1. #7301
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    In a perfect world, this woman would discover she has a malignant cancer that will 100% kill her very painfully and slowly, but is completely curable by modern medical treatment, and when she goes in for an assessment, the Doctor would tell her that while they COULD treat her cancer, she really just needs to live out the life that God planned for her when he gave it to her in the first place.
    It's always fascinating that these people claim to speak for God. Maybe God wanted this abortion to happen, and by preventing it, she's the one defying God's will.

    They really need to just shut the fuck up about God. Nobody gives a shit what you imagine in your own head about your own personal God. That's not my God, and that means whatever you believe is absolutely 100% irrelevant, and someone trying to force their views on me is violence that deserves only violence in response.

    At best, you've got a faith group who share a particular view of God, and that's fine. But that belief still has no validity or truth outside that group. You can't prove any of it to be true, it's just a shared fiction you enjoy.

    And if anyone wants to take issue with me describing it as a "fiction", feel free to provide objective proof of some particular God. Fictions have power; we're a species that tell each other stories. I'm not dismissing the value you might derive from your faith. I'm denying that it has any objectively determinable truth to its god-claims. If it did, it wouldn't require faith. And until you've got objectively determinable truth on your side, it's just your story against my story and everyone else's story, and nobody's story is any "better" than anyone else's, and you can fuck off if you try and force me to give up my views and adopt yours. I'll fight you every step of the way. And I mean physically, if it gets pushed to that point. Religious fascism is an ideological disease and cannot be permitted to prosper.


  2. #7302
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    There's the compromise. A bipartisan group of voters comes together to push legal abortion into later weeks, while still blocking it from the very late-term. (And language might need to change to still accomplish the latter part, or the amendment might be defeated for the same. Just talking about the principle here)
    If late term abortions are outright banned we're still going to have the issue of fetuses or women with life threatening conditions being denied care.

    These fantasy scenarios where women get late term abortions "for funsies" that Republicans like to point to are just that, fantasies.
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  3. #7303
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    I'm not going to quote him because I prefer him on ignore, but the "compromise" is exactly what we had. A fairly restricted early-term abortion, with a few exceptions for late-term abortions in the case of deformity and danger to the mother. The 'cons took away compromise in favor of extremism. You already got compromise. You didn't want it.

    The half-way point between "reasonable living temperate" and "absolute zero" is still death. So yeah, fuck every single conservative who talks about "compromise".
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  4. #7304
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I'm not going to quote him because I prefer him on ignore, but the "compromise" is exactly what we had. A fairly restricted early-term abortion, with a few exceptions for late-term abortions in the case of deformity and danger to the mother. The 'cons took away compromise in favor of extremism. You already got compromise. You didn't want it.

    The half-way point between "reasonable living temperate" and "absolute zero" is still death. So yeah, fuck every single conservative who talks about "compromise".
    And just to make the point, Canada's had zero legal restrictions on abortion since the '80s. Roe V. Wade isn't the "other side", that is. And it's caused absolutely no suffering or negative consequence here. We have lower abortion rates than the USA did before Roe v. Wade collapsed. Canada is the horrorscape pro-life advocates fear. Look upon us, ye mighty, and despair?

    Meanwhile, American women are being directly harmed on the daily because of these pro-life laws banning abortions.

    The time's come to abandon compromise and stand up for women's freedom of choice and self-ownership.


  5. #7305
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I'm not going to quote him because I prefer him on ignore, but the "compromise" is exactly what we had. A fairly restricted early-term abortion, with a few exceptions for late-term abortions in the case of deformity and danger to the mother. The 'cons took away compromise in favor of extremism. You already got compromise. You didn't want it.

    The half-way point between "reasonable living temperate" and "absolute zero" is still death. So yeah, fuck every single conservative who talks about "compromise".
    The issue I run into a lot is people who do have deeply religious beliefs, or beliefs that are founded in religion, and so they'll just take one look at abortion and say, "That's killing a baby!" and ignore every argument or explanation that might say otherwise. I have no idea how to approach people like that, and don't know if I even should try to talk to them about it.

