SCOTUS removes Roe V Wade

[Gaidax]

Uh huh and what exactly is the “limit of sanity” on the issue being pushed?

Whether you think someone should legally be able to call themself a man or a woman and how they choose to dress has absolutely zero bearing on your life.

And they can, however it does not mean that everyone should oblige and fall in line with their personal preferences.

For example, I'm in a strong belief that a person should be able to do whatever they want with their own body or love whoever they want as long as there is a mutual consent and it's not minors or some sort of exploitation involved.

That's why I support abortions, trans, and gay rights. By all means feel free to live the one life you have as you will, so you live out a life with no regrets.

But it is also true in reverse and that is the part that far left seem have forgot there in their vigor. It's all nice and good, until you stick your nose into other people's beeswax and try to force them to oblige your personal tastes and needs over theirs, especially if they are the overwhelming majority.

[Edge-]

And they can, however it does not mean that everyone should oblige and fall in line with their personal preferences.

For example, I'm in a strong belief that a person should be able to do whatever they want with their own body or love whoever they want as long as there is a mutual consent and it's not minors or some sort of exploitation involved.

That's why I support abortions, trans, and gay rights. By all means feel free to live the one life you have as you will, so you live out a life with no regrets.

But it is also true in reverse and that is the part that far left seem have forgot there in their vigor. It's all nice and good, until you stick your nose into other people's beeswax and try to force them to oblige your personal tastes and needs over theirs, especially if they are the overwhelming majority.

I'll note no "limit of sanity" is expressed here, and the vague, general sentiment could be similarly used to defend White Only bathrooms and drinking fountains because we just need to tolerate their personal tastes of not wanting to go to bathrooms or drink from the same drinking fountain as negroes. For quite some time, the overwhelming majority was opposed to desegregation as well. Hell, we had to have the US Military protect Black children going to school.

Note: I'm not saying that's what you're arguing, much less arguing intentionally, but just pointing that out.

[Endus]

And they can, however it does not mean that everyone should oblige and fall in line with their personal preferences.

For example, I'm in a strong belief that a person should be able to do whatever they want with their own body or love whoever they want as long as there is a mutual consent and it's not minors or some sort of exploitation involved.

That's why I support abortions, trans, and gay rights. By all means feel free to live the one life you have as you will, so you live out a life with no regrets.

But it is also true in reverse and that is the part that far left seem have forgot there in their vigor. It's all nice and good, until you stick your nose into other people's beeswax and try to force them to oblige your personal tastes and needs over theirs, especially if they are the overwhelming majority.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

The only people shoving their noses into other people's business is the right wingers who're trying to legislate against trans identities, gay rights, and so on.

The moment you stop doing so and let people just be themselves, there's no longer grounds for disputes over trans women in bathrooms and women's sports, LGBTQ+ representation and protections, or denying women their basic self-ownership. What has the "left" forgotten? They're not sticking their noses in anyone else's "beeswax", other than to call people assholes for trying to lift up women's skirts to do a genital check or tell a woman she isn't fully a human being with the rights and protections that derive from that.

If they stopped being bigoted assholes, there wouldn't be a "debate". There isn't really any "debate" over these issues; there's just bigots being bigots and demanding that their bigotry be given a seat at the table.

Nobody's telling you that you need to be gay or date a trans girl or whatever. What are you talking about?

I'm of the opinion that anyone demanding gender "verification" in bathrooms and sports needs to be criminally charged for some form of sex crime or harassment. Stop trying to look in people's pants or under their dresses, you creeps. I don't see the meaningful difference between it and putting cameras in womens' bathrooms/showers, or trying to take upskirt photos of random ladies.

[Edge-]

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

The only people shoving their noses into other people's business is the right wingers who're trying to legislate against trans identities, gay rights, and so on.

The moment you stop doing so and let people just be themselves, there's no longer grounds for disputes over trans women in bathrooms and women's sports, LGBTQ+ representation and protections, or denying women their basic self-ownership. What has the "left" forgotten? They're not sticking their noses in anyone else's "beeswax", other than to call people assholes for trying to lift up women's skirts to do a genital check or tell a woman she isn't fully a human being with the rights and protections that derive from that.

If they stopped being bigoted assholes, there wouldn't be a "debate". There isn't really any "debate" over these issues; there's just bigots being bigots and demanding that their bigotry be given a seat at the table.

