Upcoming talent system vs current vs old?

[Rad1um]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

[Schmilblick]

Nostalgia.

[Iain]

What made the old system more interesting was the way a player could chose between specialism and generalism. It wasn't well balanced and most options didn't make sense, but the talent tree was something you committed to and that defined you as a player.

There were cookie cutter builds, certainly, but there were more of them, and the non cookie-cutter builds still had validity even if they weren't optimal.

The MoP talents are quite lame in comparison. You continuously get three highly similar choices. You don't have to commit to a path.

It seems that Dragonflight is a mix of both. You get the freedom of classic talents, but you can have all three specialisations and you don't have to distribute your precious talent points amongst all three of them.

So yeah I still think the old talent trees are superior. They needed more refinement.

[Lochton]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

Dunno about the rest. The most excitement I have from it are profiles for multiple talent build-ups, the rest is just cookie cutters.

[LionSinMaikeru]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

This is why I'm excited. I miss the old system, was *really* frustrated when it got replaced with the current one, and hope this new version is even 50% of what it used to be.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

People are going to do what they want to do. People today still use cookie cutter talents. The system change didn't stop that from happening. But what DID happen is that the people who didn't use cookie cutter talents got screwed over by the new system. No longer could you have the freedom to customize your character to your heart's content because you were now FORCED to get all passives and abilities for a specific specialization while being locked out of stuff for other specializations. And your dozens of options got reduced to 18. -_-

Don't get me wrong: If people want to use cookie-cutter talents, that's fine. But people should also have the freedom to customize their character as they like.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

The hype is that if I want to make a specialized build for my own enjoyment I can again. What is "cookie cutter" only matters for endgame raid progression. It does not matter for the other 95% of the game. With the old system, I could come up with 5-6 different builds for different things I wanted to do. Cookie cutter for raiding progression, one build for questing, one build for leveling, one for gathering (because yes, talents you'd take while gathering are different than ones for other things), one for PvP, etc.

I'm glad we now finally get control of our characters again. I'm tired of Blizzard telling me how I should want to play instead of giving me the tools to play as I want. If I want to be a Holy Paladin that focuses on ranged spell DPS I should be able to do that. If I want to be a Warrior that DPSes but keeps a shield for some extra defense, I should be able to do that. If I want to be a Warrior that goes dual daggers that should be a thing I can build around.

More options is the the hype and more options should always be celebrated, IMO.

[Utrrabbit]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

Everyone still uses cookie cutter builds. Thats not the point. The point of the new talent tree is the following.

1. It allows classes to spec more fluid.

For example you cal spec holy/prot or resto/enh.

2. It just feels good while lvling to get a point and put ot to use.

[jeezusisacasual]

The only choice will be right or wrong, its really that simple. The days of just mindlessly experimenting are largely over and have even been stated by Ian at points when they expected more players to pick the covenant they liked vs whats optimal. Blizzard would have to somehow kill meta gaming to get this direction to change which is all but impossible given that they took 20 years to update the UI.

People act as if others are not excluded from content at a decent level for not being apart of the meta and i want an easier time so when i put together groups i go with what makes the game easier not harder.

[elderu]

1. It allows classes to spec more fluid.
For example you cal spec holy/prot or resto/enh.

Huh? I haven't seen this said anywhere but here.

Is it not two trees only? one "Shaman" or "Paladin" tree which may/will include a few Other-Spec abilities/passives, and one for your Current Spec. So let's say the options are:

Enh/Shaman
Resto/Shaman
Ele/Shaman

Prot/Paladin
Ret/Paladin
Holy/Paladin

or viceversa, ie 'Paladin/Holy, Shaman/Enh' etc.

No?

My understanding is we will not be able to put points into two separate Spec trees at a time, like a "11 points in Enh, 15 in Ele" or something.
Just a mix of Class/SingleSpec trees.

[Stricks]

Nostalgia.

It looks quite different to me. You can pick spells at different times during your leveling experience, for example.

- - - Updated - - -

Huh? I haven't seen this said anywhere but here.

