SCOTUS removes Roe V Wade

[Orange Joe]

So simplify it then

It cant get much simpler unless you are mentally disabled.

[Xyonai]

Look I'm driving and have the entire thread responding to me so kinda hard to keep track

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Just answer this guys

If we could have the best possible adoption and single mother welfare and resource system imaginable with the best possible sex ed and access to contraceptives.

Would you guys flip, yes or no?

No, because there are still instances outside of those cases where medical abortions are nessesary to save the mother's life.

As a recent example: Popular Streamer Adiranna Chechik broke her back attending Twitch Con earlier this year, after jumping onto a concrete floor beneath a foam pit, even after staff assured her it was safe enough to jump into, and had to get surgery to repair her spine. During the procedure, she discovers she's pregnant and the only way the doctors can fix her spine is to terminate her pregnancy. She agrees, gets the fetus removed and finished her surgery so she can be able to walk normally again.

This story is 100% real, you can look it up yourself, but if she had broken her back and attempted to get it fixed in any of the states with abortion bans, there's a good chance she'd still be saddled with crippling injuries or be forced to leave the state for the procedure.

[Edge-]

No, because there are still instances outside of those cases where medical abortions are nessesary to save the mother's life.

As a recent example: Popular Streamer Adiranna Chechik broke her back attending Twitch Con earlier this year, after jumping onto a concrete floor beneath a foam pit, even after staff assured her it was safe enough to jump into, and had to get surgery to repair her spine. During the procedure, she discovers she's pregnant and the only way the doctors can fix her spine is to terminate her pregnancy. She agrees, gets the fetus removed and finished her surgery so she can be able to walk normally again.

This story is 100% real, you can look it up yourself, but if she had broken her back and attempted to get it fixed in any of the states with abortion bans, there's a good chance she'd still be saddled with crippling injuries or be forced to leave the state for the procedure.

Worth noting: She was not assured it was "safe" and streamers had to sign liability wavers before participating. That being said that doesn't excuse the hilariously unsafe "foam pit". Yes, she and others were dumb for just jumping in, but it's the company that ran the booth and their event team for fucking up the safety conditions.

This is in no way to blame her, multiple streamers were injured even just by being knocked off including a few other fairly serious injuries. But some of the streamers do bear partial (key word partial) responsibility for their irresponsible behavior given the waiver they signed and rules they agreed to (which specifically forbade jumping in as she did but like...what the fuck did they expect people were going to do at a foam pit?)

[Endus]

Just answer this guys

If we could have the best possible adoption and single mother welfare and resource system imaginable with the best possible sex ed and access to contraceptives.

Would you guys flip, yes or no?

The existence of all those things would be great. But nothing about any part of it would ever create any justification for denying women their basic human rights, and that's what pro-life positions require. You haven't given me even a hint of a reason to "flip", and it really just feels like you don't understand the fundamental questions in play.

[Varx]

No, that's an answer. Health care decisions are between an individual and their doctor(s), not the individual, their doctor(s), and their local politician.

So no out of spite to the government, despite having the best of everything and predicted to having a healthy pregnancy

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The existence of all those things would be great. But nothing about any part of it would ever create any justification for denying women their basic human rights, and that's what pro-life positions require. You haven't given me even a hint of a reason to "flip", and it really just feels like you don't understand the fundamental questions in play.

No I do understand them, I just feel like "right to bodily autonomy doesn't apply to perfectly viable and consensual pregnancies.

You wanna fuck up your body with drugs and w/e be by guest. But I don't see pregnancy like that.

But I understand the adoption and financial inability arguments to a certain extent, even if I don't fully agree.

So with that being said, it's just a matter of a difference in values. life being the correct one of a perfect civilized society.

[Edge-]

So no out of spite to the government

I didn't say that, you did.

despite having the best of everything and predicted to having a healthy pregnancy

No, because that's all irrelevant and you can't seem to grasp that fact.

[Varx]

No, because there are still instances outside of those cases where medical abortions are nessesary to save the mother's life.

