1. #7241
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Arguments between people with opposing views shouldn't always have to be contentious
    Arguments between people with opposing views doesn't have to result in animosity. But arguments between people with opposing endgames will, definitely, result in animosity.

    This is not a conflict of ideas on how to improve things. This is a conflict that came from a disagreement on whether to improve things. Or even to make things worse.

    To put in less indirect terms, this is a conflict between people who want to do good, and people who vehemently oppose doing good. Not a conflict between people trying to debate each other which methods are the best for achieving good.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  2. #7242
    For me the one point I may concede to the pro-life stance is whether the fetus deserves recognition as a human, at least past a point of development.

    I still think it is completely irrelevant to the point of abortion though. Our right to control our own bodies supersedes the right to life of others for very obvious reasons and trying to reverse the order of importance of these rights quickly leads to absolutely dystopic scenarios even before the corruption of cultural systems is taken into account.

  3. #7243
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    For me the one point I may concede to the pro-life stance is whether the fetus deserves recognition as a human, at least past a point of development.
    But why...when it's
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    completely irrelevant to the point of abortion
    There's absolutely no need to even entertain that distraction unless and until pro-birth slime move to repeal all eviction laws and make organ donation mandatory/compulsory.

  4. #7244
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    I think that the disconnect is partly due to the problem that most pro-choice people already concede that the fetus deserves recognition as a human at a certain point of development. Every woman that gets pregnant has that happen to them naturally, by virtue of the fact that it's living inside them. The question is whose recognition has more merit, the woman or the fetus? Who gets to decide? Pro-choice stands with the mother because they're the ones most affected by that decision, not society.

    Pro-life people tend to want to further solidify that recognition to all of society(laws), acting as if the pregnant woman herself hasn't already had that conversation. It's unnecessary in my opinion. Much of the pro-life propaganda we've seen over the years has tainted the view that women who get abortions, and the medical field that supports the ability to perform abortions, are doing so maliciously, or at the very least are seen in a negative light.
    Absolutely. It is just that you posited that question and I offered an example from a pure philosophical perspective under normative circumstances.

    The issue of bad faith is really the crucial difference in abortion legislation between the US and other places. Many other countries have significant restrictions on abortion. But there is a presumption of good faith when it comes to claiming exemptions which thankfully is very rarely tested. Meanwhile the same laws in the US would not work because as Paxton makes it clear, there can only be a presumption of bad faith; every claim of exemption will be tested with utmost hostility. The only think that can work in the US is blanket access.

    As for whether there is value in changing laws when it comes to recognition of the fetus, I confess I have not thought about that extensively. Off the top of my head I'd say that perhaps it could affect inheritance law or proportional punishment for physical assault to a pregnant person that causes fetal distress or death. Obviously the latter is not something I'd discuss for the US again because of my presumption that many states would use such a change in the worst of faith.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-12-13 at 09:19 AM.

  5. #7245
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    If I was trying to become popular in these parts, I would instantly accept your advice.
    Instead of popular why don't you shoot for being right, or just within the realm of right, rather than having one dumb ass, shitty take after the next.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    The Texas Law does not include exceptions for severe fetal abnormalities. I am pro-life and I support exceptions for severe fetal abnormalities. The Texas case appears to be one.
    "I'm okay with being awful to 99.9999999999999% of women, but that last fraction is okay." Is fucking stupid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Again, we're probably engaging on an internet forum with different purposes.
    Yes, your purpose is to control 12 year old girls into having children, while everyone else is trying their best to not be a pedophile.

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

  6. #7246
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    No it's not.
    He's just saying he doesn't have the balls to be as deplorable in real life.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  7. #7247
    How sick do you have to be to get an abortion in Texas?

    In the case of Amanda Zurawski, lead plaintiff in CRR lawsuit against Texas, the literal death bed. Her water broke early. In California, she either would have early induced labor or abortion performed. Standard treatments. However, this is Texas, and since the fetus had a weak hearbeat, she was sent home. Three days later she had severe sepsis with raging fever, and ended up in the ICU. In the aftermath, she ended up with severely scarred uterus which makes future pregnancy very dangerous.

