1. #6901
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    They're being performed above 10,000. You've read the doctor that stated, plainly, in response to what about "a pregnant woman with no health issues comes to the clinic, say, at 30 weeks, what would you do?" was irked and said "Every pregnancy is a health issue."
    That you still can't wrap your head around this fact is why your opinion will never hold water, AND why you seem to think that doctors are just being difficult when they refuse to contribute to legislation that is only made to appear reasonable via various exceptions. There are NO medically or ethically significant exceptions that need to be codified to prevent a healthcare provider from providing this service to their patients. As the doctor in the article that you grossly misunderstood noted, the only thing to consider is whether it is safer for the patient to abort or to bring to term. That's it. As most reasonable doctors would agree, the health of the patient comes first, and no piece of legislation should hamper their ability to provide safe, medically effective care.

    That's why you shouldn't expect doctors to sit down with legislators in order to craft laws that aren't based on science and are antithetical to providing medical care to people in need of it.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2023-09-22 at 04:45 AM.

  2. #6902
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I don't believe the birth canal is a magical person-and-rights granter, such that 24 weeks in the womb is permissible to kill, and a preemie birth at the same time makes such an act illegal. Life ending after abortion is about as scientific fact as it gets, and I'm not asking you to emotionally connect with the implications. If it had been some other process, where two people decide the fate of a third when that third is quite able to live out life and be delivered, I don't think you'd have to dig deep into your emotions to understand there's some neglect going on.
    What evidence do you have that you actually believe this?

    The pithy version is that somebody's choice is being made for them, and the fact that it's being made for them is great reason to ensure that the law protects them from every possible reason below life of the mother and severe fetal anomaly. You disagree that it's happening, without evidence I might add, but somehow the strength of your evidence-free assertion needs to dominate. I brought to the table what I had, a couple 20-28 studies suggesting a majority are for non-health reasons, but the strength of your belief gave them short shrift. Oh well.
    You didn't link shit. We used to cut the tongues out of people for lying. Just be thankful we don't do that anymore (yet).

    We should legally protect their lives from unreasonable requests to end them, certainly.
    What would you consider a "reasonable" request? Being LGBT? Being Jewish?

    Why are you so hung-up on emotionality? Is opposing the mistreatment of young children outside the womb automatically an emotional argument, since you might personally feel an emotional tug during the discussion?
    That would require you to actually have emotions.

    Well, here we have nobody in the room legally obligated to only consider health reasons, and evidence from at least two doctors that they end lives based on other considerations. I'll say two doctors coming out in public is enough reason to 1) doubt that it never happens apart from those two and 2) believe that they represent dozens of others that would never speak up for the same due to potential public backlash.
    Were their names Albert and Einstein?

    Again, no data, and I can only lie.
    FTFY

    I've got to end it here.
    You should end more than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Nice talking with you, tehdang. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the lengthy discussions we've had on this topic are not conducive to the kind of understanding between each other I had hoped would come. It's noone's fault, just the medium we're using. I would prefer shorter conversations focusing on specific issues, but I'm sure you're just as busy with real life as I am, and it's just not practical.

    Best of luck.
    There's no understanding to be had. Conservatives are just fundamentally evil. Everything they say is just a smokescreen to maximize harm to as many people as possible. Hell, these people are pushing for omnicide via climate castatrophe.



    Infracted.
    Last edited by xskarma; 2023-09-24 at 02:58 PM.
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  3. #6903
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    What evidence do you have that you actually believe this?
    The fact that he thinks the effects of pregnancy are apparently completely isolated to the birth canal should tell you all you need to know about how ignorant and lacking of evidence his position is.

  4. #6904
    The Supreme Court want the states to decide. We'll have several ballot measures this November and next year elections that will do exactly that. We'll just have to see how the people feel about the right to abortion. I have a feeling the so-called anti-choice faction won't like the outcomes of those elections.