As a recent example: Popular Streamer Adiranna Chechik broke her back attending Twitch Con earlier this year, after jumping onto a concrete floor beneath a foam pit, even after staff assured her it was safe enough to jump into, and had to get surgery to repair her spine. During the procedure, she discovers she's pregnant and the only way the doctors can fix her spine is to terminate her pregnancy. She agrees, gets the fetus removed and finished her surgery so she can be able to walk normally again.

This story is 100% real, you can look it up yourself, but if she had broken her back and attempted to get it fixed in any of the states with abortion bans, there's a good chance she'd still be saddled with crippling injuries or be forced to leave the state for the procedure.

For the millionth time I'm for the exception to the life of the mother.

[Xyonai]

Worth noting: She was not assured it was "safe" and streamers had to sign liability wavers before participating. That being said that doesn't excuse the hilariously unsafe "foam pit". Yes, she and others were dumb for just jumping in, but it's the company that ran the booth and their event team for fucking up the safety conditions.

This is in no way to blame her, multiple streamers were injured even just by being knocked off including a few other fairly serious injuries. But some of the streamers do bear partial (key word partial) responsibility for their irresponsible behavior given the waiver they signed and rules they agreed to (which specifically forbade jumping in as she did but like...what the fuck did they expect people were going to do at a foam pit?)

Fair do fair do. The rest of my point still stands, unless someone's gonna be dumb enough to nitpick her partial culpability in her own injuries as the reason she should've helped onto her pregnancy rather than try and not live with crippling pain.

[Cthulhu 2020]

But that's what I said with my hypotheticals

So you would flip then, good for you!

Next?

I said I would be more open to the idea of it, and be less opposed. But I certainly wouldn't "Flip". I still hold that bodily autonomy is a much greater right than someone's right to life. If we start putting "preserving life" over "bodily autonomy" then your relatives could start claiming your spare organs for themselves when they need a kidney. Because of course, you've put preserving life as more important than your own bodily autonomy.

I'm sure the right loves right to life more than bodily autonomy. Because most of them have never and will never be faced with a situation where their bodily autonomy has been or would be violated to protect someone else's life.

After all, the law codifies the protection of your organs... except for the uterus in some states.

[Varx]

I didn't say that, you did.



No, because that's all irrelevant and you can't seem to grasp that fact.

No I do. But saying no out of pure "right to bodily autonomy" is nuts.

And when I say that I mean pregnancy, idc how else you wanna fuck up your body, whether it'd be tattoos, piercings, drugs, have at you

But with pregnancy you're no longer dealing with just your body

[Edge-]

For the millionth time I'm for the exception to the life of the mother.

But her life wasn't at risk is the point. She could live with the spinal damage, just not well, you know? But not life threatening. I guess there are more exceptions than you're willing to admit to?

Also, is the fetus holding a knife to her throat?

[Xyonai]

For the millionth time I'm for the exception to the life of the mother.

Well no one passing these laws is, and that's the reality we live in; enabling restrictions at all beyond 'is the baby viable? Then no abortion!' just leads to dipshits legislating that any and all abortion for any reason whatsoever is evil and has to be punished, or leaving laws so vaguely worded that medical personnel feel like they can't do their jobs without being fined, sued, or arrested.

It really is an 'all or nothing' situation.

[Varx]

I said I would be more open to the idea of it, and be less opposed. But I certainly wouldn't "Flip". I still hold that bodily autonomy is a much greater right than someone's right to life. If we start putting "preserving life" over "bodily autonomy" then your relatives could start claiming your spare organs for themselves when they need a kidney. Because of course, you've put preserving life as more important than your own bodily autonomy.

I'm sure the right loves right to life more than bodily autonomy. Because most of them have never and will never be faced with a situation where their bodily autonomy has been or would be violated to protect someone else's life.

That organ argument bis silly.

Pregnancy is completely natural. Organ donation isn't, though amazing in practice.

Donating for charity is amazing too but you don't have to be forced to do it.

[Edge-]

No I do. But saying no out of pure "right to bodily autonomy" is nuts.

It's not. It's the same as people having bodily autonomy in every other regard, even when they're dead.

You died and have perfectly good organs that can save lives? Too bad, unless you agreed to donate your organs they can't be touched.
You have a rare blood type that could save thousands with occasional donations? Too bad, you cannot be compelled to donate blood no matter what the circumstances.

