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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    I remember the times where no game developer cared for "equal", and "diverse" workplace. I have also read about them recently in Staats' book about early days of World of Warcraft and Warcraft III development.
    You mean back when women could get treated like shit and nobody said or did anything till it was too late, isn't that exactly what caused the current shit storm? The good old days were great, as long as they happened to someone else.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    First of all, more than 2% of the population is LGBT+. It's more like 7%.
    Second of all, those numbers are higher in California.
    Third of all, those numbers are higher with young people.
    Fourth of all, those numbers are higher with people interested in video games.

    So you are looking at a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset and asking why it doesn't reflect the general population. It's like asking why Muslims are not well represented in the community of Caucasian hog farmers in Alabama.
    Do you have any proof to this?

    Mostly thats its 7%, that they are inflated in cali and that the numbers for some reason would be higher for people interested in videogames.

    Interested in videogames is also a bit of a stretch when it comes to getting a developement job.
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2022-05-16 at 11:59 AM.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Do you have any proof to this?

    Mostly thats its 7%, that they are inflated in cali and that the numbers for some reason would be higher for people interested in videogames.

    Interested in videogames is also a bit of a stretch when it comes to getting a developement job.
    Very few of the people you see in these videos are developers. They are usually artists and designers. Those are different fields that attract very different demographics.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/332522/...cans-lgbt.aspx

    Do you need me to justify the idea that California has a higher rate of self-identified LGBT people than say.... Alabama? I think it is fairly obvious. If the rate is 7% nationwide, it stands to reason that places which are known for having things like gay neighborhoods and progressive rights for LGBT people will have higher rates of self-identification in that regard.

    Similarly, do I really need to justify that people who are interested in video games and nerd culture will in general have higher rates of self identification as LGBT than, for example, elderly people?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Very few of the people you see in these videos are developers. They are usually artists and designers. Those are different fields that attract very different demographics.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/332522/...cans-lgbt.aspx

    Do you need me to justify the idea that California has a higher rate of self-identified LGBT people than say.... Alabama? I think it is fairly obvious. If the rate is 7% nationwide, it stands to reason that places which are known for having things like gay neighborhoods and progressive rights for LGBT people will have higher rates of self-identification in that regard.

    Similarly, do I really need to justify that people who are interested in video games and nerd culture will in general have higher rates of self identification as LGBT than, for example, elderly people?
    While developers usually refers to programmers when i said game developers i meant the people working on developing the game overall. That means not HR people, support staff and such but programmers, artists and so on.

    Even if we are generous and say 10% of developers are LGBT that still way, way less then what we are presented at in dev interviews, and those are only counting the people who are visibly lgtb(as the article you linked says, most lgbt simply identify as bisexual).

    Also you are double dipping when you say gamers are more likely to be lgbt because they are younger since you already used the being younger as an argument.

    If you frequent any social media these days you will also see many girls identifying as bisexual without actually being it. Just saying. Might be a good indicator why lgbt numbers are rising specifically within the bisexual statistic.
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2022-05-17 at 09:11 AM.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    WTF is a Culture Dept.?
    Some woke shit where you do nothing or complain about non issues and get paid for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    I remember the times where no game developer cared for "equal", and "diverse" workplace. I have also read about them recently in Staats' book about early days of World of Warcraft and Warcraft III development.

    It was just sweaty nerds with lots of passion. There was no diversity departament, no culture departament, no queer departament, there were guys working their asses off and producing iconic games, like Warcraft II, Warcraft III, StarCraft, Call of Duty 2, Gothic, Neverwinter Nights...

    Now, you have "diverse" and "equal" work environments, spewing vile stuff like Warcraft Rumble, Shadowlands, or any other Battlefield2042-esque soulless games.

    Why can't we focus on quality again?
    Based.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    While developers usually refers to programmers when i said game developers i meant the people working on developing the game overall. That means not HR people, support staff and such but programmers, artists and so on.

    Even if we are generous and say 10% of developers are LGBT that still way, way less then what we are presented at in dev interviews, and those are only counting the people who are visibly lgtb(as the article you linked says, most lgbt simply identify as bisexual).

    Also you are double dipping when you say gamers are more likely to be lgbt because they are younger since you already used the being younger as an argument.

    If you frequent any social media these days you will also see many girls identifying as bisexual without actually being it. Just saying. Might be a good indicator why lgbt numbers are rising specifically within the bisexual statistic.
    I'm glad that we have you here to be the arbiter of which women are bisexual. That says it all.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I'm glad that we have you here to be the arbiter of which women are bisexual. That says it all.
    Its easy to pull things out of context, act offended and then brush everything else off as if it didnt exist. The women i am talking about identify themselves as bisexual while self admitting that they would never have sex with a women. Its not something i am guessing too its themselves saying it. Tiktok is a strange place.

    Being offended does not mean you are right.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Its easy to pull things out of context, act offended and then brush everything else off as if it didnt exist. The women i am talking about identify themselves as bisexual while self admitting that they would never have sex with a women. Its not something i am guessing too its themselves saying it. Tiktok is a strange place.

