1. #7041
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwdorumdr View Post
    No no no. I mean "conception is the consequence of sex" is biology and that is how human race reproduced itself. Unscientific feminist's view on treating everything as socially constructed is totally unscientific and false.
    Biology doesn't have any concept of "consequences". Conception is just one possible biological result of sex. That's not the same thing. And it's not an unchangeable result, especially with modern medicine. This is so wildly not an argument against basic abortion rights; you're just engaging in open misogyny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwdorumdr View Post
    Then tell me why abortion was taken away under the Biden administration, not under trump.
    Under State jurisdictions, not Federal. The President doesn't control the State governments, nor does he control the SCOTUS.

    Still. Conception is the consequence of sex and that is how human being as an animal reproduce itself.
    Still misusing "consequence". It's an intentionally loaded term. It's just a result, and results can be freely changed with modern medicine/technology.


  2. #7042
    Quote Originally Posted by wwdorumdr View Post
    Then tell me why abortion was taken away under the Biden administration, not under trump.
    i can't believe i'm doing this, but here we go...

    abortion wasn't "taken away" under biden.
    the federal law that prevented states from outlawing abortion was overturned by a supreme court packed with ideologically inclined republican christian judges, who overturned a 45 year old ruling out of nowhere and apropos of nothing, for the sake of pursuing their anti-abortion agenda.

    with the law that prevented states from banning abortion now struck down, some states (and only some) that are full of christofascists can now ban abortion.

    in order to stop those states from doing that, you would need a large and sweeping federal regulation or new law passed... and that would require congress, the senate, and the executive branch to all agree to that and to make and implement such a law.
    hint: congress is currently held by a majority of republicans. as in, congress will NOT pass any such law. which means any such law cannot by passed.

    the president of the US does not currently have dictator powers. biden can't declare "fuck you, abortion is legal everywhere", that's not how the government in the US works.

    Still. Conception is the consequence of sex and that is how human being as an animal reproduce itself.
    ya, and humans have had means by which to prevent a pregnancy from gestating for literally thousands of years, so what?

    here are two things that never, ever happen in the animal world:
    1. a broken leg bone heals
    2. abortions

    these are two biological medical functions wholly unique to homo sapiens.
    so what?

  3. #7043
    Quote Originally Posted by wwdorumdr View Post
    Then tell me why abortion was taken away under the Biden administration, not under trump.



    It is not false. It is very real. That is called historical materialism. It is not a faith. What you are saying is that without Hilter there won't be a WW2.

    The fact is that the material base for abortion keeps getting attacked for many years to the point they went away.

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    Still. Conception is the consequence of sex and that is how human being as an animal reproduce itself.
    The court was packed by the previous administration leading to this and that means Republicans support abortion since Ohio i am sure nuance is rough but it is still a thing. You are supportive of abortion since it gives more rights to people instead of taking them away right? Also conception is something to easily avoid we have avoided it for almost 14 years now from various use of condoms, birth control and worst case scenario events because we both want to do what we want to do without any real hinderances. Be happy for freedom.

  4. #7044
    https://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...e/71529703007/

    Ohioans: We'd like to enshrine bodily autonomy and a right to abortion in our Constitution.

    Ohio Republicans: LIKE FUCK YOU WILL IF WE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT

    Several Republican lawmakers plan to fight the recently approved abortion rights amendment by trying to overthrow the judicial branch's authority to interpret it.

    Ohio voters approved protections for abortion and other reproductive rights, 57-43%, Tuesday. Abortion rights advocates will soon head to court to repeal restrictions and bans on the procedure.

    But four GOP lawmakers had another idea.

    "To prevent mischief by pro-abortion courts with Issue 1, Ohio legislators will consider removing jurisdiction from the judiciary over this ambiguous ballot initiative," according to a Thursday night news release with quotes from four GOP House representatives. "The Ohio legislature alone will consider what, if any, modifications to make to existing laws based on public hearings and input from legal experts on both sides."
    And Republicans wonder why they keep losing on this issue as they continue to take extremist positions in direct opposition to the will of the voters.

    The news release from Reps. Jennifer Gross, R-West Chester; Bill Dean, R-Xenia; Melanie Miller, R-Miller; and Beth Lear, R-Galena and was titled: "DECEPTIVE OHIO ISSUE 1 MISLED THE PUBLIC BUT DOESN'T REPEAL OUR LAWS." Ohio Value Voters, an anti-abortion organization, shared the same quotes in a Friday news release.

    “We will withdraw jurisdiction from the courts so that they cannot misapply Issue 1 for the benefit of the abortion industry,” Gross said in the Ohio Value Voters' release.
    Ohio Republicans are now pretty explicitly attacking the concept of separation of powers, which is a pretty key foundation of our system of government. This is fairly explicitly authoritarian shit.