Again, it's consistency, something you seem to struggle with.

And when I say that I mean pregnancy, idc how else you wanna fuck up your body, whether it'd be tattoos, piercings, drugs, have at you

But with pregnancy you're no longer dealing with just your body

You are dealing with just your own body. You're removing something unwanted from your body.

[Varx]

Well no one passing these laws is, and that's the reality we live in; enabling restrictions at all beyond 'is the baby viable? Then no abortion!' just leads to dipshits legislating that any and all abortion for any reason whatsoever is evil and has to be punished, or leaving laws so vaguely worded that medical personnel feel like they can't do their jobs without being fined, sued, or arrested.

It really is an 'all or nothing' situation.

Some are. Not all conservative are ibut bags.

[Edge-]

Some are. Not all conservative are ibut bags.

Who is? What states is this happening?

[Varx]

It's not. It's the same as people having bodily autonomy in every other regard, even when they're dead.

You died and have perfectly good organs that can save lives? Too bad, unless you agreed to donate your organs they can't be touched.
You have a rare blood type that could save thousands with occasional donations? Too bad, you cannot be compelled to donate blood no matter what the circumstances.

Again, it's consistency, something you seem to struggle with.



You are dealing with just your own body. You're removing something unwanted from your body.

See and that's where we differ and won't ever see eye to eye.

You're convinced that a fetus isn't a human life and is just merely an inconvenience.And honestly I don't blame you for it. I blame democrats, the media, Hollywood, and quite frankly living in a privileged era.

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Who is? What states is this happening?

I dunno, man. I'm just saying not all conservatives are part of that insane hive mind.

[Cthulhu 2020]

That organ argument bis silly.

Pregnancy is completely natural. Organ donation isn't, though amazing in practice.

Donating for charity is amazing too but you don't have to be forced to do it.

It's not silly at all. After all, you are putting up your own right to bodily autonomy against someone else's right to life.

Organ transplants are completely natural. One, because humans are part of the natural world, and two there has been evidence suggesting that organ transplants have existed for hundreds of years or more. On top of that, transplanting organs is an effective means of preserving failing life, meaning that nature has accepted it as a means of preserving life. If it wasn't natural, our bodies would reject other people's organs completely, and not just due to incorrect blood or tissue type.

You want to hand wave it away because you don't like that I am correct. Aprox. 250,000 people in the Americas per year die from kidney failure. Everyone has an extra kidney. If we made kidney donations compulsory, we could save a lot of lives!


But as I have correctly pointed out, this is not about preserving life. You don't give a shit about those living humans who die every year to kidney failure.

It's about controlling women's bodies.

[Varx]

It's not silly at all. After all, you are putting up your own right to bodily autonomy against someone else's right to life.

Organ transplants are completely natural. One, because humans are part of the natural world, and two there has been evidence suggesting that organ transplants have existed for hundreds of years or more. On top of that, transplanting organs is an effective means of preserving failing life, meaning that nature has accepted it as a means of preserving life. If it wasn't natural, our bodies would reject other people's organs completely, and not just due to incorrect blood or tissue type.

You want to hand wave it away because you don't like that I am correct. Aprox. 250,000 people in the Americas per year die from kidney failure. Everyone has an extra kidney. If we made kidney donations compulsory, we could save a lot of lives!


But as I have correctly pointed out, this is not about preserving life. You don't give a shit about those living humans who die every year to kidney failure.

It's about controlling women's bodies.

No they're not.

Transplants are a human invention. There's nothing natural about it. nOt saying I'm against them, but it's not the same as pregnancy.

And for me it's about giving the child a chance to control their body.

[Edge-]

You're convinced that a fetus isn't a human life and is just merely an inconvenience.

Again, things I haven't said.

honestly I don't blame you for it. I blame democrats, the media, Hollywood, and quite frankly living in a privileged era.

No thanks, hun, I'm perfectly happy to take full responsibility and agency for my own beliefs.

I dunno, man. I'm just saying not all conservatives are part of that insane hive mind.

So is it happening or not? Because absent your showing us where it's happening, I'm inclined to believe you're making shit up.