Nobody's telling you that you need to be gay or date a trans girl or whatever. What are you talking about?

I'm of the opinion that anyone demanding gender "verification" in bathrooms and sports needs to be criminally charged for some form of sex crime or harassment. Stop trying to look in people's pants or under their dresses, you creeps.

It's incredible how perfectly this topic and the topic of this thread both dovetail into, "Mind your own fucking business and keep out of the business of others that doesn't impact you."

[Gaidax]

I'll note no "limit of sanity" is expressed here, and the vague, general sentiment could be similarly used to defend White Only bathrooms and drinking fountains because we just need to tolerate their personal tastes of not wanting to go to bathrooms or drink from the same drinking fountain as negroes. For quite some time, the overwhelming majority was opposed to desegregation as well. Hell, we had to have the US Military protect Black children going to school.

Note: I'm not saying that's what you're arguing, much less arguing intentionally, but just pointing that out.

I feel like it's plenty obvious what I meant with that, and there is no real need to play pretend here.

[Malkiah]

It's all nice and good, until you stick your nose into other people's beeswax and try to force them to oblige your personal tastes and needs over theirs, especially if they are the overwhelming majority.

it's interesting how much heavy lifting this sentence is doing in your overall point, because in context what you're saying here is that ethnic and cultural minorities saying "i exist and freely express my self identity" is "sticking your nose in other people's beeswax to try and force them to try to oblige your personal tastes".

i don't see any difference between accepting a person for being trans as accepting a person for being jewish or being from south korea or a weeb or super into country music - there are some expressions of self i find relatable and some i find annoying, and i may personally self exclude in my own life which of those types i surround myself with, but i don't give a single fuck what i bump into out in the world or that they exist.

you're framing this as "your existence, my convenience" which is fundamentally an absolute shithead way to go about it, and endus and edge are going to crawl all the way up inside your asshole and set up a drum circle if you persist in doing so.

[Endus]

I feel like it's plenty obvious what I meant with that, and there is no real need to play pretend here.

Speaking as someone on the outside of the conversation, it's really not obvious. You suggested there was some "limit to sanity" on gender politics that the Dems pushed beyond. You say you support trans rights, so that's about the far limit of what Dems pushed, or really anyone, so I don't see what "limit" you could possibly be talking about.

[Kaleredar]

And they can, however it does not mean that everyone should oblige and fall in line with their personal preferences.

Think of it like this.

You go up to someone and ask their name. They tell you it’s Gary. You say “no, I think your name should be shitface McGee.” And they say “I’d really prefer you call me Gary,” and you respond with “I’m not obliged to fall in line with your personal preference.”

You know what that would make you? A dick. And people would be right to call you a dick.

Now imagine if you were fighting to pass a law to ensure that that guy’s name was “shitface McGee” and he couldn’t identify any other way. And telling everyone that you won’t oblige people named Gary and that people telling you to call him Gary are actually attacking your rights. Why that would make you a fucking lunatic, wouldnt it?

[Edge-]

I feel like it's plenty obvious what I meant with that, and there is no real need to play pretend here.

I'm not interested in silly games. Speak (well, write) plainly and be direct, I'm a poor dancer.

[Polgara]

Why is "asking you to use my pronouns or my preferred name" somehow sticking my nose in other people's business? If you support my existence, or abortion in a more topic-relevant case, how you feel shouldn't be worth shit. Misgender or deadname me or passing judgement or what someone else should have done when practicing bodily autonomy just makes you a liar and an asshole. Anyone who tries to pull bathrooms is definitely not supporting trans rights (same with birth control and abortion with regards to bodily autonomy).

This is just the usual terminally-online bullshit that gets peddled; same with abortion rights, idiots who can't not be idiots seek out their preferred biases using the power of global communication. I just want to use a toilet, I just want to be recognised based on how I identify. If these things are me pushing into other people's business those people should nut up and ask me out instead of being weird perverted creeps.

[Jastall]

I feel like it's plenty obvious what I meant with that, and there is no real need to play pretend here.

I'm admittedly not really into the whole identity politics circus myself, but I also don't know what you're talking about. I can't ever remember anything being shoved in my face as to transpeople. I've only met one admittedly but it wasn't like she was demanding anything. She was a she, X was her name, that's all anyone at my work knew or needed to know.

