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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I phrased it wrong. What i meant with "off-tanking segments" were bosses where you didn't need another tank, so, instead of swapping in for a dps or having a useless spec for a specific boss, he could be useful as a dps.

    Having a prot warrior replace shield block with shield charge isn't a "gladiator style dps spec with sword and board". It was just a prot with higher dps modifier.
    It played fairly different from regular protection you pretty clearly didn't play it.

  2. #22
    Of course you liked it. It was OP.

    It was removed cause it was impossible to balance. The spec is actually prot. Gladiator was a talent.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It played fairly different from regular protection you pretty clearly didn't play it.
    Quick example of a Gladiator Stance, top parse on Butcher.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...casts&source=3

    It sure plays "fairly different" (not). Use Shield Charge (which replaced Shield Block). Sigh....

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Of course you liked it. It was OP.

    It was removed cause it was impossible to balance. The spec is actually prot. Gladiator was a talent.
    It was easy to balance. I wish people wouldn't base their entire opinions on the spec on complete misunderstandings.

    1. It optimised gear around DPS stats, aside from for example bonus armor rings and the shield.
    2. It was locked out of Defensive Stance once combat began.
    3. It did not have Shield Block
    4. Shield Slam did not dispel magic effects when in Glad stance.
    5. The survival was comparable with that of a Fury/Arms Warrior wearing a Shield, it was not a full Prot Warrior doing dps.

    They chose not to do anything with it. Even pre-nerf it was not used for Highmaul progression because it had no burst dps, no execute dps, no rallying cry, no die by the sword. People asked for Rallying cry to be added to give it some usability as a progression spec, people asked that if the dps was going to be nerfed it could have Execute buffed in order to make it useful for progression.. None of that happened.

    Execute remained a button not worth pressing, rallying cry did not get added despite that it was a vital raid cooldown. All the end bosses in WOD had a heavy emphasis on valuing Execute dps. And the only reason Gladiator ever did more dps than Arms/Fury was due to both those specs being massively undertuned at launch, to the extent that both of them were comfortably the worst dps specs in the game on single target.

    It got slightly buffed throughout WOD, it was still worse than Arms on Cleave, worse than Fury on AOE, had no Execute dps, had no burst on demand dps. The one thing it had was "decent" cleave and good sustained dps over long fights. I would know, I had multiple rank 1 parses playing the spec. The reason it had none of those things is because Blizzard decided to to abandon the spec immediately, similar to how they massively nerfed Survival Hunter and Demonology Warlocks mysteriously before announcing Melee Hunters and Demon Hunters for Legion.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2022-09-24 at 03:03 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Quick example of a Gladiator Stance, top parse on Butcher.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...casts&source=3

    It sure plays "fairly different" (not). Use Shield Charge (which replaced Shield Block). Sigh....
    Now look up what shield charge actually did and you might figure out why it played differently.

  6. #26
    The gameplay loop of Gladiator was different to Prot though yes because it was all based around weaving and maximising Shield Charge windows.

    You'd

    1. Charge
    2. Shield Charge + Bloodbath (talent) + Shield Slam (all in 1 Shield Charge macro to remove delay), also using the 2nd Shield Charge here.
    3. Unrelenting Strikes (talent) stacked to 6 and then made Heroic Strike free for a duration, you'd learn to track this and you had some wiggle room to plan when you'd hit 6.
    4. Shield Slam/Revenge on CD inbetween Devastates, you could just do this mindlessly and get good results, or weave as needed for US to hit 6 stacks when desired (aka during shield charge/bloodbath/trinket procs).
    5. Spam Heroic Strike - Subject to how much rage you had coming in and how many US stacks you had.
    6. When Bloodbath had 30s remaining on the CD you'd hold your next 2 shield charges, the 2nd one would come off cooldown the same time as Bloodbath, so you'd have 2 Shield charges up for Bloodbath again.

    You'd repeat that 1min rotation. Spec was extremely busy/spammy because it had no empty GCD's and also had the off GCD Heroic Strike being spammed for large portions of the fight. Thunder Clap/Bladestorm and continue rotation (Heroic Strike cleaved) on AOE.