    Being offended does not mean you are right.
    Can you provide me the statistics on that?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Can you provide me the statistics on that?
    I can not because its anecdotal as was pretty easy to see from my message. Its also irrelevant to the topic, it was just a sidecomment that you then turned on
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2022-05-17 at 03:38 PM.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I can not because its anecdotal as was pretty easy to see from my message. Its also irrelevant to the topic, it was just a sidecomment that you then turned on
    Nothing else you said really countered my point, which is what you are expecting a subset of a subset of a subset to look like the general population. You are expecting young game designers and artists from California to reflect the general population demographically, and on top of that you started with a number that was less than half the general population number.

    To say that we would get from 7% to 10% by drilling three subsets deep strains credulity. Just looking at Gen Z alone can bring the numbers up to 15%. Millennials are not far behind them at around 10%. On top of that, you are filtering for creative people who live in California and are interested in nerd culture.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Nothing else you said really countered my point, which is what you are expecting a subset of a subset of a subset to look like the general population. You are expecting young game designers and artists from California to reflect the general population demographically, and on top of that you started with a number that was less than half the general population number.

    To say that we would get from 7% to 10% by drilling three subsets deep strains credulity. Just looking at Gen Z alone can bring the numbers up to 15%. Millennials are not far behind them at around 10%. On top of that, you are filtering for creative people who live in California and are interested in nerd culture.
    Even if we are generous and say 10% of developers are LGBT that still way, way less then what we are presented at in dev interviews, and those are only counting the people who are visibly lgtb(as the article you linked says, most lgbt simply identify as bisexual).
    Also you are double dipping when you say gamers are more likely to be lgbt because they are younger since you already used the being younger as an argument.
    Yes it did.

    How do you define "young game designer" and why exactly do they have to be young?

    o say that we would get from 7% to 10% by drilling three subsets deep strains credulity.
    These arent additive mate. Thats not how demographics work. In your mind if we had 60 subsets 100% of them would be lgbt.

    Its frankly laughable to try and convince me that the people who apply for developmenet and art positions at blizzard are 15%+ lgbt. You really cant be serious about that. Plus the fact that what we saw in the demo is more like 25-30% lgbt.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Yes it did.

    How do you define "young game designer" and why exactly do they have to be young?

    These arent additive mate. Thats not how demographics work. In your mind if we had 60 subsets 100% of them would be lgbt.

    Its frankly laughable to try and convince me that the people who apply for developmenet and art positions at blizzard are 15%+ lgbt. You really cant be serious about that. Plus the fact that what we saw in the demo is more like 25-30% lgbt.
    We are talking about young people because that's who is in the videos. Do you think most of the people in these videos are over 60? I don't mean young like 19. The oldest millennials are almost 40.

    Nothing I said was additive. If the general population is 7% LGBT+, and we know young people are more likely to be LGBT+, it is not additive to say the number will be higher than 7% for young people, especially when we know gen z is 15% lgbt+.

    The people in the demo were not 25-30% LGBT+. That's an absurd figure that you can't substantiate at all. It's just a lie.

    I understand that the actual numbers are difficult for you to believe, because you clearly aren't in touch with reality on this subject, but "NUH UH" isn't an argument.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    We are talking about young people because that's who is in the videos. Do you think most of the people in these videos are over 60? I don't mean young like 19. The oldest millennials are almost 40.

    Nothing I said was additive. If the general population is 7% LGBT+, and we know young people are more likely to be LGBT+, it is not additive to say the number will be higher than 7% for young people, especially when we know gen z is 15% lgbt+.

    The people in the demo were not 25-30% LGBT+. That's an absurd figure that you can't substantiate at all. It's just a lie.

    I understand that the actual numbers are difficult for you to believe, because you clearly aren't in touch with reality on this subject, but "NUH UH" isn't an argument.
    So you classify 40 year olds as young people then. Right

    Ion is from 78 and i'm pretty sure the lead for classic is that or older aswell.

    Its additive in the way you somehow think that subsets of subsets keep upping the 15% of people who are lgbt. I havent seen any compelling evidence that gen-z is anywhere near 15% lgbt, it sounds absolutely ludicrous and like you just like cherry picking.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    So you classify 40 year olds as young people then. Right

    Ion is from 78 and i'm pretty sure the lead for classic is that or older aswell.

    Its additive in the way you somehow think that subsets of subsets keep upping the 15% of people who are lgbt. I havent seen any compelling evidence that gen-z is anywhere near 15% lgbt, it sounds absolutely ludicrous and like you just like cherry picking.
    You being confused isn't an argument. You clearly just don't know anything about this and have a lot of assumptions and baggage:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lgbtq-i...-generation-z/

    Yes, that is how subsets work. That is not what additive means. Do you think that if someone says "3% of people have cancer at a given time" then they mean that 3% of five year olds AND 3% of 60 year olds have cancer?!?!?! Is that actually how you think stats work?