Is it not two trees only? one "Shaman" or "Paladin" tree which may/will include a few Other-Spec abilities/passives, and one for your Current Spec. So let's say the options are:

Enh/Shaman
Resto/Shaman
Ele/Shaman

Prot/Paladin
Ret/Paladin
Holy/Paladin

or viceversa, ie 'Paladin/Holy, Shaman/Enh' etc.

No?

My understanding is we will not be able to put points into two separate Spec trees at a time, like a "11 points in Enh, 15 in Ele" or something.
Just a mix of Class/SingleSpec trees.

He may be referring to the fact that [I think it was] Ion that used the term "hybrid classes". How far they go with that, it's too early to tell.

[Alkizon]

elderu
Enh/Shaman
Resto/Shaman
Ele/Shaman

Prot/Paladin
Ret/Paladin
Holy/Paladin

or viceversa, ie 'Paladin/Holy, Shaman/Enh' etc.

No?

Still is.

Problem is that those talents aren't talents at all, when they give abilities and mechanics (but shouldn't), problem is that "general tree" is the only thing that should be and it should include "specialization" tree inside, problem is the fact that specialization shouldn't mean right away specific role chosen by devs, player is the one who sets beat for combinations, which means that tree should contain not key ones, but making them more convenient, stronger, more specific from general set of those of the "whole class", preferred by one or another player. What follows from this? Tree, as such, isn't much needed to fulfill such requirements, only list of these same modifications with ranks - so, you can have a little bit of everything, or choose specific ones and pump them all the way... But if we return to tree, then there are certain dependencies in following certain modifications: first there are general ones, perhaps not even tied to a class, simply strengthening character as is, then tree begins to branch out to modify more specific abilities that form specialization, and at the end there are key ones. If you look at what they showed, then for both trees everything is in random order + "perk-abilities" remain tied to specific specialization and not just specialization, but even roles, which they didn't hesitate to mention. At the same time - PvP perks remain, which should not exist at all, for this there are PvP-sets, as well as for more complex PvE content - PvE-sets, and all this requires additional separate PvP and PvE secondary characteristics, so that progress in one direction doesn't hindered progress in other one.

Everything works very simply, when you remain faithful to consistent hierarchy of RPG customization... but it doesn’t exist in current system, they still have utter nonsense going on, and what they have already shown leaves no hope that somewhere in this chaos will happen kind of enlightenment.

Everything remains essentially the same as it was before, the only thing is that you will have to "deprive yourself" of abilities of your own choice. Note: not supplement/modify existing class, no, but cut off what you should have by default. Did you catch the difference? General tree looks like guest entrance to another (almost direct quote -) "role" (not even specializations, no one even remembers those full-fledged ones; earlier, as far as I understand, similarly thing was provided by one of groups of perks for druids, but having made choice in favor of “cat”, you immediately doom yourself to the fact that you'll have nothing from “bear”, nothing at all, except to scratch post with your @ss, and even that is futile, since characteristics (omg) for some reason are already tied to your specific role in view of fact that items "scale" to it (but shouldn't), but it's they who should "strengthen you role aspect for specific encounter": put on strength and avoidance - bear abilities work better; agility and attack power with accuracy - better as cat and so on)... but this still isn't here, right? Everything still revolves around PvE encounters and your "role-specialization" (of which there are conditionally only 4 for the whole game), nothing has changed in this sense, and since it hasn't changed, system still is the same as it was before.

This whole heresy began with Cata and with incoherent introduction of such characteristic as mastery into the game. MoP stands apart from all ugliness that has been going on recently only because there was more correct set of characteristics/itemization (no items-characteristics scaling, secondary characteristics that separate as hit+exp+sp/pvp-res&str, PvP+PvE-sets) and the fact that perks were cross-specialized (mostly same perks for all specializations of same class, although even then there was already a certain bias) - so, not because "class system" was better, just itemization one that was.

ps. <ironically> New system is more like Legion one (which have my personally "hate"), the only thing, that your "artifact tree" now in "role-specialization" area (not tied to items/borrowed powers), and... that's it

[arkanon]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

You are not wrong, but the biggest change will be the ability to change specs easily. The cookie cutter builds were often not ACTUALLY the best for a given encounter, given content type, but rather a 'raid' one, a 'pvp' one, and maybe a aoe/st one, but for MOST people, they were not swapping around all the time. Duel Spec certainly helped with that, but i would like to think specs can be more situational now, even if they share the same core talents.