    "The Supreme Court of Ohio is the final arbiter of constitutional issues. Period," said Pfeifer, a former justice and Republican lawmaker. "There’s no getting around that, so legislation that attempts to circumvent the constitution eventually isn’t going to go anywhere.
    At least some Republicans seem to understand how our government operates and have at least a modicum of respect for it.

    Just another reminder of how Republicans are constantly doubling down on losing issues, wasting time on pointless virtue signaling to their extremist base instead of legislating and getting anything done for the people they represent.

  5. #7045
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...e/71529703007/

    Ohioans: We'd like to enshrine bodily autonomy and a right to abortion in our Constitution.

    Ohio Republicans: LIKE FUCK YOU WILL IF WE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT



    And Republicans wonder why they keep losing on this issue as they continue to take extremist positions in direct opposition to the will of the voters.



    Ohio Republicans are now pretty explicitly attacking the concept of separation of powers, which is a pretty key foundation of our system of government. This is fairly explicitly authoritarian shit.



    At least some Republicans seem to understand how our government operates and have at least a modicum of respect for it.

    Just another reminder of how Republicans are constantly doubling down on losing issues, wasting time on pointless virtue signaling to their extremist base instead of legislating and getting anything done for the people they represent.
    Simply put, voting for GOP candidates = abortion bans.

  6. #7046
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Simply put, voting for GOP candidates = abortion bans.
    Gonna be interesting seeing what breaks first - Republicans placating their extremist base and getting their asses kicked up and down the court, or Republican voters tired of their parties extremism and losses simply abandoning them. Either outcome is good in general, I just hope we get one of them instead of decades more of Republicans doubling down on their extremist minority base.

  7. #7047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Gonna be interesting seeing what breaks first - Republicans placating their extremist base and getting their asses kicked up and down the court, or Republican voters tired of their parties extremism and losses simply abandoning them. Either outcome is good in general, I just hope we get one of them instead of decades more of Republicans doubling down on their extremist minority base.
    Cultists don't break.
    "god is on our side, who is on theirs?" legitimizes anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  8. #7048
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    Cultists don't break.
    "god is on our side, who is on theirs?" legitimizes anything.
    Yup. Voters are catching on to that. All that talks about reasonable gestation period are nothing more than talks. The ultimate goal is total abortion ban.

  9. #7049
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwdorumdr View Post
    Then tell me why abortion was taken away under the Biden administration, not under trump.
    It takes an exceptional level of bad faith posting to even try to paint the current anti-abortion movement as from the Democratic Party.

    I hope you stay banned.
    Forum badass alert:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    It's called resistance / rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    Also, one day the tables might turn.

  10. #7050
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwdorumdr View Post
    Then tell me why abortion was taken away under the Biden administration, not under trump.
    Ah you're one of THOSE people who believes the president controls literally everything and doesn't understand how our government works. Civics is important, kid. Try to learn some.

    Anyw'may, anyone notice how Ohio and other states overwhelmingly voted for abortion rights to be reinstated or protected and Republicans just ignored the outcome of the vote and went "Nah, time to ignore the outcomes of elections and go full fascist because we want abortions to be illegal".
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  11. #7051
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    I hope you stay banned.
    Considering the person didn't even get infracted I'm fairly sure it was a perma-ban for ban-evading!

  12. #7052
    Some numbers from the recent Ohio Issue 1 election.

    Voters that identify as liberals made up 34% of the vote. Higher turnout than the August election.

    GOP voters turnout was lower than August election. Apparently, they did not think that the issue is worth their time?

    One in three that did show up to vote, voted yes. Considering this is a Trump state, that's pretty high.

    One in four voters that identify as Evangelical Christian voted yes. On a Christian podcast, the speaker called them "abominable".

    One in ten voters that identify as MAGA voted yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Now that Democrats have control of both houses of legislature in Virginia, they could initiate a constitutional amendment to protect the right to abortion similar to Ohio.

    • The Virginia State Legislature can propose amendments through legislatively referred constitutional amendments as established in Section 1 of Article XII.
    • These can be proposed in either house of the Virginia General Assembly.
    • If a proposed amendment is approved by a simple majority vote in one session of the state legislature, it is automatically referred to the next session of the state legislature that occurs after the next general election of members of the Virginia House of Delegates.
    • If, in that second session, the proposed amendment is "agreed to by a majority of all the members elected to each house," it is then placed before the state's voters.
    • It can go on a special or general election ballot.
    • If approved by a simple majority vote, it becomes part of the state's constitution.

    It appears that as many as 12 states could have abortion initiatives on the ballots in 2024. If 2023 is of any indicator, those will drive turnouts.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2023-11-11 at 09:01 PM.

  13. #7053
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...on-1234876160/

    “I’m proud to be a pro-life party, but we can win on this message,” McDaniel said on Sunday’s Meet the Press. “The American people are where we are, and they want common sense limitations. They want more access to adoption. We want to make sure that there’s pregnancy crisis centers. These are things we can win on.”

