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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You really can't talk about "Snappy comebacks" when your entire initial post was a straight up strawman.

    Not only did you literally misinterpret what I said intentionally, but you tried to push some weird idea that "making new positions and hiring new people" as a "buzzword".

    And on top of that, now you're trying to push the idea that hiring diversity means "less qualified". So why would I engage in that when it's clearly loaded with bias to begin with?



    Oh sure, pointing out how those scummy companies needed to change drastically and how this is a good thing is "simping".

    So why aren't you going after the people saying Blizzard should be allowed to continue said scummy behavior instead?
    Because you are naive enough to think Blizzard has changed drastically. The company hasn't made a good product since Overwatch (I'm not a fan but it was huge). WoW is only still *ok* because it's WoW and still running on the same legacy engines and systems since 2004. But I guess they are better to work for now , I guess? That's what we are being told? But don't listen to me, honestly... I hate new games and don't think Blizzard will make a great game again because the AAA game industry is dead apart from FromSoft and maybe BD5 (which I respect). I really don't like modern video games. And making a company bigger and more diverse isn't gonna make Blizzard a better video game company. It make make it a better place to work and great for them but not for me.

    I look at Valheim as a great example of why I think small teams with less ideas getting tossed and cross managed is a good thing.

    Riot games was easier for people to regain trust... They don't have as big a legacy. Put out some card games, a shooter and a tv show boom people love you again because all you had was 1 game and it was a huge success. Compared to Blizzard where since D3 people have been let down. It's been up and down since.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    Because you are naive enough to think Blizzard has changed drastically. The company hasn't made a good product since Overwatch (I'm not a fan but it was huge). WoW is only still *ok* because it's WoW and still running on the same legacy engines and systems since 2004. But I guess they are better to work for now , I guess? That's what we are being told? But don't listen to me, honestly... I hate new games and don't think Blizzard will make a great game again because the AAA game industry is dead apart from Elden Ring. I really don't like modern video games. And making a company bigger and more diverse isn't gonna make Blizzard a better video game company. It make make it a better place to work and great for them but not for me.

    I look at Valheim as a great example of why I think small teams with less ideas getting tossed and cross managed is a good thing.

    Riot games was easier for people to regain trust... They don't have as big a legacy. Put out some card games, a shooter and a tv show boom people love you again because all you had was 1 game and it was a huge success. Compared to Blizzard where since D3 people have been let down. It's been up and down since.
    Please say where I actually pointed out that the company changed drastically?

    Because I didn't. I said they NEED to and this is a good move to do so. I get misrepresenting people makes it easier to argue them but it's pretty easy to point out.

    And you act like Blizzard made a ton of games before Overwatch, and wasn't just resting on their laurels for quite a while. Blizzard was never known for pumping out new IPs.

    And if you think that games are dead apart from Elden Ring, then you're obviously pretty burnt out to begin with. Which happens, but that doesn't mean that the issue is actually the games coming out.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Please say where I actually pointed out that the company changed drastically?

    Because I didn't. I said they NEED to and this is a good move to do so. I get misrepresenting people makes it easier to argue them but it's pretty easy to point out.

    And you act like Blizzard made a ton of games before Overwatch, and wasn't just resting on their laurels for quite a while. Blizzard was never known for pumping out new IPs.

    And if you think that games are dead apart from Elden Ring, then you're obviously pretty burnt out to begin with. Which happens, but that doesn't mean that the issue is actually the games coming out.
    Saying they needed to change implies they change. Need vs needed is a small difference. Blizzard making these posts and moves is them trying to imply they changed.

    I don't think SC2 was resting on the laurel's. It was a masterpiece and great improvement from SC1. And contrary to popular opinion, I loved D3 when it came out.

    But no, you're right didn't release many games because everything they made was great and I wouldn't have time for many anyway. Still, a lot more games (some controversial than others) compared to Riot games which really during their fall only had LoL.

    And i'm not burnt out, i'm very picky with games. If you gave me an example of a triple a game that is close or on par with some of the games I mentioned i'd be happy to hear it but
    Last edited by GratsDing45; 2022-05-06 at 03:10 AM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    WTF is a Culture Dept.?
    I think it is the department that comes up with new and hopefully better tasting yogurts.

    But seriously, it would be the department in charge of things like teaching the employees that sexual harassment is bad, and other things during orientation.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    one character is a mithrandir written based on european mythology and culture, literally becoming the white. while the other is an american comic book super hero written by an american. And the characters are completely different. who cares if hes black or white. it doesnt make or break the character like it would gandalf
    It wouldn't matter even a smidgeon for the character of gandalf if he was African American.

  6. #186
    Stood in the Fire Chilela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    And yet you had people in this very thread arguing the very thing, saying that they are.
    And they would be incorrect, for reasons I've stated.