Overall, yes, its nostalgia driving people to talk about "obscure hybrid specs" that were either A) absolute shit at everything or B)actually the cookie cutter build, such as warlock.

[potis]

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

Copium.

Illusion of choice gives less ...lets call them dedicated towards the game players a sense of uniqueness.

They will suck either way, whats the difference between playing the class at 10% of its capabilities and playing it at 9%.

Now for the secondary part, if they return minus past things as talents (like artifact points that affected cleave as example) , the quick switching makes things more interesting but still an illusion of choice in the end.

[WowIsDead64]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

Problem is - true RP talent system implies specialization. Also character progression, but it's problematic to do it, when leveling is no longer considered to be part of MMO's content. When such progression is implemented in endgame - devs usually make it way too gated to be enjoyable. Plus it causes many problems, such as switching between characters and specs. Yeah, it's famous borrowed power problem. It was good idea in theory, Blizzard tried to do it, but failed.

Initial idea - each player has his own playstyle, so he wants to get rig of his weaknesses, while boosting his strengths. But today's talents are more situational, i.e. players trie to get some very short term advantage via playing with their talents. This devalues talent system, because if talents can be changed at any moment, then next step would be - just change them automatically according to current situation. I.e. turn them into stances or something like that.

Classic talents trees allowed class-wide specialization. It was killed, when specializations were fully separated from each other, effectively turning specs into sub-classes and talents into perks. Whole idea behind perks - to change number of buttons, player wants to press. It was done in order to avoid class-wide button bloat and problems with "If I have button - I want to press it" mentality. At some point Blizzard realized, that classes like Mages, Paladins and Hunter were popular exactly due to 3-button playstyle.

Overall all current talents are about "passive X - passive Y - active button" or something like "passive - ST active - AOE active". You pick your desired number of buttons and just fill your action bars with extra active buttons. You're hardcore PVE player and want to control everything? Pick max number of active buttons. You're 3-button style casual or PVP player, who has extra CC buttons to press? Pick all passives.

Whole reasoning behind killing classic talent trees - was cookie-cutter builds. But there is problem. Cookie-cutter builds were caused by lack of interesting active talents. It was most likely caused by tech limitations. But in recent xpacks we saw lots of new interesting active talents! So this argument was no longer valid, while some players still were parroting it! So now it's time to fix it.

As I understand, new system will have both class-wide talents and spec-specific talents and also will be extendable. So no, it's not 100% old class-wide talent tree, where there were no borders between specs and players were able to create full hybrids. There are still some limitation. So, it's hard to judge now, when we don't know, what actually talents such trees will have.

Being able to save builds - is nothing new, because addons had always allowed it in the past. It's just another case of adding addon functionality to base game.

[LordKharon]

2 things:

1.) Being able to save different "loadouts" and switch WITHOUT any cost (while in a safe area).

2.) Hopefully more breadth/range to spec more into extremes... like full glasscannon on one end and below average dps but very durable/selfsustaining on the other end.
Or full active "as may buttons as fast as possible" and the opposite "very passive style" (few buttons/long cooldows).

[Dakara]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

Personally speaking, yes, I mostly used the Cookie cutter spec for raiding.

Outside of raiding however, shenanigans were had with some pretty fun Hybrid specs. Each persons mileage would vary based on their class and what sort of experimenting they did, but that’s the kinda the point.

If someone wants to spend all their time in their Icy Veins raiding guide spec then so be it, but let the rest of us have our fun. Especially in modern WOW where swapping specs doesn’t come with a hefty gold cost and there’s plenty of solo (including old raids) content to play around in.

[micwini]

I dont understand what the excitement behind the new upcoming talent system which echoes the talent system we used to use in the past.

Maybe my memory is trash but I recall the majority using cookie cutter talent builds from (insert website) and since there was always a set of talents that people mathed out to determine is ideal, we ended up choosing those talents... Because it just made sense.

Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

People use cookie cutter builds with the current talents too. The new system is just giving more choice/freedom/variation.

[Spazzix]

...Now this is fine, but besides more options, what exactly is the hype behind this if Meta is still gonna be Meta?