[Gaidax]

I'm not interested in silly games. Speak (well, write) plainly and be direct, I'm a poor dancer.

Okay sure, let me give you some examples of things 80%+ of the population of US would agree on.

• Trans athletes should not compete in women divisions.
• Men who identify as women should not go to women jail.
• Schools should not hide children gender identity from parents.

These are just 3 examples of such cases.

• In case of athletes, you have a UN report has hundreds of cases of female athletes losing to trans men in various competitions.
• In case of men who identify as women, you have cases where such male inmates sexually harassed or raped female inmates in prison.
• And the final is obvious, given parents/guardians have legal responsibility for their children wellbeing.

Ask 10 people on the street what they think about that - 8 answers will be "this is fucked up". So that's where the envelope of sanity was breached.

[Muzjhath]

Okay sure, let me give you some examples of things 80%+ of the population of US would agree on.

• Trans athletes should not compete in women divisions.
• Men who identify as women should not go to women jail.
• Schools should not hide children gender identity from parents.

These are just 3 examples of such cases.

• In case of athletes, you have a UN report has hundreds of cases of female athletes losing to trans men in various competitions.
• In case of men who identify as women, you have cases where such male inmates sexually harassed or raped female inmates in prison.
• And the final is obvious, given parents/guardians have legal responsibility for their children wellbeing.

Ask 10 people on the street what they think about that - 8 answers will be "this is fucked up". So that's where the envelope of sanity was breached.

In the last case
What if telling the parents will cause the child to be thrown out, killed, or abused?

[Doomcookie]

Okay sure, let me give you some examples of things 80%+ of the population of US would agree on.

• Trans athletes should not compete in women divisions.
• Men who identify as women should not go to women jail.
• Schools should not hide children gender identity from parents.

These are just 3 examples of such cases.

• In case of athletes, you have a UN report has hundreds of cases of female athletes losing to trans men in various competitions.
• In case of men who identify as women, you have cases where such male inmates sexually harassed or raped female inmates in prison.
• And the final is obvious, given parents/guardians have legal responsibility for their children wellbeing.

Ask 10 people on the street what they think about that - 8 answers will be "this is fucked up". So that's where the envelope of sanity was breached.

Trans athletes would be entirely up to the sports organization. Otherwise, you are the one sticking your nose in their business. I do recall you have something to say about doing those things.

Schools can, and should respect the privacy rights of kids. Once again, you seem to want to forcefully stick your nose in other people's business. Not only that, you're demanding the government do the same.

You're contradicting yourself, and it's pretty blatant.

[Ivanstone]

• In case of athletes, you have a UN report has hundreds of cases of female athletes losing to trans men in various competitions.
• In case of men who identify as women, you have cases where such male inmates sexually harassed or raped female inmates in prison.
• And the final is obvious, given parents/guardians have legal responsibility for their children wellbeing.

Citation plz.
Citation plz.
Citation plz. Also some parents are shitty and will not responsibly care for their child’s gender.

Why can’t you be tolerant like the IDF? They like trans people, you should too.

[Kathandira]

i don't see any difference between accepting a person for being trans as accepting a person for being jewish or being from south korea or a weeb or super into country music - there are some expressions of self i find relatable and some i find annoying, and i may personally self exclude in my own life which of those types i surround myself with, but i don't give a single fuck what i bump into out in the world or that they exist.

I echo this. This is the way. Live and let live.

[Endus]

Okay sure, let me give you some examples of things 80%+ of the population of US would agree on.

I could not care less about how popular bigotry might be, I care whether it is bigotry or not.

I'm editing the next slightly, just to go point-by-point and bring your justification up to each claim you made, just to make it easier to handle;

Trans athletes should not compete in women divisions.

• In case of athletes, you have a UN report has hundreds of cases of female athletes losing to trans men in various competitions.

1> I'm assuming you meant "trans women", since trans women are women which is why they compete against other women.
2> There's literally zero evidence of any meaningful advantage in sporting events for transgender women.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-righ...letes-debunked
https://cces.ca/transgender-women-at...entific-review

Plenty of other sources confirming that conclusion if you bother to look.

There's been plenty of major specific claims of unfairness by girls who lost to a trans athlete they beat in prior competitions, or who placed fourth overall losing to three other cis girls (knocking the complainant to 5th place); this is not an argument that's ever had merit, it exists solely to claim trans girls and women aren't girls/women but something "other" (and also an excuse to abuse those cis girls and women by forcing them to "prove" their femininity in degrading ways, which shouldn't be overlooked as a motivator).

