1. #5461
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Way to twist my words.... Not once did i imply women can't opt out of sex while having sex
    When you claim consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, and that consent can't be revoked after being given, that is exactly what you're saying. I'll agree you're not implying it; you're coming right out and overtly stating it up-front.

    The scientific argument is that a fetus is a human being. It ain't a carrot, right?
    "Human being" isn't a scientific term. It's natural language, or it has a legal meaning, and the legal meaning explicitly doesn't work like you claim; a fetus is legally not a "human being", definitively.

    So, not a scientific argument at all, actually.


  2. #5462
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    We have a right to life because we live in a society. You wanna live in chaos like an animal?
    1) We are animals.
    2) And I don't live in a society where I actually have a right to live. America doesn't actually hold that as a right.
    3) Even if you do, or believe you do, that does not make a scientific argument against abortion. At most, you could argue it is non-religious, but given most people hold to a right to life because of religious reasons; I am going to say no.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  3. #5463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    it's based on that fact that conception creates a completely unique human with their own unique DNA blueprint. Nothing to o do with soil BS.
    Tumors have unique DNA. Are they people?

    Twins share DNA, so neither's DNA blueprint is unique. Are they not people?

    This just isn't an argument. It's nonsense. It's a cover story to hide the claims of a soul, which a tumor wouldn't have and twins would each have, unlike DNA blueprints.

    An egg and ovum come together to form a brand new human. Just because they haven't developing yet doesn't make them any less human. The day a fertilized egg turns into a an Xbox then I'll retract my statement.
    So? You haven't explained why this means anything.

    The egg becomes fertilized and then begins multiplying and growing because, hold your hat for this hot topic, ITS ALIVE.
    The gametes that combined to form that egg were also both alive. Why don't you hold the same position for sperm and ova that don't manage to combine with their counterparts? They're "human" too, after all.


  4. #5464
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    top g's
    It's really weird the terms that dudes will come up with to avoid calling another man "daddy".

  5. #5465
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Consent to sex is not consent to continuing a resulting pregnancy to term. That's literally not a thing, especially since we can terminate an unwanted pregnancy. You're making this shit up and refusing to acknowledge that consent isn't a switch that's flipped and can't be un-flipped, it's an active state that can be revoked at any moment.



    You have no argument as to why that would be the case. You absolutely can revoke consent to pregnancy; people do it all the time. You just don't want them to be able to, and you want to ignore their lack of consent and force them to bear to term.



    Literally a lie! Miscarriages are, medically, labelled as "spontaneous abortions". As opposed to "induced abortions", which are what you're ranting about. Miscarriages are abortions, and they absolutely happen naturally.

    You really don't have any basic grasp of these things, do you?



    So?

    Also, if you support exceptions for incest or rape, then we know you don't actually believe any of the nonsense you're saying about "it's a human life!" Why would we entertain nonsense maxims that you've admitted here that even you don't believe to be true?



    Not a child. You're back to stamping your foot and making appeals to emotion.



    Absolutely. But that's still not an argument against abortion, or an alternative to abortion rights.



    Why on Earth would I entertain the delusional and meritless idea of "biological responsibility"? It's a nonsense concept you invented, out of nothing. It does not exist.
    I knew you'd have the audacity to compare involuntary miscarriage to abortion. Just wanted you to say it. A miscarriage is caused by an unhealthy or unviable pregnancy. Not because someone made a.stupid decision or just doesn't want to deal with the burden of parenthood

    People only can because it's currently legal in some states. Key word, currently.

    I support exceptions because we live in a society which means there are always exceptions. But exceptions never make the rules, they define them.

    If we were living lawlessly then raped victims are sol. But thankfully we don't and we have benefits that separates us from the rest of life on earth. But that also means as a society we have responsibilities to own up to. Pregnancy being one.of them, or soon to be at least for the US.