    When asked about the Senate Republican campaign arm telling candidates to oppose a national abortion ban, McDaniel said, “We’re going to let the legislators and the Senators and congressional members stake their lane out. The Democrats are going to make it a national issue, though. And I do think we have to talk about this issue, because the Democrats will say we’re going to take it to the Senate and codify it. And so I think there’s a lot of discussion to be had, but we can’t just say it’s a state’s issue and be done.”
    Boy, this sure seems to indicate that the GOP realizes their position is unpopular to a point but has absolutely no plan on a party policy level of how to handle it. It's one of the "big tent" issues that Republicans have to grapple with and they're generally not very good at this, these issues require a lot of compromise and acceptance, two things the moder Republican party struggles with considerably.

    In the longrun, this might be good for Democrats and for women as Republicans will keep running up losses and we'll see more states codify access to reproductive health care as a right and not to get involved in individual, personal medical decisions. But I just worry about the continued suffering of many folks in conservative states that maintain draconian bans, with legislatures that are repeatedly told of the horror stories of some of their constituents under these laws and do absolutely nothing to tighten up the laws or otherwise attempt to address that suffering and prevent it moving forward.

  14. #7054
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Boy, this sure seems to indicate that the GOP realizes their position is unpopular to a point but has absolutely no plan on a party policy level of how to handle it. It's one of the "big tent" issues that Republicans have to grapple with and they're generally not very good at this, these issues require a lot of compromise and acceptance, two things the moder Republican party struggles with considerably.
    i'm just pontificating on a thought this sentence triggered, i'm not arguing against the central premise you're putting forth here.

    it's an interesting dichotomy to consider, because fundamentally whether wrong or wrong (and they are wrong) about their reasons for it, they view abortion as the wholesale slaughter of innocent human beings for morally unjustifiable reasons... which, without context, is something most people are against on general principle.

    the argument that they should abandon their beliefs because it's unpopular is a weird one to me, especially considering that it puts them between a rock and a hard place: stick to your convictions despite opposition and at least fight for what you believe in, or abandon your principles for the sake of political expediency.

    the idea of acceptance and compromise is kind of ludicrous in either direction - because on the one hand you're expecting acceptance and compromise on the wholesale slaughter of innocent human lives, and on the other hand you're expecting acceptance and compromise on the negation of personhood, bodily autonomy, and the right to life and healthiness via medical care.

    if instead of enshrining access to abortion in the state constitution ohio had passed an amendment that said you can kill blacks legally because they aren't people, nobody would be batting an eyelash if democrats refused to accept that and did everything they possibly could to fight it being implemented.
    (though let's be honest we're talking about democrats here so they'd just roll over and take it)

    In the longrun, this might be good for Democrats and for women as Republicans will keep running up losses and we'll see more states codify access to reproductive health care as a right and not to get involved in individual, personal medical decisions. But I just worry about the continued suffering of many folks in conservative states that maintain draconian bans, with legislatures that are repeatedly told of the horror stories of some of their constituents under these laws and do absolutely nothing to tighten up the laws or otherwise attempt to address that suffering and prevent it moving forward.
    and obviously this is why anti-abortionists are wrong on the subject - or at least, one of many many many reasons.

    it's a problem endemic to american society i think: the attitude that all honestly held beliefs are equally valid and that acceptance of other views, no matter how repugnant, should be considered equally at face value.
    or, at least, that's true for everyone who isn't a christofascist because for some reason they're allowed to just not abide by that.

  15. #7055
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    it's an interesting dichotomy to consider, because fundamentally whether wrong or wrong (and they are wrong) about their reasons for it, they view abortion as the wholesale slaughter of innocent human beings for morally unjustifiable reasons... which, without context, is something most people are against on general principle..

    the argument that they should abandon their beliefs because it's unpopular is a weird one to me, especially considering that it puts them between a rock and a hard place: stick to your convictions despite opposition and at least fight for what you believe in, or abandon your principles for the sake of political expediency.
    Unless their mistress needs one. Let's not give them the benefit of believing even they believe their own lies.

  16. #7056
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    the argument that they should abandon their beliefs because it's unpopular is a weird one to me, especially considering that it puts them between a rock and a hard place: stick to your convictions despite opposition and at least fight for what you believe in, or abandon your principles for the sake of political expediency.
    They can have their middle ages beliefs all they want and can personally live by them, but don't you think legislature should implement the will of the people? They are elected to represent the people and make laws on its behalf. So if a majority of the people wants access to healthcare including abortions legislature should act accordingly.