    Cristina Nuñez's doctors had always advised her not to get pregnant. She has diabetes, end-stage renal disease and other health conditions, and when she unexpectedly did become pregnant, her health quickly deteriorated. She had to increase the amount of time she spent in dialysis, and suffered from painful blood clots. When one of her arms turned black from blood clots, she went to a Texas emergency room. She was diagnosed with a deep vein thrombosis, eclampsia and an embolism. The hospital still would not provide an abortion. She had to obtain an attorney who threatened to sue the hospital.

    The is no words to described the level of callousness of lawmakers that put forth gruesome legislations such as these and, subsequenlty, refused to make changes after seeing the detrimental effects.

    It is notable that these two cases provide the State of Texas with a chance to provide clear guidelines of what constitute “medical emergency.” Instead, the defense relied strictly on procedural ground. Such as wordings between “good faith judgement” vs. “reasonable medical judgement.” Or claiming that the women never tried to apply for medical exemptions. Disregarding the fact that several of them were already in the middle of active miscarriage when the decision to perform abortion was raised.

    Also, most of these women came from privileged backgrounds. Mrs. Zurawski and her her husband are tech workers in Austin. One of the plaintiff is a an OB/Gyn. Her colleagues and hospital refused to perform abortion for her, and she was forced to go to another state. There are likely hundreds, if not thousands of cases of women without the resources of the plaintiffs that we never heard of. All we had to do is look at Texas latest maternal mortality rate report. Which publication was delayed for months by the legislators. I would be ashamed showing those kind of numbers also.

  8. #7248
    Weirdly, Kellyanne Conway seems to be trying to save Republicans on this topic.

    Kellyanne Conway is going to Capitol Hill on Wednesday with a message for Republicans: promote contraception or risk defeat in 2024.

    The former senior counselor and campaign manager for President Donald Trump is part of a group set to brief Republicans on how they might get ahead of Democrats’ attacks that the GOP is anti-woman by talking more about protecting contraception and less about banning abortion.
    Which, if you have a deeply unpopular message on abortion access is actually a good and sensible strategy to reframe the discussion in a way that's positive for you!

    Meaningful action on contraception, they argue, could help Republicans with their own base and with Democrats dissatisfied with President Joe Biden.

    “You’ve got a fair number of Democrats saying that they want an alternative to Biden and Harris, or they may sit it out,” Conway said in an interview. “He’s especially bleeding young voters, who you would think would be animated and interested to hear about [contraception], and who are in the prime of their years and choosing to conceive or not to conceive.”
    Honestly, this would likely win back a fair amount of support for Congressional races and the like for Republicans if they could keep the extremist talk quiet and just focus on topics where there's strong public support.

    The message, they plan to stress, is that Republicans need to talk more about what they are for and less about what they oppose.

    “Republicans are like your uncle, who really loves you and loves the women in his family, but he’s bad about showing it,” Higgins said in an interview. “It’s just not in their natural vocabulary. And we’re trying to help them learn how to make this be more part of their vocabulary and tell them that they need to talk about these things that their constituents all support, and be more visible and vocal.”
    Darn, that sounds super woke to me.

    The longtime GOP pollster told POLITICO that while it’s no shock that contraception is popular, particularly as states move to outlaw most abortions, she was struck by some of the poll results, including how many conservatives believe Congress should ensure access to contraception regardless of cost.

    “I’ve been doing this for over three decades and I’m very surprised that over 8 in 10 independents and over 8 in 10 pro-lifers would agree with that,” she said. “Because some people say: ‘You may have a right to contraception but why am I paying for it?’ That’s the classic libertarian argument."
    It is the classic libertarian argument, and it's stupid and ignores the shared costs of unplanned pregnancies and children. Unless you're going to leave those suckers on the streets for charities to deal with because the state should apparently have no vested interest in ensuring abandoned children don't starve/freeze to death.