  6. #5466
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    I knew you'd have the audacity to compare involuntary miscarriage to abortion. Just wanted you to say it. A miscarriage is caused by an unhealthy or unviable pregnancy. Not because someone made a.stupid decision or just doesn't want to deal with the burden of parenthood
    .
    Who in the hell told you that bull? That is not what a miscarriage is.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  7. #5467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    The issue is science does not know and may never have the capability of knowing when life begins specifically. Hell, science is still arguing on what exactly is life. To say, that you can "scientifically" argue that life begins at conception is just wrong. Science makes no such claim.
    If we can agree that organisms today are "alive", then biology actually can identify when life begins.

    The problem, here, is that this concept is "abiogenesis", and it's a reference to an occurence some 3.8 billion years ago. It's still indeterminate, both in exactly when and in the precise process.

    But procreation? That's a process by which life replicates. There's never a point of "un-life" in there which then "becomes alive". Every individual step is itself "alive", and that's been true for these past billions of years.

    Which is why it's so ridiculous to try and talk about "when life begins" with regards to abortion; "life" is just continuing, as it always has, for every species, in all of Earth's biological history. Life does not "begin" on the individual scale, it's merely replicated and transformed.


  8. #5468
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    It was technically "alive" before fertilization. And you can have multiplying cells, but be classified as "dead."

    You aren't as knowledgeable as you think you are.
    Before fertilization it's not a unique human. I'm not a lunatic who thinks male masterbation is genocide. An unfertilized egg is not a unique human.

    I dunno what situation a dead person still has multiplying cells unless I guess during the first few minutes or hours after death, but a growing baby wouldn't fall into that. Nice try.

    So yeah they're alive and growing. They're human.

  9. #5469
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Before fertilization it's not a unique human. I'm not a lunatic who thinks male masterbation is genocide. An unfertilized egg is not a unique human.

    I dunno what situation a dead person still has multiplying cells unless I guess during the first few minutes or hours after death, but a growing baby wouldn't fall into that. Nice try.

    So yeah they're alive and growing. They're human.
    We define death as the end of brain activity. The rest of the body may still function after the brain has died for actually surprisingly long periods of time. This isn't even getting into medical intervention that can keep a body alive after the brain is dead.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2023-01-25 at 06:46 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  10. #5470
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Before fertilization it's not a unique human.
    Biologically, it's not a unique human after fertilization either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    I dunno what situation a dead person still has multiplying cells unless I guess during the first few minutes or hours after death, but a growing baby wouldn't fall into that. Nice try.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    So yeah they're alive and growing. They're human.
    Or a tumor. It could absolutely be a tumor.

  11. #5471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    I knew you'd have the audacity to compare involuntary miscarriage to abortion. Just wanted you to say it. A miscarriage is caused by an unhealthy or unviable pregnancy. Not because someone made a.stupid decision or just doesn't want to deal with the burden of parenthood
    This is, again, a lie. Miscarriages of healthy pregnancies happen all the time. You have no idea what you're talking about. And miscarriages are abortions. Literally, definitively. The only difference is spontaneous vs induced.

    People only can because it's currently legal in some states. Key word, currently.
    Not really. Especially because the USA isn't the only country in the world. Banning abortion won't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe. We've been handling abortions for millenia. There's a description of abortion techniques in the Christian Bible (probably also the Torah? Same books, AFAIK, but I haven't read the Torah specifically).

    I support exceptions because we live in a society which means there are always exceptions. But exceptions never make the rules, they define them.
    That isn't how anything works. If you uphold an exception to a maxim, you don't believe the maxim. Any exception debunks the premise in question. You're just openly lying to us about your views, here.


  12. #5472
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    When you claim consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, and that consent can't be revoked after being given, that is exactly what you're saying. I'll agree you're not implying it; you're coming right out and overtly stating it up-front.



    "Human being" isn't a scientific term. It's natural language, or it has a legal meaning, and the legal meaning explicitly doesn't work like you claim; a fetus is legally not a "human being", definitively.