    Except the whole idea of "Get woke go broke", which was on the other end of that idea, hasn't had a point to stand on. So it's weird to demand that they prove anything. Like, the new Star Wars trilogy gets a ton of hate from people because it had "wokeness", and yet it had the largest success of all the trilogies.
    Depends on what examples you decide to cherrypick. I could point to Ghostbusters 2016, the PPG reboot, and the Netflix Cowboy Bebop adaptation offhandedly as counterpoints. Jury's out on the Amazon LotR adaptation. The "regardless of whether or not they're actually legitimately at fault" part of that post is important, as it's ultimately difficult to tell whether or not a piece of media's "wokeness" ultimately plays any role in its success or lack thereof.

    Again, we have people in this very thread saying they didn't care if people did sexually harass others as long as the game is fine, and that they should have just reported it.

    Despite knowing that it WAS reported and nothing was done.
    "People in this very thread" does not constitute a majority of people.

    How can you mention bias, and then say that it's not unreasonable to suspect it....because of someone's own bias.
    When there's programs out there to specifically assist certain groups of people in the hiring process, then the presumption that there's a chance those specific programs were the only reason people got into their jobs of choice isn't entirely off the mark. I've had to turn down such opportunities myself specifically because I'm opposed to them on principle.

    And on top of that, we had not even a few months back one of the new leaders for Blizzard was a female, and on these very forums she got nothing but hate despite having an extensive portfolio herself. Meanwhile, no one questioned the male who was chosen.
    Disregarding the brevity of her tenure (even if it was cut short for perfectly valid reasons), the people calling "diversity hire" probably did so in large part thanks to how fresh the lawsuits were at the time. Even with her legitimate qualifications, it did have "PR move" vibes written all over it.

    Completely unrelated, but if Martinez doesn't say "The culture [of this company] is actually damn good", I'll want my money back.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    Because you are naive enough to think Blizzard has changed drastically. The company hasn't made a good product since Overwatch (I'm not a fan but it was huge). WoW is only still *ok* because it's WoW and still running on the same legacy engines and systems since 2004. But I guess they are better to work for now , I guess? That's what we are being told? But don't listen to me, honestly... I hate new games and don't think Blizzard will make a great game again because the AAA game industry is dead apart from FromSoft and maybe BD5 (which I respect). I really don't like modern video games. And making a company bigger and more diverse isn't gonna make Blizzard a better video game company. It make make it a better place to work and great for them but not for me.

    I look at Valheim as a great example of why I think small teams with less ideas getting tossed and cross managed is a good thing.

    Riot games was easier for people to regain trust... They don't have as big a legacy. Put out some card games, a shooter and a tv show boom people love you again because all you had was 1 game and it was a huge success. Compared to Blizzard where since D3 people have been let down. It's been up and down since.
    The funny thing is that you all put it down to the influence of sjws or woke hactivists or whatever other latest catch phrase you're all parroting, rather than the overwhelming influence of Activision that led at one point to the firing of 800+ employees at once.

    The reason that Blizzard games are shit now aren't weren't before is money. When they made those great games, the primary driver was making great games. Now it is making great money, and often the output of that is games with shit choices.

    I actually am of the opinion that this announcement was made in bad faith for appearances, but that doesn't mean the role is inherently a bad idea.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    It wouldn't matter even a smidgeon for the character of gandalf if he was African American.
    Well not to you it wouldn't , but that's not a very good argument. You just aren't very smart or cultured. There are a lot of those out there in the world that's why Rings of Power is made unfortunately these people with no self awareness exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    The funny thing is that you all put it down to the influence of sjws or woke hactivists or whatever other latest catch phrase you're all parroting, rather than the overwhelming influence of Activision that led at one point to the firing of 800+ employees at once.

    The reason that Blizzard games are shit now aren't weren't before is money. When they made those great games, the primary driver was making great games. Now it is making great money, and often the output of that is games with shit choices.

    I actually am of the opinion that this announcement was made in bad faith for appearances, but that doesn't mean the role is inherently a bad idea.
    Except I didn't put it all down to sjws and woke on why Blizzard went downhill. Stop talking to me... You are very defensive of your idealogy.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Fair enough. I'd then recommend passing over articles about things that are not specifically about the game, since you are not the audience for those articles, rather than questioning why things that don't appeal to you exist.
    Well, let me be real here then. I am sure Blizzard will appreciate the honest feedback anyways. I have feeling we are getting way too much of these interviews and things that are going on inside the company rather than actual in-game content. I believe something needs to be done about that. It lies within our nature to question things because only then you can improve or discover something new.
    Behold my new creation!


