1. #6361
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I already saw all the hatred shelled out to private crisis pregnancy centers on not voicing enough support for abortion
    The problem people have with crisis pregnancy centers is not that they're "insufficiently supportive of abortion."

    The problem is that they want to be treated as healthcare providers when their primary goal is steering women away from particular healthcare options they politically disagree with, and do so by means that are unethical in any healthcare setting including but not limited to harassment of their patients and trafficking in medical disinformation.

    No one is saying that anti-choice freaks shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions or offer services catered towards women who don't terminate their pregnancies. The line is crossed when they resort to deceptive and unethical practices in order to insert themselves into a healthcare discussion when they have not been invited and then proceed to lie their asses off about contraception and abortion.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2023-04-15 at 03:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  2. #6362
    Herald of the Titans tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Where did you pick it up?
    I heard it a while ago. I can't really remember. It's useful in dealing with extreme, or passively extreme, positions like never favoring or voicing approval of legal restrictions on abortion related to gestational age. It's useful in gauging how attached people are to insisting opponents use their own labels, and insisting they're personally allowed to reject their opponents labels.

    Quote Originally Posted by RampageBW1 View Post
    Not at all what I was talking about.
    There's no such thing as "Pro-Abort"
    I think I've posted enough on the power and privilege games that attend calling others what you like, and not allowing them to call you as they like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Some issues haven't developed by that time!
    Most late-term abortions are because health concerns!
    Then craft legal protections for the baby to ensure it only impacts severe fetal defects and nonviable pregnancy. If your only concerns are actual issues, and health, then please support restrictions for the cases where it's not. If the life of the baby never matters (is never a concern) and everything is legal, then I stand firm in calling it a pro-abort attitude. You want to say issues and rarity, but really you want it to be legal for everything.

    As a reminder, rape and incest are very rare, but much time is spent arguing over exemptions related to those. I also just engaged in discussion here on a sub-1% condition involving pre-viability preterm prelabor ruptures. Will you say no attention need be paid to those because of their rarity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Nothing is going to make you less of a deranged psychopath.

    the best thing one can do is point out the insanity, the cruelty and vileness.
    You literally just quoted my post and deleted its entirety to replace with "verbose drivel." That contains about as much "point[ing] out" as a pro-life activist screaming "baby-murderers" and plugging their ears when they hear disagreement. Similar delete-the-counter-argument-and-apply-ad-hominem. I understand that you have quite a bit of hatred about it ("deranged psychopath" is quoting you), and this is an extremely intense issue, but you communicate very little beyond implying all pro-life arguments are issued by deranged psychopaths.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  3. #6363
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I heard it a while ago. I can't really remember.
    Considering you only started using it recently I'm willing to bet you picked it up from either a right wing YouTuber or some shitty anti-choice Facebook group trying to deal with the fallout of how unpopular pro-life positions are proving to be electorally.

    It's useful in gauging how attached people are to insisting opponents use their own labels, and insisting they're personally allowed to reject their opponents labels.
    "Useful" in a propagandistic sense does not mean it's factually accurate.

    Calling a position pro-abortion implies a belief in abortion as the default option in cases of pregnancy - a position held by few if any people. Meanwhile, "pro-life" implies a position actually concerned with human health and wellbeing which is not held by most people who identify themselves as pro-life since they invariably have other political positions that make unwanted pregnancy more likely or ensure that people in poverty have significantly higher rates of mortality.

    But let's be real here, the only reason you've resorted to this nonsense is because you're salty that one of your pet political projects cost your party in the midterms and is likely to continue proving an electoral landmine for Republicans.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2023-04-15 at 06:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #6364
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I think I've posted enough on the power and privilege games that attend calling others what you like, and not allowing them to call you as they like.
    You thinking that folks wanting Abortion clinics to provide better choices does not make it a "Pro-Abortion" movement. It's Pro-Choice, the only people to call it "Pro-Abort" are Pro-Life intellectually dishonest people, such as yourself, who think we want all women to have abortions when we just want people to have a choice in the matter.

