his brains if you get the chance ?
    What zygotes are holding knives to a girl/woman's throat?

  14. #5034
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Someone who is doing in vitro is trying to get pregnant so that's irrelevant.
    The real question is:

    A Planned Parenthood clinic is on fire. You can go inside and carry out the fridge of petri dishes, saving hundreds if not thousands of humans, or you can save maybe one or two people. What do you do?
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  15. #5035
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Let's look at freedom of speech and right to privacy.

    Both are absolute, but both have exceptions.
    That's a contradiction. A right can't both be "absolute" and "restricted". The reality is that all freedoms have limitations.

    For speech, you can't say things like "fire" or "bomb" in a crowded space. But you apply that exception to everyday life then you have rampant censorship of speech.
    And the realistic way to interpret that is that the "right to free speech" is not, by definition, absolute; it has clear limits, largely predicated on the "harm principle", where said speech causes undue harm to others. See also defamation, child porn, etc.

    For the 4th amendment, the government. Isn't allow to walk into your home with our a warrant. An exception would be in hot pursuit of a criminal who breaks into a home.
    Again, you're literally acknowledging the limits of the right, and that it is not absolute.

    You're the only one here thinking in black-and-white terms. That you're thinking in "black and white, but also exceptions" just means your position is also inherently contradictory and neurotic.

    Abortion is a perfect example to apply the exception as the rule.

    Now we have perfectly viable pregnancies from sexually consenting mothers who are more than capable of raising the child.
    Except the "rule" here is that "bodily autonomy of a person shall not be abrogated for the needs of another person, even if those needs are to preserve that other person's life".

    If you want to argue an exception to that premise, you're gonna have to make that argument, and you haven't even tried. Note that the premise inherently denies "the other person has a right to life" as grounds for an exception, since if that qualified, we'd permit the harvesting of healthy organs and tissue against the individual's will to save the lives of others. We clearly don't. Because right to life is not considered higher right than bodily autonomy, that would justify trumping the latter.

    Because many pro choicers wouldn't think twice to kill a healthy baby if they had all the resources I'm the world just because they want to.
    We're not talking about healthy babies in the first place. Also, to make the point, if a baby needed a blood transfusion to live, and I was literally the only person in the world who had the right blood to save them, I still can't be forced to donate that blood to save that actual child. Right to life never trumps right to bodily autonomy. If you want to argue that abortion should be an exception to that principle, the onus lies on you to make that case, on some grounds other than right to life, which has already been considered and denied in all cases.


  16. #5036
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Because many pro choicers wouldn't think twice to kill a healthy baby if they had all the resources I'm the world just because they want to.

    How is that any different that cold blood murder?
    I've never seen anyone claim to ever want to kill a baby. And a fetus != baby.

    But you didn't respond to my post at all. Just claimed people wanted to baby murder.

    So what's your actual response to this:

    I probably wouldn't be pro-life at my core, as I still believe in people's right to bodily autonomy. For instance, you can't be forced to give up a liver for someone dying of liver disease. Why should a womb be forced to carry a fetus to term?

    But I would be much more sympathetic and much less opposed to pro-life if the pro-lifers demonstrated that they actually cared about the life they were bringing into this world through force.

    But we both know that isn't true. And it never will be. The pro-life movement in the USA has its roots in controlling women and their bodies, and will never actually be about life. So why is this hypothetical an important question?
    Do you find some kind of comraderie or solace in knowing that someone who is pro-choice would be more open to anti-abortion law if it came with significant compensation and care for the mother and child for the first several years of the child's life?

    Again, this is just a fairy tale. Pro-lifers would never in a million years, as a movement as a whole, don't care about "life". Maybe 5% would want to fund life after birth. And that's being super generous.

    As George Carlin famously said,

    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  17. #5037
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    So your definition was incomplete? Again?

    OrangeJoe asked when sperm becomes human and... let's check the files... ah, here we go.



    What's up with that?
    Not taking Iv Into account

    Once natural fertilization happens the egg is going to implant

  18. #5038
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Not taking Iv Into account

    Once natural fertilization happens the egg is going to implant
    That's not the answer you gave me.
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  19. #5039
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    That's not the answer you gave me.
    Look I'm driving and have the entire thread responding to me so kinda hard to keep track

    *****************

    Just answer this guys

    If we could have the best possible adoption and single mother welfare and resource system imaginable with the best possible sex ed and access to contraceptives.

    Would you guys flip, yes or no?

  20. #5040
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Just answer this guys

    If we could have the best possible adoption and single mother welfare and resource system imaginable with the best possible sex ed and access to contraceptives.

    Would you guys flip, yes or no?
    Why do you keep expecting any answer beyond, "We respect bodily autonomy."? It doesn't matter how you reframe the question to try to get a different answer, it's going to be the same answer.

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