    I'm still waiting for you to justify that 1/4th of the people in the demo were LGBT+.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #375
    "Jessica joins Blizzard after more than 14 years leading strategy, communications, operations and employee experience at the Walt Disney Company, where she served as Chief of Staff and key strategic advisor to both the Chief Security Officer and the Chief Technology & Digital Officer for Disney Parks & Resorts". So, what you are saying is this person was the key strategic advisor for the whole grooming campaign came from???

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    So you classify 40 year olds as young people then. Right

    Ion is from 78 and i'm pretty sure the lead for classic is that or older aswell.

    Its additive in the way you somehow think that subsets of subsets keep upping the 15% of people who are lgbt. I havent seen any compelling evidence that gen-z is anywhere near 15% lgbt, it sounds absolutely ludicrous and like you just like cherry picking.
    I mean, we've been over this before: https://today.yougov.com/topics/poli...ups-population

    Gay and Lesbian people hover around 3%, trans people are sub 1% (around 0.6%). Bi and + people make up the difference to get to 7.1 total representation. If we look at Gallup. We see that the rate is drastically increasing, primarily at lower age ranges.
    Roughly 21% of Generation Z Americans who have reached adulthood -- those born between 1997 and 2003 -- identify as LGBT. That is nearly double the proportion of millennials who do so, while the gap widens even further when compared with older generations.
    It's not that hard to do a quick google search to make sure you aren't just talking out of your ass. This is especially important on an internet platform where anyone can fact check you pretty dang quickly.

    edit: kind of a different topic, but these should honestly be numbers that worry people for a number of reasons. Most of these people are bi, but this is a drastic increase that isn't attributable to only a previous lack of social acceptance.
    Last edited by Goatfish; 2022-05-25 at 05:09 AM.

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    kind of a different topic, but these should honestly be numbers that worry people for a number of reasons. Most of these people are bi, but this is a drastic increase that isn't attributable to only a previous lack of social acceptance.
    Why would they worry people? First off, it very much could be attributable to only a lack of social acceptance, which is a mild way to put it given that for the generations before millenials acknowledging a queer identity could very well destroy your life and remains illegal in large parts of this planet to this day.
    And yes beyond that there is an argument made that queer sexualities are evolutionary responses.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    edit: kind of a different topic, but these should honestly be numbers that worry people for a number of reasons. Most of these people are bi, but this is a drastic increase that isn't attributable to only a previous lack of social acceptance.
    Yeah, I'm sure progressing past a time when simply coming out as LGBT was pretty much guaranteed to see you ostracized or even just straight up brutally murdered TOTALLY has nothing to do with an increase in people identifying as such.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Why would they worry people? First off, it very much could be attributable to only a lack of social acceptance, which is a mild way to put it given that for the generations before millenials acknowledging a queer identity could very well destroy your life and remains illegal in large parts of this planet to this day.
    And yes beyond that there is an argument made that queer sexualities are evolutionary responses.
    One worry would be that a large enough body of people that is not having children puts strain on society over time. The people that have kids then need to have more kids to maintain the population which causes a bigger financial burden on those people. You also end up with issues like how to deal with a larger elderly population that doesn't have children to help take care of them. We could also look at facts such as rate of mental illness being seemingly tied to the rates of LGBT identifying people, meaning that a rise in such people could also be correlated with a rise in mental illness in a society. Before anyone comes in screaming that correlation doesn't equal causation, sure, but it's well worth looking into and some of what we see shows that victimization is not correlated with depression for instance. Social support seems to be a bigger factor, but contrary to what some people think this doesn't mean that society as a whole supports you, it means rather that you have a support group for social issues.

    I haven't seen anything suggesting that queer sexualities are an evolutionary response, and I imagine that anything on that point is mere speculation at this point. It probably links closer to adaptation rather than evolution, such as by environmental pathogens like increased pollution of many types over time, or internet access. A lot of this quite potentially ties in with behaviors such as "mate-choice copying" and the "Fisher runaway process". It's not that any one thing is the cause, but rather that many different variable are likely to have an effect that cumulatively has significance. Here's a source that hypothesizes about and explains how convoluted the whole issue is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure progressing past a time when simply coming out as LGBT was pretty much guaranteed to see you ostracized or even just straight up brutally murdered TOTALLY has nothing to do with an increase in people identifying as such.
    I said it wasn't only attributable to that, not that it didn't play a role at all. We can compare rates to other countries that have been more allowing of LGBT in history and see that their rates are not as high, nor did they grow as fast as what we are seeing now as far as we can tell from historical data.

    To put it most simply for both of you. The reason I say that it should be a worry or concern of people is that it is a drastic change in representative populations in an incredibly short amount of time. This isn't saying it is necessarily bad (though large demographic changes in a short time tend to have bad long term effects), but it's just as bad to assume that everything is fine and that these are just the real numbers finally coming out. Assuming that these populations are what they always have been but have just been hidden due to social stigma is just begging the question to avoid answers you might find more unsavory.

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