  5. #6905
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    The Supreme Court want the states to decide. We'll have several ballot measures this November and next year elections that will do exactly that. We'll just have to see how the people feel about the right to abortion. I have a feeling the so-called anti-choice faction won't like the outcomes of those elections.
    Not to worry, they have a long history of respecting the outcome of elections after all.






    /s.
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  6. #6906
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    The Supreme Court want the states to decide. We'll have several ballot measures this November and next year elections that will do exactly that. We'll just have to see how the people feel about the right to abortion. I have a feeling the so-called anti-choice faction won't like the outcomes of those elections.
    Considering that they've been doing everything they can to ratfuck those elections (most recently in Ohio), I think they know exactly what the outcomes are likely to be.

  7. #6907
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Considering that they've been doing everything they can to ratfuck those elections (most recently in Ohio), I think they know exactly what the outcomes are likely to be.
    They changed "fetus" to "unborn child" in the referendum, and “citizens of the state” to "State of Ohio" in the summary. Would those changes make a difference? Personally, I don't think it will. In the first place, how many people actually read the whole referendum cover to cover? I think that, after Issue 1, the votes for and against the reproductive rights referendum in Ohio are already pretty much set in stone. It is too late to change people's minds now.

  8. #6908
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    They changed "fetus" to "unborn child" in the referendum, and “citizens of the state” to "State of Ohio" in the summary. Would those changes make a difference? Personally, I don't think it will. In the first place, how many people actually read the whole referendum cover to cover? I think that, after Issue 1, the votes for and against the reproductive rights referendum in Ohio are already pretty much set in stone. It is too late to change people's minds now.
    I meant more that they snuck in a bill earlier in the year, under questionable circumstances, to make it harder to pass amendments specifically to stop this bill. It failed pretty decisively, but that could have made a big difference if they'd succeeded, and demonstrates that they're pretty certain the abortion amendment will pass.

  9. #6909
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    I meant more that they snuck in a bill earlier in the year, under questionable circumstances, to make it harder to pass amendments specifically to stop this bill. It failed pretty decisively, but that could have made a big difference if they'd succeeded, and demonstrates that they're pretty certain the abortion amendment will pass.
    True.

    The one interesting thing about the abortion issue, based on the numerous polls that have been conducted, is that everybody has an opinion. The number of undecideds is unusually low. In the last Gallup poll, it was 3%. Which leads me to believe that US voters have pretty much made up their mind. At this point, it is all about the turnout.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2023-09-22 at 10:13 PM.

  10. #6910
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    True.

    The one interesting thing about the abortion issue, based on the numerous polls that have been conducted, is that everybody has an opinion. The number of undecideds is unusually low. In the last Gallup poll, it was 3%. Which leads me to believe that US voters have pretty much made up their mind. At this point, it is all about the turnout.
    It's always all about the turnout TBH. Democrat policies are consistently more popular than Republican's. The question is always if the former can get enough people to vote, especially in the right places because there's actually less than 10 States that matter in any given election.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  11. #6911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's always all about the turnout TBH. Democrat policies are consistently more popular than Republican's. The question is always if the former can get enough people to vote, especially in the right places because there's actually less than 10 States that matter in any given election.
    yeah but moving the the popular vote would mean that only ten *other* states would matter in any given election or whatever.

  12. #6912
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's always all about the turnout TBH. Democrat policies are consistently more popular than Republican's. The question is always if the former can get enough people to vote, especially in the right places because there's actually less than 10 States that matter in any given election.
    I think Democrats finally found their wedge issue in abortion. We saw this over and over again in multiple elections.

    It is likely that at least 8 abortion referendums will be on the ballot in 2024. One in Florida. It needed 891,523 signatures by 12/31/2023. According to Florida Women’s Freedom Coalition they currently already have over 700,000 signatures and hoping to reach 1.5M by December. Their lawyer submitted the ballot language to Florida’s Supreme Court for review on August 31, 2023.