  6. #7306
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    The issue I run into a lot is people who do have deeply religious beliefs, or beliefs that are founded in religion, and so they'll just take one look at abortion and say, "That's killing a baby!" and ignore every argument or explanation that might say otherwise. I have no idea how to approach people like that, and don't know if I even should try to talk to them about it.
    You shouldn't. They're religious extremists. Their position isn't based on reason or evidence, but divine command.


  7. #7307
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You shouldn't. They're religious extremists. Their position isn't based on reason or evidence, but divine command.
    I guess. My boss is on the "you should probably stop abortions at the time there's a heartbeat, barring exceptions for rape, incest, or medical problems for the baby or the mother" train. And even one of my younger coworkers feels that "women being pregnant is just a consequence of their actions, and they should live with the consequences". I tried explaining that they can live with the consequences by getting an abortion, and he was... mixed on it. Sort of a, "Yeah, I get that women would have to live with the emotional trauma of that decision so I can see it" but also still leaning on the side of pro-life. He might not be a lost cause, but my boss definitely is.

  8. #7308
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    And even one of my younger coworkers feels that "women being pregnant is just a consequence of their actions, and they should live with the consequences"
    And this right here is the heart of the pro-life movement: controlling people's (mostly women's) sexual behavior by enforcing consequences.
    Last edited by Gestopft; 2023-12-22 at 04:56 PM.
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  9. #7309
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Ooof. Misogynism at its worst. You should ask them what consequences the man who got her pregnant should face.
    Well, unfortunately, he was also talking about how, "I know women who have gotten pregnant just so they can get child support/government assistance and not have to work." so something tells me he wouldn't exactly accept the man should have consequences too.

  10. #7310
    Poke them about something in their own life until you get a "that's none of your goddamn business" and hit back with a "neither if some woman wants an abortion".

  11. #7311
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Ooof. Misogynism at its worst. You should ask them what consequences the man who got her pregnant should face.
    Clearly none. Her body, her choice, the man has no say. Thank third wave feminism for that one.

  12. #7312
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    Clearly none. Her body, her choice, the man has no say. Thank third wave feminism for that one.
    ...but in a pro-life world, it isn't actually her choice, so this doesn't make sense...
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
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  13. #7313
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    You're aware that a man's sperm is required for pregnancy, right? Women don't just get spontaneously pregnant. That man stuck his penis in her.
    The fact that he even brought up feminism as some counter to being against abortion should pretty much tell you his argument is rooted in misogyny.
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  14. #7314
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    The fact that he's confusing consequence with responsibility is the larger issue. Cause and effect is the natural order to things.
    Oh there's no confusion. This is the vitriol spewed by the pro-life crowd that blames women for having sex that results in pregnancy. You're absolutely right there is a natural order of things, but for those like him it's never the man's fault.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

  15. #7315
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    Clearly none. Her body, her choice, the man has no say. Thank third wave feminism for that one.
    So, you are saying when men rape women, they don't have to take responsibility? I really shouldn't be surprised by hateful conservative narratives at this point.
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  16. #7316
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    The issue I run into a lot is people who do have deeply religious beliefs, or beliefs that are founded in religion, and so they'll just take one look at abortion and say, "That's killing a baby!" and ignore every argument or explanation that might say otherwise. I have no idea how to approach people like that, and don't know if I even should try to talk to them about it.
    Tell them to get bent. Their religion doesn't control other people and if they think it should, then they're a fascist twat and should be called on their desire to run a theocracy. They should be shamed into the ground for spitting on American ideals. Who cares if their reaction is to double down? Others have tried to educate them, they've had ample opportunity to educate themselves. They've chosen the path of suffering and oppression in the name of "god" so, fuck 'em.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  17. #7317
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    You're aware that a man's sperm is required for pregnancy, right? Women don't just get spontaneously pregnant. That man stuck his penis in her.