  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Chilela

    When there's programs out there to specifically assist certain groups of people in the hiring process, then the presumption that there's a chance those specific programs were the only reason people got into their jobs of choice isn't entirely off the mark. I've had to turn down such opportunities myself specifically because I'm opposed to them on principle.
    This literally is never the case. This is one of those "tell me you've never hired people without telling me you've never hired people" moments.

    There is no scorecard that awards points, where you say "wow this guy is good, he's way more qualified, clearly the better candidate.. but.. oops, she's black so she gets it". Employers simply don't compare people like that.

    The argument you make in the way you make it implies that you can't find candidates as good in underrepresented minorities, which isn't the case. The reason that programs such as these are necessary is because such candidates DO exist, but get far fewer positions due to prexisting employer bias, whether intentional or not. The programs exist to counter existing bias, not to form new bias.

    But you would know this, if you were actually involved in any.



    Disregarding the brevity of her tenure (even if it was cut short for perfectly valid reasons), the people calling "diversity hire" probably did so in large part thanks to how fresh the lawsuits were at the time. Even with her legitimate qualifications, it did have "PR move" vibes written all over it.

    Completely unrelated, but if Martinez doesn't say "The culture [of this company] is actually damn good", I'll want my money back.
    It certainly did - similar to my previous post I'm certainly not convinced Blizzard is acting in good faith but out of necessity (in terms of announcing the hire, not making it). That doesn't mean she can't get in there and make real, positive change though. Regardless of the motivesbehind the change, often the outcomes can be good in the end.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    Well not to you it wouldn't , but that's not a very good argument. You just aren't very smart or cultured. There are a lot of those out there in the world that's why Rings of Power is made unfortunately these people with no self awareness exist.
    Uncultured.. because.. Gandalf's race doesn't matter? Rofl.



    Except I didn't put it all down to sjws and woke on why Blizzard went downhill. Stop talking to me... You are very defensive of your idealogy.
    Yeah no. You did. You didn't say the words, but you didn't need to. It's patently obvious what your position is. You're right, I'm defensive of my ideology, because my ideology is "people can make art and videogames without becoming sexual harrassment cases and racist ideologues".

  11. #191
    Hentai is culture

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post


    Uncultured.. because.. Gandalf's race doesn't matter? Rofl.


    Yeah no. You did. You didn't say the words, but you didn't need to. It's patently obvious what your position is. You're right, I'm defensive of my ideology, because my ideology is "people can make art and videogames without becoming sexual harrassment cases and racist ideologues".

    You lack the knowledge of Lord of the Rings, it being a European story and don't care about respecting the source materiel. Therefore you are uncultured. It's like taking the story of Journey To The West and making Tripitaka a black man with dreadlocks and saying it doesn't matter.

    No yea. So I didn't. You're just another sensitive SJW that thinks anyone who disagrees with you is sexist and racist. You don't even know what I said.
    I don't like most modern games, especially AAA and don't think Blizzard becoming more diverse and a better place to work means they will make a great game ever again. When game teams get as big as something like the WoW team, too many ideas and cross direction. There is no real leader ship and firm direction.
    That must really offend you. My opinion must make you cry
    Last edited by GratsDing45; 2022-05-06 at 03:44 AM.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    Why dont companies like Square Enix or FromSoft have bad workplace environments or we don't hear about them? I don't think those companies are very diverse.
    I'm not sure why people have such a hard on for diversity. You can make a good working environment without it. Maybe it has to do with work ethic and culture and skill. The idea that Blizzard is way more diverse so they are now a great place to work is hilarious.
    Well, Square Enix is simple. It's Japan. A place where if you complain you're basically told you're not loyal enough to the business. Where if you are sexually harassed the reply from those in power is "Why are you upset if a guy finds you attractive?"

    Hell, the high up devs even make memes about being overworked. It's the culture over there to work a stupid amount of hours and prove loyalty to the business. Workers' rights while existing on paper are basically treated as suggestions to be ignored.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    WTF is a Culture Dept.?
    Some big companies like Apple, Microsoft and Blizz have culture dept. Their main goal is to make sure that the culture within the company stays cohesive, preventing deviations. Things like values, missions and core beliefs are what they work with. It sounds weird but big companies with offices all around the world needs this to make sure that they behave the same no matter where they are and keep cohesion between regions.

    Example: If a company value creativity and constant innovation, the Culture dept will make sure that these values are upheld by offering workshops doing special events and giving the conditions for the workers to fulfill said missions. If one of these core beliefs are being challenged internally, the culture dept will probably weigh in and interfere at some level while also getting employees that are a good match for the company.

    It is all a little bit abstract but when you are dealing with gigantic companies, they are actually useful. In simpler terms, they oversee a lot of different aspects of the company, make sure everyone is on the same page and increase engagement and communicantion between employees.
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  15. #195
    Stood in the Fire Chilela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    This literally is never the case. This is one of those "tell me you've never hired people without telling me you've never hired people" moments.

