1. #661
    Banned cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    What bugs me the most is that Alito anticipates the objection that the ruling his authoring can and will be used to undermine a host of rights enumerated under the 14th and desperately tries to head this of by saying dont worry about it ite just abortion. He's a shitty used car salesman telling you not to look under the hood.
    Agreed. There are so many problems with the leaked memo, and unfortunately, it looks like it's going to be law.

    And in case it isn't clear, I'm on the side of Roe v Wade, and all the things it encompasses and stands for. I think the memo is an abomination of justice and goes against all the rights the United States stands for.

  2. #662
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Agreed. There are so many problems with the leaked memo, and unfortunately, it looks like it's going to be law.

    And in case it isn't clear, I'm on the side of Roe v Wade, and all the things it encompasses and stands for. I think the memo is an abomination of justice and goes against all the rights the United States stands for.
    The real problem is that the USA is still operating with an 18th Century document as the basis of their entire legal framework. It's beyond silly. Canada updated ours in '82 for a reason, and our original founding documents were put together nearly a century after yours.


  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Unfortunately, that's not how it's played out in our courts. The 9th essentially lets us address issues that aren't specifically laid out in the Constitution, to cover items and issues that the Founders didn't specifically lay out. However, what it doesn't say is that those unenumerated rights will or won't be covered by the federal government.

    It's entirely vague and literally left open to interpretation. Which the lower courts and SCOTUS have done, thoroughly and inconsistently, over the years.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Unfortunately, the court and it's history of rulings disagrees with you and Endus.

    SCOTUS does have a long history of favoring the federal government over state government rights. That history is now shifting, much to the detriment of us all.
    Oh, I'm not saying they're being consistent, rather the contrary in fact. It's naked political opportunism.
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  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The real problem is that the USA is still operating with an 18th Century document as the basis of their entire legal framework. It's beyond silly. Canada updated ours in '82 for a reason, and our original founding documents were put together nearly a century after yours.
    I wish we could rewrite the entire thing. There are so many fundamental problems with it. Of course it will never happen. Not in any civilized fashion, at least.

  5. #665
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The real problem is that the USA is still operating with an 18th Century document as the basis of their entire legal framework. It's beyond silly. Canada updated ours in '82 for a reason, and our original founding documents were put together nearly a century after yours.
    Additional problems stem from their basis of constitutional interpretation ("originalism", which has been pretty much entirely rejected up here, while it is taken seriously at pretty much every level down there) and the profound difficulty in performing even fairly trivial amendments.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
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  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The real problem is that the USA is still operating with an 18th Century document as the basis of their entire legal framework. It's beyond silly. Canada updated ours in '82 for a reason, and our original founding documents were put together nearly a century after yours.
    The reason for that is obvious a lot of Americans want to go back to a magical version of the white christian puritan days and the constitution is as sacred to them as the bible.

  7. #667
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    It's not ideal, but at least some will have a choice, re: moving to a state that better fits their values.

    And yes, some will not be able to. I'm not sure if a one size fits all solution exists for such a polarizing issue.
    No one is going to get to vote on it, though.

    Anti-abortion laws aren't placed on ballots because they wouldn't pass. Anti-abortion laws will be handled the same way Republicans have been operating the last two years (most of the time but the practice has resurfaced), through the Govenor or state legislature without allowing residents to have a say. The kicker is that Republicans are good at passing their shit in ways that a damning even if they know it will be overtuned in court but creating a legal shitshow.

  8. #668
    Herald of the Titans tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    It's not ideal, but at least some will have a choice, re: moving to a state that better fits their values.

    And yes, some will not be able to. I'm not sure if a one size fits all solution exists for such a polarizing issue.
    I don't think a national solution makes any sense, because it is a question of values. Full ban, 6 weeks, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, second trimester, third trimester, all the way up to crowning/delivery, exceptions, funding, medical certifications, oversight.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  9. #669
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I don't think a national solution makes any sense, because it is a question of values. Full ban, 6 weeks, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, second trimester, third trimester, all the way up to crowning/delivery, exceptions, funding, medical certifications, oversight.
    The only "values" in question, fundamentally, are whether or not you see women as people, or as breeding livestock who don't deserve basic respect and human rights.

    Everything else is an irrelevant distraction from that central point. Any limitation on abortion rights is an attack on women's human rights, and all the nonsense about fetal development is a smokescreen to cover for that dismissal of women's personhood.


  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I don't think a national solution makes any sense, because it is a question of values. Full ban, 6 weeks, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, second trimester, third trimester, all the way up to crowning/delivery, exceptions, funding, medical certifications, oversight.
    Fancy way of saying that any attempt at compromise with the anti abortion crowd is complete waste of time.
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    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

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  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I don't think a national solution makes any sense, because it is a question of values. Full ban, 6 weeks, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, second trimester, third trimester, all the way up to crowning/delivery, exceptions, funding, medical certifications, oversight.
    Ok, but I'm not sure a state solution makes any sense either, because states are largely still pretty big and diverse places with lots of values so maybe it's better left up to counties or cities. Maybe we can futher narrow it down to zip codes, since now we're getting really targeted in ensuring that people can live their values on the issue of abortion. Heck, let's go all the way to individuals.