    It's Pro-Choice. I could have a million things to say about Pro-Life not actually being Pro-Life, but then you'd probably think that I would be dishonest.

  5. #6365
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Appeal to authority.
    By appeal to authority you mean you are too woefully unqualified and ignorant to decide the facts of the matter but your conservative hubris, ego and narratives prevent you from accepting the consensus decided upon by those who are, in fact, qualified to give their judgement on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Also "no true Scotsman" since you're about to call all the pro-life doctors and nurses out there as not informed.
    That's why I mentioned consensus, because the tiny minority of irresponsible and ignorant medical professionals do not a consensus make.

    If you have problems understanding what an educated, informed consensus means, you should try looking up a dictionary.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  6. #6366
    We know that Protasiewicz ran on abortion, and to a lesser extent redistricting map, platforms in Wisconsin. Now that we have the final numbers, how did it work?

    The biggest danger to the GOP is probably the GOP voter erosion in the Milwaukee suburbs Wukesha, Ozaukee and Washington (WOW) counties. The longtime—and very successful—strategy for Republicans to win statewide was for their strength in the WOW counties to neutralize Milwaukee and have their votes in the rest of the state nullify Democrats’ major edge in Dane County. WOW counties also factored heavily into their gerrymandering strategy.

    It worked amazingly well…until it didn’t. GOP historically won WOW counties with 70% or better of the votes. Kelly only received 58.7%. GOP can’t win any statewide races with that kind of margin. What is even more worrying, Knodl won State Senate District 8, which includes part of WOW counties, with just over 1% margin. In 2020, his predecessor won by over 10% margin. Voter erosion in WOW counties is breaking Wisconsin heavily gerrymandered district map.

    Abortion is now a primary driver of young voters, who fear that an unplanned pregnancy could derail their life’s plans. Then there is the fear that “women’s rights” could be trampled (by men, no less). You can see this clearly in the long lines of students voting at UWM campus. You don’t take a right that people have taken for granted for almost 50 years and expect no blowback. Turned out, even if the thought of ever personally having a child aborted was something they could never abide, majority of Americans do not want the option of legal abortions to go away.

    Also, with good cause, majority of Americans believe that the anti-choice crowd will not just stop at abortion.

    In 2021, Missouri legislature took a run at blocking Medicaid funding for Plan B and IUD. In 2022, Idaho state Rep. Brent Crane, Republican chair of the powerful House State Affairs Committee, held hearings on legislation banning emergency contraceptives and possibly IUDs as well. Louisiana legislators are working on “human personhood” bill saying the life begins at the point of fertilization. Which would outlaw Plan B drugs, IUDs and other forms of birth control. Most recent development, the Iowa Attorney General's Office has put on hold its longstanding practice of paying for emergency contraception for victims of sexual assault.

    None of these are popular. Even in ruby red states they have detractors. Four GOP lawmakers in Florida, that voted for the 15 weeks ban, voted “no” on the 6 weeks ban. Bottom line, the margins of GOP victories in those district were small enough, that a “yes” vote would have made them unelectable in 2024.

    Contrast how DeSantis signed the 15 weeks ban vs. the 6 weeks ban. One with raucous public ceremony attended by members of the press, flanked by Republican lawmakers with cheering supporters in the audience. The other with a press release shortly before midnight.

    Listen to how the GOP presidential hopefuls talked about abortion. Contrast them to the Democratic candidates. One side embraces their position. The other avoids talking about it at all costs.

    BTW, even if mifepristone is outlawed, people can still get it on line from aidaccess.org regardless of where they live. Unless GOP get their way and starts banning abortion access and care information from the internet.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2023-04-15 at 07:08 PM.

  7. #6367
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Then craft legal protections for the baby to ensure it only impacts severe fetal defects and nonviable pregnancy. If your only concerns are actual issues, and health, then please support restrictions for the cases where it's not. If the life of the baby never matters (is never a concern) and everything is legal, then I stand firm in calling it a pro-abort attitude. You want to say issues and rarity, but really you want it to be legal for everything.