There will never NOT be a meta. So if the only way to be excited is to get a system with no meta, then we never get to be excited again.
Past that, you pretty much answered your own question: "more options"
Options to throw out more heals"
Options to dispel some nasty debuff (kind of like it's cool to have a lock with an imp on double-dispel mechanics in dungeons e.g. devos in SoA and lich in ToP)
Options to chuck some spells but also feel like there's a reason to do some melee.
Options to be the badass who locks down an entire pack
Options to make a certain class love you because you bring some kind of buff
Options to make tanks love you because you slow the crap out of stuff so they can kite

Options to make you feel like YOU get to decide how to be valuable instead of Blizzard deciding whether or not you are.

[WowIsDead64]

Personally speaking, yes, I mostly used the Cookie cutter spec for raiding.

Outside of raiding however, shenanigans were had with some pretty fun Hybrid specs. Each persons mileage would vary based on their class and what sort of experimenting they did, but that’s the kinda the point.

If someone wants to spend all their time in their Icy Veins raiding guide spec then so be it, but let the rest of us have our fun. Especially in modern WOW where swapping specs doesn’t come with a hefty gold cost and there’s plenty of solo (including old raids) content to play around in.

Problem with cookie-cutter builds - is that passive talents weren't intuitive. I.e. player, who wasn't doing any simming, wasn't able to say, which talent was better for him. That's why majority of casual players, including me, were simply using cookie-cutter builds. It was about "If I don't understand this thing, at least I'll make sure, that I have max dps via copy-pasting one from guide". But again. Problem with passive talents was caused by lack of interesting active talents. We have many of them now, enough to build big interesting talent trees, so it's no longer valid argument.

- - - Updated - - -

People use cookie cutter builds with the current talents too. The new system is just giving more choice/freedom/variation.

At least I understand difference between talents now. For example I understand, that if I like ability X more, that ability Y, then it's better for me to pick talent Z, that buffs ability X. Or if I need survivability for outdoor content, then I need to pick talent W, that buffs it.

[Spazzix]

Problem with cookie-cutter builds - is that passive talents weren't intuitive. I.e. player, who wasn't doing any simming, wasn't able to say, which talent was better for him. That's why majority of casual players, including me, were simply using cookie-cutter builds. It was about "If I don't understand this thing, at least I'll make sure, that I have max dps via copy-pasting one from guide". But again. Problem with passive talents was caused by lack of interesting active talents. We have many of them now, enough to build big interesting talent trees, so it's no longer valid argument.

- - - Updated - - -


At least I understand difference between talents now. For example I understand, that if I like ability X more, that ability Y, then it's better for me to pick talent Z, that buffs ability X. Or if I need survivability for outdoor content, then I need to pick talent W, that buffs it.

I do a bunch of M+. Have a r1 title.
I don't sim anything. I swap my talents and try it out. And I don't mean I try it out while analyzing all my logs and plugging crap into spreadsheets. I mean I have a meter going and when the dungeon is finished, I think about how the build felt and then check to see that my numbers were reasonable.
Problem with the current system is that most specs only have one or two talents that they can even play around with (and the rest are either very low impact or incredibly unbalanced). The new system should offer quite a bit more to play around with. And because the trees are much bigger, presumably there will be less power coming from each point. Meaning more room to play around with things without completely nuking your ability to actually provide the throughput necessary for your content.

[ClassicPeon]

Copium.

Illusion of choice gives less ...lets call them dedicated towards the game players a sense of uniqueness.

They will suck either way, whats the difference between playing the class at 10% of its capabilities and playing it at 9%.

Now for the secondary part, if they return minus past things as talents (like artifact points that affected cleave as example) , the quick switching makes things more interesting but still an illusion of choice in the end.

For the powergamer there is likely going to be 1-2 best builds. But for other things you can start experimenting. Back in the days we had different builds for boosting, solo questing, pvp and so forth.

There is no illusion of choice as the herd so often likes to use. There is actual choice - and then people who simply follow the leader. In most situations going by what the highest dps on warcraftlogs goes by isnt going to be the best for you.

Catering more towards the rpg aspect and less towards the herd is what wow needs.