    So, not a scientific argument at all, actually.
    Okay homosapien then, w/e floats your boat. Just because a fetus is not a legal person yet for obvious reasons doesn't remove their right to life in a civilized society. I mean I don't have to tell you why a toddler.cant legally drink alcohol right? Despite being just as human as an adult.

  13. #5473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Before fertilization it's not a unique human.
    What about twins, triplets, quads, etc?

    They're not "unique humans", genetically. Why are you denying their humanity?


  14. #5474
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    I mean I don't have to tell you why a toddler.cant legally drink alcohol right? Despite being just as human as an adult.
    Yes actually, you should. Because we don't just arbitrarily do that, or because of some vague sense of morality. There are sound medical reasons to not keep your toddler drunk all the time.

    You really do pick the worst examples for your own arguments.

  15. #5475
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Tumors have unique DNA. Are they people?

    Twins share DNA, so neither's DNA blueprint is unique. Are they not people?

    This just isn't an argument. It's nonsense. It's a cover story to hide the claims of a soul, which a tumor wouldn't have and twins would each have, unlike DNA blueprints.



    So? You haven't explained why this means anything.



    The gametes that combined to form that egg were also both alive. Why don't you hold the same position for sperm and ova that don't manage to combine with their counterparts? They're "human" too, after all.
    Again with libs taking exceptions and using them as the rules.

    But I'll entertain you.

    Does a tumor grow into a sentient person with thoughts and feelings like a fetus does?

    Are twins one entity with a hive mind?

    And I'm the nonsensical one with arguments like these, top kek.

    Those gametes are just part of their person's, they're not living unique individuals.

    Keep it up lol

  16. #5476
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Okay homosapien then, w/e floats your boat.
    That's a species descriptor, not a statement of personhood. A 200,000-year-old Homo Sapiens fossil is "homo sapiens", but it's super dead and definitely not a person at this point, right? Even if it once was?

    This is what I keep driving at. You keep mis-using scientific terminology without understanding what it actually means.

    Just because a fetus is not a legal person yet for obvious reasons doesn't remove their right to life in a civilized society.
    What right to life? They absolutely do have to be a legal person to have legal rights, dude.

    Also, we've already been over how, even if we granted legal personhood, rights to bodily autonomy always trump another person's right to life. That's why you can't harvest organs or tissue against the donor's will, even to safe a life, even if the donor has just died and is no longer a legal person. You're denying women the same respect and protections we grant to a corpse. All in the name of religious extremism.


  17. #5477
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Who in the hell told you that bull? That is not what a miscarriage is.
    That's exactly what a miscarriage is. For what ever reason, the female's body cannot carry the baby.

  18. #5478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Again with libs taking exceptions and using them as the rules.
    Again, if your premises have exceptions, it's because your premises have been disproven and are false. Pushing them despite those exceptions just means you're lying.

    But I'll entertain you.

    Does a tumor grow into a sentient person with thoughts and feelings like a fetus does?
    An aborted fetus? No it doesn't. And no, I don't entertain hypothetical futures as a valid argument against decisions today.

    Are twins one entity with a hive mind?
    Your standard was "unique DNA blueprint". Don't move the goalposts just because your position has been proven ridiculous.

    Those gametes are just part of their person's, they're not living unique individuals.

    Keep it up lol
    Neither is a fetus.

    You keep making that kind of shit up.


  19. #5479
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    We define death as the end of brain activity. The rest of the body may still function after the brain has died for actually surprisingly long periods of time. This isn't even getting into medical intervention that can keep a body alive after the brain is dead.
    Um no death is defined as all bodily activity ceasing. If you wanna say brain dead sure. But true death is all body activity.

    Don't know why you even using this for this topic anyway. Stop reaching.

  20. #5480
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    That's exactly what a miscarriage is. For what ever reason, the female's body cannot carry the baby.
    In other words, an "abortion".

    Basic medical definitions really bother you, don't they?


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