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  1. #181
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    No, I'm not going to play to your attention-seeking behavior. I'm just going to ask you - was James T. Kirk more cerebral or more a man of action?

    Please think carefully before answering. I think even you will be able to come to the right conclusion.

    Given that Rodenberry himself described Star Trek as a "western in space", who do you think you are to decide what is and isn't Star Trek because it's more action-oriented? Do you find westerns too cerebral? Does it excite you when the hero and the villain sit around and calmly negotiate how big the town actually is?

    Oh, wait. They shoot at each other. Sounds pretty action-oriented, doesn't it?

    You're so desperate to prove your point, you completely ignore the fact that Wrath of Khan isn't just about the awesome space battles. It's also about Kirk's fear of growing old, and Khan's obsession with punishing Kirk, and other, more cerebral things. And that First Contact isn't just "boom go Borg", it's also about Picard overcoming his prejudice and hatred of the Borg, and the crew of the Enterprise helping guide our materialistic, war-loving society into the peaceful, utopian future Rodenberry set up in TOS.

    Yeah, you've missed all those things. And now, since I've so completely schooled you, I'm done with you. And you know what? That's one thing I won't miss.
    I dont know man. The 60 year old (at the time) British actor who was expressly cast and written to be the opposite of kirk shouldn't be the above. But unfortunately he is. Actually worse than that because Kirk's most aggregious display of emotion was screaming Khan name. Star trek is a show about professionals acting professional under fire. In fact picard gives Wesley a lecture about actin under pressured. Thats picard reserved and stoic. Not that crap.

    Now here's the thing I know I won't miss your asanine dribble because I'm going to block you. After I schooled you that is.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I dont know man. The 60 year old (at the time) British actor who was expressly cast and written to be the opposite of kirk shouldn't be the above. But unfortunately he is. Actually worse than that because Kirk's most aggregious display of emotion was screaming Khan name. Star trek is a show about professionals acting professional under fire. In fact picard gives Wesley a lecture about actin under pressured. Thats picard reserved and stoic. Not that crap.
    Shatner was notorious for overacting, especially in emotional scenes. It sounds generational to me with the younger crowd not knowing this detail.

    Sir Patrick Stewart was chosen specifically because of his theater background and the fact he had great acting chops. His stoic portrayal was his choice. And he was in his 40s when cast as that was over 35 years ago now or he'd be more like 100 instead of 80-81ish.

    But don't let facts get in the way of your rant. You got this.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakut View Post
    Shatner was notorious for overacting, especially in emotional scenes. It sounds generational to me with the younger crowd not knowing this detail.

    Sir Patrick Stewart was chosen specifically because of his theater background and the fact he had great acting chops. His stoic portrayal was his choice. And he was in his 40s when cast as that was over 35 years ago now or he'd be more like 100 instead of 80-81ish.

    But don't let facts get in the way of your rant. You got this.
    It wasnt a choice it was an experiment that's exactly why Riker exists and why his entire arc ends in best of both worlds.because the British diplomat experiment worked and they didn't need back up action man. Picard isn't kirk until the movies when they decide Picard needed to over act. And even that would make kirk blush because Picard screaming nooooo and smashing the shit out of his ship is over acting even for Shatner. Arguable the only thing similar is kirk screaming khan in wrath of khan.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It wasnt a choice it was an experiment that's exactly why Riker exists and why his entire arc ends in best of both worlds.because the British diplomat experiment worked and they didn't need back up action man. Picard isn't kirk until the movies when they decide Picard needed to over act. And even that would make kirk blush because Picard screaming nooooo and smashing the shit out of his ship is over acting even for Shatner. Arguable the only thing similar is kirk screaming khan in wrath of khan.
    You cherry pick facts you like and ignore the ones you don't. It's called confirmation bias. An experiment is still a choice.

    Also Stewart was known for his insistence that the character and set be run a certain way. While the rest of the cast had fun, he didn't - which led to a lot of on set conflict. Though he later "let his hair down" so to speak and began to enjoy the fun his crew had. This was later inferred in the last episode when his crew invited him to the poker table in the last episode - an indication he was always part of their group (behind the scenes) if he'd relax. But that stoic portrayal was his idea and his execution - his choice.

    Season 3 TNG season finale, it was not known if Picard would return because he was likely going to be replaced. His stoic attitude was primarily why and fans did not relate to him at the time. They used the finale and season 4 premiere to give him a more relatable and emotional dynamic (Patrick Stewart related this story years later).

    It sounds to me like you pick which story in your head fits what facts you accept and doesn't fit the facts you reject. You're still wrong. And, unfortunately, that's bad for your entire premise and responses.
    Last edited by Yakut; 2022-06-26 at 03:57 PM.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It wasnt a choice it was an experiment that's exactly why Riker exists and why his entire arc ends in best of both worlds.because the British diplomat experiment worked and they didn't need back up action man. Picard isn't kirk until the movies when they decide Picard needed to over act. And even that would make kirk blush because Picard screaming nooooo and smashing the shit out of his ship is over acting even for Shatner. Arguable the only thing similar is kirk screaming khan in wrath of khan.
    This is a take I obstinately disagree with (and one perpetuated by Redlettermedia.) Riker's decision not to take command of his own ship is because the Enterprise is a unique opportunity. The Enterprise is the ship constantly making first contact & getting into unique adventures. Being a commander on the Flagship is itself a great privilege. That and Riker grows a lot, despite how un-serialized TNG is compared to more modern series: He becomes a family man.