    Edit : If it wasn't clear, it was a complete blast to play, one of the most enjoyable specs in the game's history. It was just simply unattractive for raiding because it brought nothing to the table other than mediocre sustained damage, purely because Blizzard left it that way.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2022-09-24 at 03:30 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It was easy to balance. I wish people wouldn't base their entire opinions on the spec on complete misunderstandings.

    1. It optimised gear around DPS stats, aside from for example bonus armor rings and the shield.
    2. It was locked out of Defensive Stance once combat began.
    3. It did not have Shield Block
    4. Shield Slam did not dispel magic effects when in Glad stance.
    5. The survival was comparable with that of a Fury/Arms Warrior wearing a Shield, it was not a full Prot Warrior doing dps.

    They chose not to do anything with it. Even pre-nerf it was not used for Highmaul progression because it had no burst dps, no execute dps, no rallying cry, no die by the sword. People asked for Rallying cry to be added to give it some usability as a progression spec, people asked that if the dps was going to be nerfed it could have Execute buffed in order to make it useful for progression.. None of that happened.

    Execute remained a button not worth pressing, rallying cry did not get added despite that it was a vital raid cooldown. All the end bosses in WOD had a heavy emphasis on valuing Execute dps. And the only reason Gladiator ever did more dps than Arms/Fury was due to both those specs being massively undertuned at launch, to the extent that both of them were comfortably the worst dps specs in the game on single target.

    It got slightly buffed throughout WOD, it was still worse than Arms on Cleave, worse than Fury on AOE, had no Execute dps, had no burst on demand dps. The one thing it had was "decent" cleave and good sustained dps over long fights. I would know, I had multiple rank 1 parses playing the spec. The reason it had none of those things is because Blizzard decided to to abandon the spec immediately, similar to how they massively nerfed Survival Hunter and Demonology Warlocks mysteriously before announcing Melee Hunters and Demon Hunters for Legion.
    Sure, that is your opinion, but it's not what the devs said and it WAS OP when it was live. It was a DPS with a tank's survivability.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Sure, that is your opinion, but it's not what the devs said and it WAS OP when it was live. It was a DPS with a tank's survivability.
    No it was not, stop talking nonsense. It's not my opinion, it's a fact. That you think Gladiator had the survivability of a tank shows you haven't got a single clue what you're talking about and probably never played the spec in your life. By the way, please provide sources for the devs calling it "OP" during WOD.



    Here is an example of "OP" Gladiator spec by the way. This was the rank 1 parse at the time, and I was doing it in an alt run... Such an "OP" spec amiright? And oh wait this was after multiple buffs made to Gladiator during the expansion? Despite them being "OP"?

    Yes it was. But why would they buff an "OP" spec?

    Because it was never overpowered, it was useless for anything other than casual raiding from day one, and remained that way.



    Such an OP spec that the world first guilds took a Fury Warrior for Imperator, instead of a "Pre-nerf" Gladiator, despite Fury having the worst single target dps in the game at that point. Why? Because burst AOE and Execute damage matters more than consistent high damage, because Rallying Cry is invaluable and necessary, Gladiator brought nothing.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2022-09-24 at 04:24 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    No it was not, stop talking nonsense. It's not my opinion, it's a fact. That you think Gladiator had the survivability of a tank shows you haven't got a single clue what you're talking about and probably never played the spec in your life.
    The fact that people don't know the difference between opinion and fact is amusing as ever.

    Sure buddy, sure.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    The fact that people don't know the difference between opinion and fact is amusing as ever.