    “It won’t work,” said Sara Spain, the spokesperson for the group EMILYS List, which funds and coaches candidates who support reproductive rights. “Actions speak louder than words and voters know which lawmakers stand with the majority of Americans and which don’t. So efforts like this attempted rebrand won’t do much, because we’ve all seen their record and we’ve seen they are willing to ban abortion and contraception.”

    Organizations like EMILYS List plan to keep that record firmly on voters’ radar going into next year.
    Sara is correct here. Unless Conway can get the whole Republican party, nationally, on board with this there will be enough state-level extremists openly discussing total abortion bans "from the moment of conception" (which as a reminder is not a thing) to use as anchors around the necks of other party members.

    For example, House Republicans’ spending bills, set to come up for a vote early next year, would eliminate funding for the Title X family planning program and the Teen Pregnancy Prevention Program — both of which provide contraception to millions of people who might not otherwise be able to afford it. And last summer, Senate Republicans blocked the House-passed Right to Contraception Act, which would have enshrined the right to contraception into federal law.
    Or they can just like, literally point to bills proposed by the current House Republican caucus.

    Higgins hopes the survey convinces Republican members of Congress that these efforts do not reflect their constituents’ views and play right into Democrats’ hands.

    “If any conservatives believe that this is what the pro-life world actually wants, it might help break through to them and explain to them that even among the most pro-life conservatives, you find this strong support for safe, modern, effective, accessible contraception ... available for everyone,” she said.
    It'd be nice if they at least got on board with this.

    But I don't think anyone here paying any attention has high hopes of success for Conway.

  9. #7249
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Weirdly, Kellyanne Conway seems to be trying to save Republicans on this topic.



    Which, if you have a deeply unpopular message on abortion access is actually a good and sensible strategy to reframe the discussion in a way that's positive for you!



    Honestly, this would likely win back a fair amount of support for Congressional races and the like for Republicans if they could keep the extremist talk quiet and just focus on topics where there's strong public support.



    Darn, that sounds super woke to me.



    It is the classic libertarian argument, and it's stupid and ignores the shared costs of unplanned pregnancies and children. Unless you're going to leave those suckers on the streets for charities to deal with because the state should apparently have no vested interest in ensuring abandoned children don't starve/freeze to death.



    Sara is correct here. Unless Conway can get the whole Republican party, nationally, on board with this there will be enough state-level extremists openly discussing total abortion bans "from the moment of conception" (which as a reminder is not a thing) to use as anchors around the necks of other party members.



    Or they can just like, literally point to bills proposed by the current House Republican caucus.



    It'd be nice if they at least got on board with this.

    But I don't think anyone here paying any attention has high hopes of success for Conway.
    Look up states with most women living in contraceptive desert.

    Look up states with the most teenage pregnancy.

    Look up states with most repeat teenage pregnancy.

    No comment.

  10. #7250
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    My hope in all this intentional dystopia around this topic, is that these politicians run out of moderates they can manipulate until the moderates tell them to fuck off. I hope that's what we see next year. It's certainly on my mind, and my family's mind.


    For a country full of conservatives who love to tell everyone how much they distrust government, they sure do take what their brand of politicians say pretty seriously and honestly.
    Only way that happens is if the Republicans get hammered in the next couple elections over this, enough to force a party-wide change in strategy on the subject. And by hammered I mean losing not only the Presidency by a landslide but probably both chambers of Congress too, which flatly isn't going to happen. Losses less severe than this will have be the cost of doing business, and those States with extremist legislatures will continue to screw over women in accordance with their beliefs, just like before Roe, and it'll take decades before any Supreme Court comes close to reigning them in.