    As a reminder, rape and incest are very rare, but much time is spent arguing over exemptions related to those. I also just engaged in discussion here on a sub-1% condition involving pre-viability preterm prelabor ruptures. Will you say no attention need be paid to those because of their rarity?
    Or, bear with me. We leave it up to the Woman, the Doctor, and in cases when relevant her family.
    No 11 year old child should ever carry a pregnancy to term, it's likely to kill the child.

    It's easier to not have to create clear and easy exceptions by just leaving it to people. If someone feels abortion is immoral they can choose to not practice it.
    For late stage abortions practically all of them are for medical reasons, but at times they're for reasons that makes it so it's unsuitable for the child-to-be in other ways, where no child is more humane for the non-existant child.

    Early abortions are more often good family planning. Cheaper than adoption and fostercare systems. And shouldn't be hindered. From a "fiscal conservative" position, wouldn't fewer children in poverty needing government handouts be better? (I feel disgusting just asking that...)

    Do I want the choice to be there for everyone? Yes! But not because I want everyone to abort. In my ideal case there would be no non-medical abortions. However the world isn't ideal! So there will be! Women cannot choose not to get pregnant at times when it's bad and they cannot take care of a child.

    Rape and Incest are far from that rare.
    I garantee that at least 4/5 women you know have been sexually harrassed verbally, 1/2 have been sexually harrassed physically, and far more than you'd be able to guess have been forced to have intercourse with someone.

    Besides, which political party is it that are pro-child with adult marriage in the USA? (aka, making pedophilia quote, legal, unquote)

    The problem with the rarity and all that? It's too narrow, makes it too hard, and makes abortions defacto-illegal. It's horseshit and dogwhistles.
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  8. #6368
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    As a reminder, rape and incest are very rare, but much time is spent arguing over exemptions related to those. I also just engaged in discussion here on a sub-1% condition involving pre-viability preterm prelabor ruptures. Will you say no attention need be paid to those because of their rarity?
    You are the last person who wants to be talking about what's "rare" in the context of abortions. When every """pro-life""" propagandist is out here pretending that women routinely murder their fully-developed infants, despite the reality being that 90-something% of abortions take place in the first 13 weeks. People bring up rape and incest in a vain attempt to appeal to the humanity of those who have none, as they demonstrate in their opposition to even those provisions. How did you put it? Ah, yes:
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    deranged psychopaths
    You know, the sort of people who want to force others to carry their rapist's child, even when that rapist is their father/brother/etc. As if legislating mandatory pregnancy in the first place wasn't bad enough...
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2023-04-15 at 08:16 PM.

  9. #6369
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Early abortions are more often good family planning.
    Yeah. Also do you know what happens when every woman can freely decide for herself to carry a pregnancy to term or not? Every single baby born is wanted and will be loved by her mother.

  10. #6370
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post

    "It's obvious from even a cursory glance that they prey" is synonymous with "I shouldn't have to argue it because I personally feel it's obvious." No cleverness from me. The state still has no business telling them they're not pushing contraception or abortion hard enough.

    Postpartum care by both state and private groups is widespread. Your inattention or ignorance of this is entirely your personal choice.

    Active shooter drills, NRA terrorists? Alright, dude. Create your own megatopic combining gun control, second amendment rights and "terrorism," and abortion. I've seen enough frail threads holding together "You aren't allowed to sincerely argue X, because you also favor/disfavor Y" arguments.

    This is all that really needs to be said about your inability to back up your own arguments properly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The problem people have with crisis pregnancy centers is not that they're "insufficiently supportive of abortion."

    The problem is that they want to be treated as healthcare providers when their primary goal is steering women away from particular healthcare options they politically disagree with, and do so by means that are unethical in any healthcare setting including but not limited to harassment of their patients and trafficking in medical disinformation.