Men who identify as women should not go to women jail.

• In case of men who identify as women, you have cases where such male inmates sexually harassed or raped female inmates in prison.

1> Again, you're being openly transphobic by calling trans women "male". Demonstrates that you're not approaching this from a clear and objective angle, but one driven by open bigotry.
2> Cis male inmates rape and sexually harass cis male inmates in male prisons. Cis female inmates sexually harass and rape cis female inmates in female prisons. That the behaviour extends to trans inmates isn't a significant marker of anything. Not to mention the likelihood of guards abusing inmates, for that matter. Prisons have a sexual violence problem in general. That's not a trans identity issue. You think those trans women won't be raped and sexually attacked in a men's prison?

Schools should not hide children gender identity from parents.

• And the final is obvious, given parents/guardians have legal responsibility for their children wellbeing.

In nearly 100% of cases where a child does not want a parent or legal guardian to know about their shifting gender identity, it's out of fear of reprisal or abandonment by that parent. If your kid doesn't want you to know that they're transgender, it's because they don't feel safe telling you that, and that means you're the problem, and the schools should be protecting those students from any potential abuse. Your kids aren't your property. And if your kid isn't comfortable telling you they're trans, or gay, or whatever, you're failing to be "responsible for your children's wellbeing".

Schools have no authority to approve gender-affirming medical care, literally all we're talking about is the school being aware of the child's desires and treating them accordingly. The only thing a parent should feel on finding out their kid "came out" to their teachers at school before their parents is shame that their child doesn't feel safe with them. If you're feeling anger, whether it's about the school being their first pick or the child's identification, you're expressing bigotry. And that's why your kid didn't fuckin' tell you. Because you aren't safe.

Ask 10 people on the street what they think about that - 8 answers will be "this is fucked up". So that's where the envelope of sanity was breached.

Nope. You're both making that shit up, and you're stating that what's "sane" is open and abusive levels of transphobic bigotry. That's not "sanity", and it belies your earlier claims of supporting trans rights. You don't. You've just openly stated that doing so would be, in your own words, "insane".

[Edge-]

Citation plz.
Citation plz.
Citation plz. Also some parents are shitty and will not responsibly care for their child’s gender.

Why can’t you be tolerant like the IDF? They like trans people, you should too.

I'm not looking to derail this thread with further discussion given that he's still playing games and not being plain about what he means (though he's much closer, this time), but it is pretty unsurprising to see a fair number of bogus (or pretty ridiculous, the fucking UN? rofl) claims without a single link to support any.

[NED funded]

Conservatives are so fucking slimy on this. The Supreme Court is hearing arguments that the state can deny healthcare to trans people as is. While Kansas might be fighting to ban trans healthcare for minors (controversial as is) they are pretty open about the fact that their arguments would work just as well for adults. I want to be clear here.

The GOP is making the case that adults dont have the freedom to make healthcare decisions because they are trans.

This is an attack on the basics freedom and children are being used to launder the talking points. Conservatives complains abt trans athletes is purely a distraction from this point.

- - - Updated - - -

Citation plz.
Citation plz.
Citation plz. Also some parents are shitty and will not responsibly care for their child’s gender.

Why can’t you be tolerant like the IDF? They like trans people, you should too.

https://nypost.com/2024/10/23/world-...losive-report/

The UN did a report on it. I cant find the exact report right now but it has. Regardless everything he has said is a distraction from the main point. What is being discussed right now are basic rights to bodily autonomy

[Edge-]

https://nypost.com/2024/10/23/world-...losive-report/

The UN did a report on it. I cant find the exact report right now but it has. Regardless everything he has said is a distraction from the main point. What is being discussed right now are basic rights to bodily autonomy

It should be noted that the report itself is not that great - https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/g...f/n2424994.pdf

The citation for the eye-popping "ALMOST 900 MEDALS" is...The Women's Liberation Front (page 5, citation 29)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%...beration_Front

The Women's Liberation Front (WoLF) is an American self-described radical feminist advocacy organization that opposes transgender rights and related legislation.

And given that they don't actually provide the data that the TERF group submitted I'm perfectly happy summarily ignoring that claim.