    Republican distrust of government only manifests when it comes to topics that they don't like. When it comes to taxes, or guns, or business/environmental regulations, of course they're for small government. But when it comes to countering illegal immigration, or abortion, or those darn antifa SJW woke enemies of the State, then they're all-in on the government doing whatever is required to bring about the desired results all of a sudden. It's not unique to Americans either, our Conservatives here in old Canada are all for provincial powers and autonomy until said provinces, for example, block oil pipelines that they want, then all of a sudden it's time for the federal government to force their hands because everyone should like pipelines.
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  11. #7251
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Look up states with most women living in contraceptive desert.

    Look up states with the most teenage pregnancy.

    Look up states with most repeat teenage pregnancy.

    No comment.
    I mean sure, you can point out how the policies that Republicans pursue accomplish the exact opposite of their stated goals and we can look to the mountains of data that support that claim.

    That won't mean that any of these conservative folks will believe you or even look at the data, because that would make their continued positions and claims that they actually do care about these things really difficult to square.

  12. #7252
    Let all these GOP bastards and the people still following them drown in the blood of the victims of their draconian ways. That's the only way we'll be free of them, unfortunately.

  13. #7253
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean sure, you can point out how the policies that Republicans pursue accomplish the exact opposite of their stated goals and we can look to the mountains of data that support that claim.

    That won't mean that any of these conservative folks will believe you or even look at the data, because that would make their continued positions and claims that they actually do care about these things really difficult to square.
    I found Kelly Ann-Conway telling GOP to promote contraception to be pretty hilarious. Personally, I don't think it will work. Per the lady from EMILY's list, "we have seen their records."

  14. #7254
    Epic! Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Look up states with most women living in contraceptive desert.

    Look up states with the most teenage pregnancy.

    Look up states with most repeat teenage pregnancy.

    No comment.
    Don't forget to look up states with Abstinence-Only as the primary topic in school sex ed classes.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  15. #7255
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/ted-...texas-abortion

    Ted Cruz has no actual response when asked about his state's AG's behavior and the current situation with Cate Cox.

    He simply refers to the press office because he probably knows he doesn't have any comments on the topic that won't piss off a large group of people he relies on.

  16. #7256
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/ted-...texas-abortion

    Ted Cruz has no actual response when asked about his state's AG's behavior and the current situation with Cate Cox.

    He simply refers to the press office because he probably knows he doesn't have any comments on the topic that won't piss off a large group of people he relies on.
    All Texas politicians are dodging this right now. Cornyn is doing the same thing.

  17. #7257
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I found Kelly Ann-Conway telling GOP to promote contraception to be pretty hilarious. Personally, I don't think it will work. Per the lady from EMILY's list, "we have seen their records."
    It's highly doubtful that they will follow her. The foundation of the "pro-life" movement is that women should have to face the repercussions of having sex, and birth control flies in the face of that.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  18. #7258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I found Kelly Ann-Conway telling GOP to promote contraception to be pretty hilarious. Personally, I don't think it will work. Per the lady from EMILY's list, "we have seen their records."
    She didn't say the most important part.
    "Until after the election"
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  19. #7259
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    Another casual reminder that the "pro life" nomenclature is incorrect. Conservatives have never been pro life. They're pro forced birth. It's become very clear over the last two years that letting women and fetuses die because conservative legislation limiting women's reproductive care literally kills them. They don't give a shit about life, and no matter how much @tehdang or anyone else ties themselves in knots to justify all of this and how it would work in theory, the reality is that conservative prosecutors are punishing women who are having involuntary miscarriages because they're under suspicion for killing their fetus, even when doctors and professionals say that no such thing happened.

    Cruelty is the point, and the cruelty of the Republican party is going to cost them in future elections.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
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  20. #7260
    This guy Leonard Leo, needs to be in the crosshairs for stacking courts with the types of people that would purposely take away a woman's right to her own body. Behind the scenes, he's been stacking the decks and forcing picks to go his way.

    https://www.whitehouse.senate.gov/ne...billion-payday

    https://www.propublica.org/article/w...-supermajority

    https://www.acslaw.org/analysis/reports/dark-money/

    https://accountable.us/leonard-leos-...ling-revealed/

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