    This way, since it's a questions of values and we are a society of individuals, I think we should respect everyone's individual values on the topic of abortion. This is maximum freedom to express ones values on the topic, which seems supremely American to me.

  12. #672
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Fancy way of saying that any attempt at compromise with the anti abortion crowd is complete waste of time.
    "Okay, so how much can we attack women's basic rights and freedoms? We gotta compromise on some level of subjugation, right? Can't let the wimmenz just be people like us men, can we? That's ridiculous."

    Absolutely steaming nonsense. It's not a negotiation. Accepting the concept of compromise on this issue requires admitting that women are inferior and deserve fewer rights.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Ok, but I'm not sure a state solution makes any sense either, because states are largely still pretty big and diverse places with lots of values so maybe it's better left up to counties or cities. Maybe we can futher narrow it down to zip codes, since now we're getting really targeted in ensuring that people can live their values on the issue of abortion. Heck, let's go all the way to individuals.

    This way, since it's a questions of values and we are a society of individuals, I think we should respect everyone's individual values on the topic of abortion. This is maximum freedom to express ones values on the topic, which seems supremely American to me.
    Like, maybe it should be a decision between any given pregnant woman and her doctor, who's best suited to understand what's medically relevant to her case?

    That's how it is in Canada. Literally no other restrictions. Abortion has no special limitations under the law; it's subject to the same oversight as getting a broken arm set or getting an antibiotic prescription, for medical ethics, and that's it.

    Been that way for over 30 years, and it's led to precisely zero issues.


  13. #673
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Ok, but I'm not sure a state solution makes any sense either, because states are largely still pretty big and diverse places with lots of values so maybe it's better left up to counties or cities. Maybe we can futher narrow it down to zip codes, since now we're getting really targeted in ensuring that people can live their values on the issue of abortion. Heck, let's go all the way to individuals.

    This way, since it's a questions of values and we are a society of individuals, I think we should respect everyone's individual values on the topic of abortion. This is maximum freedom to express ones values on the topic, which seems supremely American to me.
    I like that you had to explain personal liberty to a conservative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #674
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I like that you had to explain personal liberty to a conservative.
    Generally, they want the personal liberty to tell people what to do.

    "I should have the liberty to tell someone they can't get an abortion."

    "I should have the liberty to not have to see or hear about gay people"

    "I should have the liberty to force others to stop protesting against things I like"
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post

    Eh, I don't know where the posters whining about the leak as the most important issue to discuss here stand on Hale, so I can't comment on that. Unless you mean in more general sense than just this thread, in which case that could very well be motivation for some. After all even some (though, let's face it, most certainly not all) modern Republicans would consider Hale's views to be a bit too much and would feel the need to deflect from them.

    Yes that's my point, Republicans like Mitch is only crying about this cause of Hale. Its all deflection, it's always deflection and/or projection.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I don't think a national solution makes any sense, because it is a question of values. Full ban, 6 weeks, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, second trimester, third trimester, all the way up to crowning/delivery, exceptions, funding, medical certifications, oversight.
    If it's values based...decide for yourself when you no longer think its acceptable for you to have an abortion.
    On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

    - H. L. Mencken

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Generally, they want the personal liberty to tell people what to do.

    "I should have the liberty to tell someone they can't get an abortion."

    "I should have the liberty to not have to see or hear about gay people"

    "I should have the liberty to force others to stop protesting against things I like"
    I have almost word for word had someone literally tell me that second one without a hint of irony when they said it.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  18. #678
    Republicans are apparently already planning on trying to institute a total ban on abortion at the federal level, with Lankford and Ernst spearheading the effort.

  19. #679
    Herald of the Titans tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Fancy way of saying that any attempt at compromise with the anti abortion crowd is complete waste of time.
    Same right back at you. If none of those questions on proposed legislation matter to you, and you don't even regard it as a question of values, then maybe you're the impediment to compromise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Ok, but I'm not sure a state solution makes any sense either, because states are largely still pretty big and diverse places with lots of values so maybe it's better left up to counties or cities. Maybe we can futher narrow it down to zip codes, since now we're getting really targeted in ensuring that people can live their values on the issue of abortion. Heck, let's go all the way to individuals.

    This way, since it's a questions of values and we are a society of individuals, I think we should respect everyone's individual values on the topic of abortion. This is maximum freedom to express ones values on the topic, which seems supremely American to me.
    I'll stick with states, but even mocking discussion of the principle of subsidiarity is progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    If it's values based...decide for yourself when you no longer think its acceptable for you to have an abortion.
    You weren't personally a slave, so how dare you have an opinion on slavery! Decide for yourself if you wish to own slaves. Or murder. Or if stealing is wrong.

    (This is pretty much pro-choice and pro-life boilerplate)
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post

    You weren't personally a slave, so how dare you have an opinion on slavery! Decide for yourself if you wish to own slaves. Or murder. Or if stealing is wrong.
    Abortion, unlike slavery, murder, or stealing, doesn't affect anyone else.
    On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

    - H. L. Mencken

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