    No one is saying that anti-choice freaks shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions or offer services catered towards women who don't terminate their pregnancies. The line is crossed when they resort to deceptive and unethical practices in order to insert themselves into a healthcare discussion when they have not been invited and then proceed to lie their asses off about contraception and abortion.
    Crisis pregnancy centers are inserting themselves into paid advertisement google searches related to women looking for abortions. When women ask about abortive procedures and how much it will cost or how to get them, the clinics claim that they can't discuss such things over the phone and that the person needs to come in and be seen in person, and avoid telling the women that they don't offer such services even when it's clear the woman is looking for such services. When they have the woman in their "clinic" they then conveniently avoid answering any questions they have about abortion, and are instructed to use guilt trip tactics.

    When all else fails, since these clinics are not actual medical treatment centers, they take the information the woman used to make an appointment (her name, address, phone number, etc) to bombard mail, emails, phone calls, etc. upon her by giving her personal information to pro-birth organizations. Because you know, the privacy of medical records only applies if you're an actual medical facility.

    You don't see any of this as an issue because you agree with it, but again, anyone with two firing brain cells can identify how manipulative it is. People don't make appointments at pregnancy crisis centers because they've already made up their mind to keep the kid, considering how little is actually offered to women who've already made up their minds. If you really need help, I can do a youtube search for you and find all of the videos that demonstrate all of this as well as testimonials of former employees who describe how manipulative it is.

    But every time I provide actual evidence to anything I say you disappear and never respond, meanwhile you demand everyone else provide evidence for your claims without ever actually providing any yourself.



    But yes, the Republicans have a huge young voter problem on their hands. Gen Z is entering the economy with dire job prospects because the last 50 years of trickle down economics has led to extremely poor wages that means they can't afford basic life necessities. They recognize which party is supportive of worker rights and which is not. They go through active shooter drills anywhere from once a month to once per week, and are always hearing about school shootings on the news and are sick of Republicans doing nothing to protect them while sending useless thoughts and vapid prayers. Anti-abortion laws are wildly unpopular, and even a majority of Republicans are against outright banning abortion. That number becomes even higher among independents, the voters that Republicans desperately need to win over. They were expecting big gains in 2022 and barely got anything, and only because so many congressional seats ran unopposed. Many congressional Republicans only won their seats by triple digit votes And it's only going to get worse for them.

    Tick tock.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2023-04-15 at 08:54 PM.
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  11. #6371
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Abortion is now a primary driver of young voters, who fear that an unplanned pregnancy could derail their life’s plans.
    That is exactly the fear. Having a child is ludicrously expensive. And with the wealth divide and the rising prices its become more and more difficult. For republicans this keeps people poor and unable to socially move. This is the way for them.

  12. #6372
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    We've been hearing this story since 2008. Guess what, 2008's young voters are going to be 16 years older in 2024, and somehow the current betting lines favor Republicans for 2024.

    Couple reasons this happens - one is republican voter suppression,
    Were you talking about imaginary reasons, hypothetical reasons, or were you just joking?

  13. #6373
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Were you talking about imaginary reasons, hypothetical reasons, or were you just joking?
    Maybe he just attends the Tim "49 state landslide" Pool school of political polling and prediction.

  14. #6374
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    We've been hearing this story since 2008. Guess what, 2008's young voters are going to be 16 years older in 2024, and somehow the current betting lines favor Republicans for 2024.
    The last time republicans won the popular vote was 2004 under Bush, they have lost every election after that. That's why they rely solely on gerrymandering and voter suppression. The only reliable republican voting block is whites without a college education or less a shrinking demographic. There's a reason you guys are going full fascism even with our messed up system you can only rig it so much.

  15. #6375
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    somehow the current betting lines favor Republicans for 2024
    These the same betting lines that predicted a Republican sweep last year?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  16. #6376
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    These the same betting lines that predicted a Republican sweep last year?
    Yeah, it's pretty stupid argument, even more so considering the actual current betting lines have Biden winning re-election, though not surprising that dude's spreading bullshit.

    Than you look at Kansas voting to allow abortion, a week ago Wisconsin voting in a majority left SCOTUS, have to be a real moron to bet on republicans in 2024.
    Last edited by beanman12345; 2023-04-15 at 10:41 PM.