    Sure buddy, sure.
    Is it a fact that Gladiator optimised around dps? Yes it is
    Is it a fact that Gladiator could not use defensive stance or shield block for the massive survival provided.. Yes that's a fact, they could not.
    Is it a fact that Arms/Fury could use defensive stance for the damage reduction provided (25%). Yes that's a fact, they could.
    Is it a fact that Shield Slam was nerfed in Gladiator stance to not dispel. Yes that is a fact.
    Is it a fact that Gladiator did not have DBTS so therefor could not immune Ogron Twins WW ability to continue dpsing.. Yes it's a fact, a Gladiator would die.
    Is it a fact that Gladiator did not bring Rallying Cry, a vital raid cooldown? Yes that is a fact.
    Is it a fact that Gladiator lacked any form of burst dps or execute dps? Yes that is a fact.
    Is it a fact that despite claims of being "overpowered" - Gladiator was not used on any major progression in the entire expansion? Yes it is a fact.
    Is it a fact that despite claims of being "overpowered" - Gladiator was buffed multiple times during the WOD expansion? Yes it is a fact.

    Where are the opinions dude? What have I said that can be disclaimed? You don't know because you don't know anything about the spec do you? You probably didn't play WOD while this was active did you? And probably didn't play a Warrior? I figured as much.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2022-09-24 at 04:47 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    The fact that people don't know the difference between opinion and fact is amusing as ever.

    Sure buddy, sure.
    It's not an opinion it's a fact. Gladiator had very few oh shit buttons no raid utility and was heavily lacking in execute which was extremely important. It was not overpowered it was fun but heavily lacking in damage and had a very high apm playstyle that played differently from prot. Stop trying to talk about things you have no clue about.

  12. #32
    Both Xath and bigbazz are right. I been there too.
    Created on the 25th April 2005.
    Protection Warrior since the old days of UBRS.

    P.S. Make a part of your warrior community happy and bring Gladiator Stance back...

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Sure, that is your opinion, but it's not what the devs said and it WAS OP when it was live. It was a DPS with a tank's survivability.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...adiator-Stance

    Fistweaving (and Gladiator Stance) will not be joining us in Legion.

    We love the fantasy that each of those “subspecs” promise, but leaving them as subspecs has proven to be problematic, making us unable to properly deliver on their fantasy. Trying to support two different playstyles within one spec restricts how much we can focus and bring out the strengths of either of them. We still love both of their concepts, however, and will look for opportunities to bring them back in the future.
    Yeah the devs said they loved it but couldn't properly deliver with it.

    And as others have said, Gladiator didn't have a tank's survivability, considering it lost shield block and the juicy 25% damage reduction that defensive stance had.

    Also yes, blizz did call it a subspec, not 'just a talent' or 'talent to give a tank something to do on the 0 fights in wod that didn't have tank swaps'

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    No it was not, stop talking nonsense. It's not my opinion, it's a fact. That you think Gladiator had the survivability of a tank shows you haven't got a single clue what you're talking about and probably never played the spec in your life. By the way, please provide sources for the devs calling it "OP" during WOD.


    Here is an example of "OP" Gladiator spec by the way. This was the rank 1 parse at the time, and I was doing it in an alt run... Such an "OP" spec amiright? And oh wait this was after multiple buffs made to Gladiator during the expansion? Despite them being "OP"?

    Yes it was. But why would they buff an "OP" spec?

    Because it was never overpowered, it was useless for anything other than casual raiding from day one, and remained that way.



    Such an OP spec that the world first guilds took a Fury Warrior for Imperator, instead of a "Pre-nerf" Gladiator, despite Fury having the worst single target dps in the game at that point. Why? Because burst AOE and Execute damage matters more than consistent high damage, because Rallying Cry is invaluable and necessary, Gladiator brought nothing.
    Yeah.. that was after the nerf dude. Stop trying to gaslight. They couldn't balance it. They themselves said it. It was OP at the start and then they nerfed it to a bad state. It is what it is.
    If you want gladiator, it has to be a new warrior spec. It's not the gladiator that is affected, it's prot spec as well. It cannot be balanced. Get over it and adjust your requests.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2022-09-25 at 09:02 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Yeah.. that was after the nerf dude. Stop trying to gaslight. They couldn't balance it. They themselves said it. It was OP and the start and then they nerfed it to a bad state. It is what it is.
    That's funny, the video of the world first Imperator kill was on December 18th, while patch that nerfed gladstance was on January 12th the following year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SuW_whFQaY