    How do Floridians feel about abortion? According to Florida Atlantic University poll in 2022, 67% of Floridians are of the opinion that abortion should be legal in all or most cases. Overwhelming majority want exceptions for rape, incest and human trafficking.

    When it comes to the current 6-week ban, 75% of Floridians are against the ban according to February 2023 poll from University of North Florida. Including 61% of Republican voters.

    2024 election will be interesting.

  13. #6913
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I think Democrats finally found their wedge issue in abortion. We saw this over and over again in multiple elections.

    It is likely that at least 8 abortion referendums will be on the ballot in 2024. One in Florida. It needed 891,523 signatures by 12/31/2023. According to Florida Women’s Freedom Coalition they currently already have over 700,000 signatures and hoping to reach 1.5M by December. Their lawyer submitted the ballot language to Florida’s Supreme Court for review on August 31, 2023.

    How do Floridians feel about abortion? According to Florida Atlantic University poll in 2022, 67% of Floridians are of the opinion that abortion should be legal in all or most cases. Overwhelming majority want exceptions for rape, incest and human trafficking.

    When it comes to the current 6-week ban, 75% of Floridians are against the ban according to February 2023 poll from University of North Florida. Including 61% of Republican voters.

    2024 election will be interesting.
    I agree it's enough of a wedge issue to give Democrats the edge, but they still need to push it. Abortion has broad national support but I do think it has more single-issues voters that are against it than for it. They have to beat the electorate over the head with that over and over again, at every level of government.

    This isn't 2012 where the incumbent Democrat was still fairly popular towards the end of his first term. Biden isn't, and that's not likely to improve. Not being Trump worked once, who knows if it'll work again, but I sure wouldn't bank everything on it.
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  14. #6914
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    You didn't link shit. We used to cut the tongues out of people for lying. Just be thankful we don't do that anymore (yet).
    I'm pretty sure you never cut out anyone's tongue.

  15. #6915
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    I'm pretty sure you never cut out anyone's tongue.
    I can't help but wonder where or when was lying punished like that, especially on something as trivial as a fucking internet forum. Or even more frightening, how or why would a practice like that make a comeback?
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  16. #6916
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    It is likely that at least 8 abortion referendums will be on the ballot in 2024. One in Florida. It needed 891,523 signatures by 12/31/2023. According to Florida Women’s Freedom Coalition they currently already have over 700,000 signatures and hoping to reach 1.5M by December. Their lawyer submitted the ballot language to Florida’s Supreme Court for review on August 31, 2023.
    This is a great idea.

    So was felon enfranchisement and FL GOP managed to duck that one.

  17. #6917
    Elemental Lord unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    How do you nerds not understand how metaphorical language works?

  18. #6918
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    I can't help but wonder where or when was lying punished like that, especially on something as trivial as a fucking internet forum. Or even more frightening, how or why would a practice like that make a comeback?
    Code of Hammurabi was pretty clear about just straight up killing people for lying. I don't know why you'd be surprised about cutting a tongue off.

    Or why it even matters considering how absolutely crazy the angle that the article was trying to push that even led to that comment.

  19. #6919
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    yeah but moving the the popular vote would mean that only ten *other* states would matter in any given election or whatever.
    No? You kind of miss the point of a popular vote. It wouldn't matter if you won a state or not, the 40% that voted for you in that state would still count toward you winning an election.

    Not that it will ever change, but this is a false talking point against it that is easily debunked.

  20. #6920
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    I can't help but wonder where or when was lying punished like that, especially on something as trivial as a fucking internet forum. Or even more frightening, how or why would a practice like that make a comeback?
    My point is that if we are to ever hope of having a reasonable, honest discourse, we need negative incentives for dishonesty. I'm not sure why "lying is wrong" is so controversial.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    I'm pretty sure you never cut out anyone's tongue.
    "We" means "society" here, dingus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brexitexit View Post
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