  17. #6377
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Identity politics is a the biggest loser of the past 2 elections.
    True. The GOP ran on identity politics and got murdered despite the usual swing shifts you get in American politics.

  18. #6378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    True. The GOP ran on identity politics and got murdered despite the usual swing shifts you get in American politics.
    And since no one running the show over there has any sort of introspection, they've just tripled down on it and deluded themselves into thinking people love their bullshit.

    Like if their rhetoric and actions weren't actively harming people I care about I'd say let them keep spinning until they insanity themselves into irrelevancy.

  19. #6379
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    True. The GOP ran on identity politics and got murdered despite the usual swing shifts you get in American politics.
    The stupidity of "identity politics" as an accusation is that it applies to all sides of any given issue, so the finger inherently points right back at the one leveling the accusation.

    Supporting LGBTQ+ issues is identity politics, but so is opposing them.
    Supporting ethnic diversity is identity politics, but so is opposing them.
    Supporting women's rights is identity politics, so is opposing them.

    And if you just want people to shut up about it, the "everyone has the same rights" stance is firmly in the "support X group" argument's side of things; every right-wing attempt to deny said rights to someone is involved in supporting discriminatory preferential treatment to some group(s) over others, in picking which groups "win" and which "lose". "Just leave people alone" is the left-wing position in these arguments, not the right's.

    Hell, it extends a lot further. Economic policy is "identity politics" because it affects social classes. Law enforcement involves "identity politics" because it doesn't always result in equitable treatment of all members of society. Etc. Everything, at some level, is "identity politics", and those saying it's "not a winning policy" are just being intentionally dishonest. They're using an empty slur-word that has no objective meaning outside their bubble, and within their bubble just translates to "anyone we decided is the 'enemy' to be targeted and harmed."


  20. #6380
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    We've been hearing this story since 2008. Guess what, 2008's young voters are going to be 16 years older in 2024, and somehow the current betting lines favor Republicans for 2024.

    Couple reasons this happens - one is republican voter suppression, but the more interesting one to me is how poorly run the Democratic Party is, and how quickly the liberal element of the party is willing to embrace wildly unpopular policies like Defund the Police. And of course their tendency to nominate incredibly uninspiring establishment candidates.

    If Democrats focused on winning the elections they could do it easily - Obama provided the template. Focus on broadly popular policies like healthcare, education, use status as a minority to inoculate himself from attacks by the left and avoid the culture wars. Identity politics is a the biggest loser of the past 2 elections.
    2008 it was because of the financial crisis, and that was about it. As more and more issues pile up such as bodily autonomy rights, poor job prospects, mass shootings increasing exponentially in the last 10 years, and multiple other issues, it's galvanizing more and more young voters.

    Again, the funny part about you saying "this isn't happening" is that it HAS ALREADY HAPPENED and is continuing to grow as Republicans continue to give young people the middle finger. Republicans heavily gerrymandered and pushed tons of voter disenfranchisement, expecting those measures to give them big majorities in the house and senate in 2022, and then did surprised pikachu face when they barely won the house and failed to get the senate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Identity politics is a losing strategy for the GOP. Most independent/swing voters just want to be left alone, and don't care about what others do with their bodies. The GOP is pushing identity politics hard because that's THEIR strategy. Notice how the trans panic is only a product of the last 2 years, and they didn't have a problem with it before?

    The majority of America doesn't give two shits about people choosing to be LGBTQ, and they're getting sick of Republicans shoving the word woke in their face every time a black person or woman appears in a movie.

    And lest we forget, when abortion rights are put to a vote by the actual populace rather than right wing politicians, even the most red states have voted to keep abortive rights. It's only the out of touch politicians who are pushing abortion bans.

    People like Ron DeShitstain keep pushing fascist shit, and while they blare their "victories" from the rooftops as if the majority of the public supports it, his numbers are in the shitter. He's fighting against Disney and losing. People find the alt-right "anti woke" very distasteful. And the GOP is losing the culture war funded by Russia dark money.
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