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...es-february-17

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    That's funny, the video of the world first Imperator kill was on December 18th, while patch that nerfed gladstance was on January 12th the following year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SuW_whFQaY

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...es-february-17
    You can have the opinions you want. I am just relaying what they said. Present solutions to the problem they have posed and deliver it to them. I presented a solution. You just want to say they are wrong. Well, go tell them that then.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2022-09-25 at 09:07 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    You can have the opinions you want. I am just relaying what they said. Present solutions to the problem they have posed and deliver it to them. I presented a solution. You just want to say they are wrong. Well, go tell them that then.
    Except you didn't? You said that they said but didn't even link to a blue post or a twitter post or anything. This would be a case of "he said, she said" except your opposition posted things to back their argument up.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I phrased it wrong. What i meant with "off-tanking segments" were bosses where you didn't need another tank, so, instead of swapping in for a dps or having a useless spec for a specific boss, he could be useful as a dps.

    Having a prot warrior replace shield block with shield charge isn't a "gladiator style dps spec with sword and board". It was just a prot with higher dps modifier.
    So, having played a gladiator warrior, this is wrong. The gear stats were completely different. Going from defense stance to gladiator stance without changing gear or trinkets wouldn't have yielded a viable dps. It would have still been a "have the warrior tank swap to a real dps spec or sit out for another dps all together" type of deal. They couldn't even survive any better then actual dps could if the mob got on them.

    The biggest issue with gladiators was trying to balance them to be decent enough dps while not making prot warriors op compared to every other tank or underwhelming. The solution came from scaling. Gladiator warriors didn't scale well enough to be competitive dps. I had to stop being a gladiator warrior after Highmaul because it couldn't pump out the numbers.

    I wish they would bring gladiator back as its own spec. It was fun and really didn't have any downtime that some other dps get in their rotations.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Yeah.. that was after the nerf dude. It is what it is.
    If you want gladiator, it has to be a new warrior spec. It's not the gladiator that is affected, it's prot spec as well. It cannot be balanced. Get over it and adjust your requests.
    It was nerfed during Highmaul while Arms/Fury were buffed. Then Gladiator had several buffs throughout WOD so what you're saying is moot, it was never going to remain strong because it didn't scale, had no burst, no execute, no utility. Quite literally the only thing it brought pre-nerf was good sustained single target dps. Not "best dps in the game" single target dps, not desirable dps to burst prio targets or for execute phases, just steady and stable consistent dps.

    That means the actual value of the dps for progression was a lot less than another class doing the same (or less) dps with more emphases on burst, because burst dps is king. It also meant that the faster the boss kills got the further behind Gladiator would fall because it needed a longer fight to catch up to the classes with burst dps.

    You have to understand the fundamentals of how raid dps is valued to see that Gladiator was bad from day one, even when it was at least capable of topping the meters on some fights.



    This was really the only fight where Gladiator did well, because it was a long fight with a lot of consistent sustained cleave. But you'd still not take it for progression, certainly not for Mythic, because again it brought nothing and had no Execute dps. An Arms Warrior was better in every way.

    .Stop trying to gaslight. They couldn't balance it . They themselves said it. It was OP at the start and then they nerfed it to a bad state
    Where did they say it was OP? Who said it, when was it said? You've not provided any source because it's bullshit. And mate, if you had asked me in 2015 how to balance Gladiator without affecting Prot I would have had a 4 page document for you ready to go full of ideas of how to easily balance the spec.

    Archi too, who used to post here regularly back then would have probably balanced the spec in an evening. Gladiator stance was used specifically to grant bonuses to the spec without affecting Prot, Shield Charge was also an ability that Prot did not have and could have been balanced separately.

    This idea that they could not balance Gladiator is laughable, I had a million ideas how to do it in 2015 and I could probably study it for a couple days now to brush up on my memory and fix it today. It's not a hard problem. They could have started with simply having Last Stand swap to Rallying Cry within Gladiator Stance and given Execute a damage bonus to make it viable while in Gladiator stance... Literally just those 2 would have made it a usable spec.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2022-09-26 at 03:07 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  20. #40
    It should be a 4th spec.
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