    Show me another scenario in life where 2 parties come together to create something, yet only one is responsible for creating it.
    When you tell an author "hey, I had this cool idea" in passing conversation, and then the author spends countless hours writing a book that uses that idea.
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  18. #7318
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Their religion doesn't control other people
    Yes, but...those people are absolutely convinced that it should.

    Who cares if their reaction is to double down?
    We should, because if given an opportunity to impose their religious "values", they will.

    Try to reason religious bigots out of their bigotry is a fascinatingly tall order. Like I've been keeping track of the whole debate currently ongoing inside the Catholic church around same sex couples and how they are retreated.

    Being gay is still a sin, the only BIG PROGRESSIVE change the Pope is asking from the Church is that gay people not to be completely excluded from the Church and their "sin" to be treated like almost any other sin...Like technically a Catholic being married to a none Catholic is in a "sinful" marriage, or living with your partner unmarried is "sinful" but 99.99% of Churches won't kick anyone out because of that. That's literally the only thing the Pope is asking here...

    The reaction of a segment of the Church, countless conservative Cardinals and Bishops etc is to fully and openly go against Rome over this, literally shitting on 1000 years of Catholic tradition regarding the role of Rome in determining dogma, just because the Pope dared ask them to be consistent about how they deal with "sin" and to keep their doors open to "all sinners" equally. Like they will literally fucking schism over this.

    There's almost no argument you can make to ever talk people out of bigotry when its intertwined with religion.

  19. #7319
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    There's almost no argument you can make to ever talk people out of bigotry when its intertwined with religion.
    Yes, that's my point. You don't talk try to convince them. You force them out into the open. You force them to wear their horrid views on their forehead. You can't change them but you can make other people, people whose minds can still be changed, see just how abhorrent and dangerous Christo-fascist ideologies are.
    Last edited by Sunseeker; 2023-12-22 at 07:56 PM.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  20. #7320
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Excellent point, and it should be hammered home with the fact that Catholics see the Pope as the living version of God. They are literally against God as they themselves defined the existence of God on earth, and don't care, because gay people want the same things as other "sinners" do.
    Whoa. No offense, but that's not how Catholics see the Pope or the function of the Pope. Catholics don't even believe that the Pope has a direct line of communication to God. (Not a Catholic here, but that statement is so heretical that the whole Spanish Inquisition turned in their graves in the urge to burn you at the stake.)

    First of all...Papal infallibility is a relatively new concept (by Catholic standards). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_...20tradition%22.

    The Pope is the direct successor the Apostle Peter (famous for constantly fucking up) but who Jesus supposedly made chief among the apostles. Thus the idea of Papal Supremacy. As in the Papacy has priority interpreting and determining dogma. Basically Jesus (God) made the Pope brand manager.

    But, in practical terms dogma is almost never directly dictated by the Pope. Instead the Pope calls for a Synod (big nerdy meeting, where Bishops, Cardinals etc and increasingly Lay people with background in theology etc) where they debate things out internally and kinda vote/agree on a consensus under the "guidance" of the Pope who then makes the whole thing "legally binding".

    The Pope's influence on how these Synods go comes from his ability to appoint Bishops and Cardinals and fire others, also by determining who participates in the Synod (in the last Synod he invited a bunch of nuns and lay people too) so in a way stacking the vote in whichever direction he wants to take things.

    Francis spent much of his time as Pope removing all the ultra-right lunatics the previous Pope, the Hitler Youth guy, appointed. Like the Hitler Youth guy horribly padded especially the US with absolutely nutty right wing TradCath bishops and cardinals.

    The Catholic church is a really complicated thing, but this pope didn't just decide to dictate policy here. The Synod approved these measures, part based on theological consistency and part on looking at polling data, statistics and social trends and realizing that when half of like fucking Gen Z is bi or something something, if they wanna survive the 21st century they need bums in seats in Churches and this bigotry shit is just not working. Like this decision is very utilitarian, but also happens to make theological sense.

    But again, you can't use reason or appeals to empathy with bigots. They just don't give a shit.
    Last edited by Elder Millennial; 2023-12-22 at 08:39 PM.

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