    There is no scorecard that awards points, where you say "wow this guy is good, he's way more qualified, clearly the better candidate.. but.. oops, she's black so she gets it". Employers simply don't compare people like that.

    The argument you make in the way you make it implies that you can't find candidates as good in underrepresented minorities, which isn't the case. The reason that programs such as these are necessary is because such candidates DO exist, but get far fewer positions due to prexisting employer bias, whether intentional or not. The programs exist to counter existing bias, not to form new bias.

    But you would know this, if you were actually involved in any.
    And that more or less sums up my grievances with DEI in practice. Rather than go after the root causes of said employer bias, it would rather rely on the very tools that create "in" groups and "out" groups, thus merely changing the people getting unfairly screwed over. I would argue it counters existing bias BY creating new bias. Brings me back to the good old days of seeking out assistance in job-hunting back in college, and one of pieces of "assistance" I got was a list of employers specifically seeking out disabled individuals. Fun times.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    You lack the knowledge of Lord of the Rings, it being a European story and don't care about respecting the source materiel. Therefore you are uncultured. It's like taking the story of Journey To The West and making Tripitaka a black man with dreadlocks and saying it doesn't matter.

    No yea. So I didn't. You're just another sensitive SJW that thinks anyone who disagrees with you is sexist and racist. You don't even know what I said.
    I don't like most modern games, especially AAA and don't think Blizzard becoming more diverse and a better place to work means they will make a great game ever again. When game teams get as big as something like the WoW team, too many ideas and cross direction. There is no real leader ship and firm direction.
    That must really offend you. My opinion must make you cry
    It's not Europe. It's a made up story, loosely based in European mythology. In a world with orcs, hobbits, elves, magic and dragons, it takes a special person to think skin colour is an important part in the character of Gandalf. Hell, you seem to be implying that Gandalf the White is at all tied to his skin colour, which is hilarious.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    It's not Europe. It's a made up story, loosely based in European mythology. In a world with orcs, hobbits, elves, magic and dragons, it takes a special person to think skin colour is an important part in the character of Gandalf. Hell, you seem to be implying that Gandalf the White is at all tied to his skin colour, which is hilarious.
    All those come from European folklore, so don't say loosely based.... and Tolkien was European.

    the Valar and Maiar and all Good powerful beings were associated with the colour white & light. While all things evil and shadow are dark. So why would he be african american? All elves were white also for a reason. But lets make them black too, it doesn't matter, it's 2022. Of course Gandalf being white isn't an important part of his character.

    What was The White Council referring too? A lot of those characters had different hair colours from Saruman's, including Gandalf. You think it would not make a difference if Gandalf decided to show up to the council one day as an african american just because it's 2022 and we don't want Delekii's feeling hurt. How confusing would that be...

    I'm sure you would be happy if Gandalf was portrayed as a fat retard in a wheelchair, atleast then you would finally get representation in fantasy media.


    Infracted.
    Last edited by xskarma; 2022-05-06 at 07:25 AM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Smolderos View Post
    I'm sure this will make the game(s) good.
    Yeah, funny thing is, its a company, not everyone there works on creating the games.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    All those come from European folklore, so don't say loosely based.... and Tolkien was European.

    the Valar and Maiar and all Good powerful beings were associated with the colour white & light. While all things evil and shadow are dark. So why would he be african american? All elves were white also for a reason. But lets make them black too, it doesn't matter, it's 2022. Of course Gandalf being white isn't an important part of his character.

    What was The White Council referring too? A lot of those characters had different hair colours from Saruman's, including Gandalf. You think it would not make a difference if Gandalf decided to show up to the council one day as an african american just because it's 2022 and we don't want Delekii's feeling hurt. How confusing would that be...

    I'm sure you would be happy if Gandalf was portrayed as a fat retard in a wheelchair, atleast then you would finally get representation in fantasy media.
    Wow... It takes a serious intellectual lightweight to think that the themes of Tolkien's stories need to adhere to a "white skin good, dark skin bad" aesthetic.

    Doesn't appear as if your thinly veiled racism took umbrage with prominent characters like Frodo and Aragorn being portrayed by Americans rather than Europeans. Are you also unaware of the fact that people of color can be Europeans as well? The Europe of today looks very different from the Europe of Tolkien's time, and even still these stories aren't actually set in Europe. So, try to tell us again (without making it painfully obvious that you're just a racist asshole) why European actors don't belong in a European based fantasy world simply because of the color of their skin.

  20. #200
    If there not a programmer or dev that actually works on the games code. Shes then no one important. Just a PR stunt.

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