  17. #7057
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    Unless their mistress needs one. Let's not give them the benefit of believing even they believe their own lies.
    oh for sure, they're hypocrites through and through - anti-abortion beliefs only last until the second that one of these fucks needs/wants one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    They can have their middle ages beliefs all they want and can personally live by them, but don't you think legislature should implement the will of the people? They are elected to represent the people and make laws on its behalf. So if a majority of the people wants access to healthcare including abortions legislature should act accordingly.
    well i think that too is an interesting question, because you can legitimately flip that argument and you come up with some quandaries.

    there was a point where the will of the people was that homosexuality was a moral evil and that it was incumbent on society to outlaw it for the betterment of civilization, and yet many fought against that and soldiered on to legitimize homosexuality both in general and legally.
    the same is true for desegregation, the same is true for civil rights or women's suffrage.

    obviously we're looking at issues that to us (and be "us" i mean what seems to be the majority of posters in the politics subforum which seem to trend generally liberal) are completely different morally speaking and so it's easy for us to hand-wave the argument, but at the core of it the last hundred years of US socio-political history has one of fighting against the will of the majority in order to do what one thinks is right.

  18. #7058
    Yeah and people moved on from the middle ages and realized that everyone is a human and deserves the same respect and protections under the law.

    There'll be a day when "pro lifers" realize that abortions are, in fact, not people and move on from the middle ages too. Can't come fast enough that day.

  19. #7059
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...on-1234876160/



    Boy, this sure seems to indicate that the GOP realizes their position is unpopular to a point but has absolutely no plan on a party policy level of how to handle it. It's one of the "big tent" issues that Republicans have to grapple with and they're generally not very good at this, these issues require a lot of compromise and acceptance, two things the moder Republican party struggles with considerably.

    In the longrun, this might be good for Democrats and for women as Republicans will keep running up losses and we'll see more states codify access to reproductive health care as a right and not to get involved in individual, personal medical decisions. But I just worry about the continued suffering of many folks in conservative states that maintain draconian bans, with legislatures that are repeatedly told of the horror stories of some of their constituents under these laws and do absolutely nothing to tighten up the laws or otherwise attempt to address that suffering and prevent it moving forward.
    The time for talk about abortion is over. Simply put, GOP politicians can't be trusted when it comes to abortion.

    Glenn Youngkin campaigned for Virginia governor on a platform of education. The word "abortion" never left his mouth. Then he pushed for 15 weeks ban. He won't stop there either.

    On abortion, Gov. Youngkin says he’ll sign ‘any bill ... to protect life’

    Too bad for him, in Virginia, 49 percent of voters support the state’s existing law of a ban at 26 weeks, with health exceptions, and another 23 percent want even less restrictions. Only 24 percent want more restrictions.

    Ron DeSantis signed a 15-week ban, won re-election in November 2022, and then, in April 2023, signed a six-week ban.

    That erodes the credibility of any Republican trying to claim a 15-week ban would “settle” the matter forever. It freaking won't. Those GOP politicians will keep pushing for stricter and stricter bans. The loony wing of the party won't be happy until they have an absolute ban. Everybody knows that now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    We should add the Mifepristone lawsuit.

    There is a minority, but not insignificant, faction within the GOP that won’t be happy unless abortion in all forms is banned from conception. It even has members in Senate and House. Including the current speaker of the House. In some states, through the power of gerrymandering, the faction has iron grip on the legislatures.

    As Edge posted above, even after multiple defeats, the GOP politicians are still pushing from ever more restrictive abortion. All the talk about 15 weeks ban is nothing more than attempt to gain foothold and win elections.

    Fortunately, the pro-choice voters have become wise to that. The GOP mantra of “Democrats are pushing for late term abortions,” is not getting any traction. The reality is that later term abortions are rare and, as often mentioned here, almost exclusively performed for health issues.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2023-11-13 at 02:41 AM.

  20. #7060
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Fortunately, the pro-choice voters have become wise to that. The GOP mantra of “Democrats are pushing for late term abortions,” is not getting any traction. The reality is that later term abortions are rare and, as often mentioned here, almost exclusively performed for health issues.
    I do think the lack of frequent examples of the sensational claims of doctors reaching in there and breaking bones and fishing them out and having to slam the fetus against the table to kill it and then sending it off to the Washington DC power plant to be burned to generate steam to power the city does tend to make those claims fairly difficult to take seriously. Even if one of their members has made them in front of Congress.

    Compared to the fairly frequent examples we have from multiple states of women who had every intention of carrying a pregnancy to term, often being extremely "pro-life" themselves, suffering pointlessly and risking their lives over pregnancies that were non-viable and needed to be ended but couldn't be due to state law. Requiring those women to either have to find travel to a state where they could get the medical care they needed, or wait until the pregnancy went so badly that their life was in danger which would allow the hospital to treat the patient with considerably lower legal exposure/liability.

    Those very personal stories of things that actually happen, and with some regularity, are pretty powerful.

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