  6. #186
    Guys can't you continue this in message or something?

    You are both just finding articles that agree with your point about a twenty odd year old series, you won't settle this amicably

    It's the strange new worlds thread
    Last edited by molliewoof; 2022-06-26 at 05:31 PM.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    Given that Rodenberry himself described Star Trek as a "western in space", who do you think you are to decide what is and isn't Star Trek because it's more action-oriented? Do you find westerns too cerebral? Does it excite you when the hero and the villain sit around and calmly negotiate how big the town actually is?

    Oh, wait. They shoot at each other. Sounds pretty action-oriented, doesn't it?
    This is specifically why as much as I love them, hate what Redlettermedia has done to this fandom. Long ago establishing, their brand as "hating on Star Trek & Star Wars." Famously, Mike Stoklasa used Power Play as an example of a plot "not needing violence to create tension" but as you probably realize, this is extremely misleading statement: Power Play has 3 schlocky bar fight scenes. How long did RLM actually look for an episode without an action sequence before he just decided to fake it using editing?

    Their problem with Modern Trek is a matter of genre, which itself isn't an argument: Their problem with Discovery is either a nitpick that doesn't make sense (TOS did have replicators, Mike) or that the show is more serialized than TNG. There's basically a spectrum of how serialized a show is from 1 to 5, with vignette series like the Twilight Zone being a (1) and shows that are one continuous story, like Damages or Breaking Bad, being a (5) in this way TNG was a (2) and Discovery is a (4). It seems like Strange New Worlds embraced this & become the un-serialized alternative to Discovery, but there's nothing intrinsically bad about Discovery.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Their problem with Modern Trek is a matter of genre, which itself isn't an argument: Their problem with Discovery is either a nitpick that doesn't make sense (TOS did have replicators, Mike) or that the show is more serialized than TNG. There's basically a spectrum of how serialized a show is from 1 to 5, with vignette series like the Twilight Zone being a (1) and shows that are one continuous story, like Damages or Breaking Bad, being a (5) in this way TNG was a (2) and Discovery is a (4). It seems like Strange New Worlds embraced this & become the un-serialized alternative to Discovery, but there's nothing intrinsically bad about Discovery.
    I agree. "Wagon Train to the stars" was how Gene Roddenberry pitched it to NBC. Star Trek has always been an action show, of varying degrees between episodes depending on the needs and power of the plot device. Strange New Worlds has been extremely faithful to those who are informed about all the series that preceeded it. This flips the script between that and Discovery where Discovery was rather unfaithful for a myriad of reasons - mostly owing to them wanting to push the boundaries (yet, I like both for completely different reasons).

    Strange New Worlds also had a really neat way of showing our course of history in the very first episode. It was an allegory showing how humanity (as the alien race) could go down a very likely and almost certainly destructive path pitting themselves against each other or turn toward a more enlightened world view to become members of an interstellar coalition. That, and of course, the (alternate relative to us) future of the humans in the Trek universe having already been through that didn't want them to do that as well.

    It plays to what Star Trek series have done fairly well over the last 60 years: Try to show that there's a better way. It's an optimistic future which I think is lost on the cynical these days - they want to see phantoms and ghosts rather than see the message attempting to be conveyed. It's easier to reject an idea if you throw a meaningless criticism that has no bearing in reality. After all, a manufactured reason is better than the truth?

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    This is specifically why as much as I love them, hate what Redlettermedia has done to this fandom. Long ago establishing, their brand as "hating on Star Trek & Star Wars." Famously, Mike Stoklasa used Power Play as an example of a plot "not needing violence to create tension" but as you probably realize, this is extremely misleading statement: Power Play has 3 schlocky bar fight scenes. How long did RLM actually look for an episode without an action sequence before he just decided to fake it using editing?

    Their problem with Modern Trek is a matter of genre, which itself isn't an argument: Their problem with Discovery is either a nitpick that doesn't make sense (TOS did have replicators, Mike) or that the show is more serialized than TNG. There's basically a spectrum of how serialized a show is from 1 to 5, with vignette series like the Twilight Zone being a (1) and shows that are one continuous story, like Damages or Breaking Bad, being a (5) in this way TNG was a (2) and Discovery is a (4). It seems like Strange New Worlds embraced this & become the un-serialized alternative to Discovery, but there's nothing intrinsically bad about Discovery.
    Because their critique isn't about action scenes in and of themselves its a matter of tension. When the android.in picard seasons 1 activates and dispatches a room full of romulans with such kung fu ez mode shit it really adds nothing and may as well have been cut out. Its more or less the same with the prequels where they dispatch entire Droid armies with such ease that theirs nothing for the viewer to watch except for.mindless pew pew lazer beams.

    Power play is a perfect example because that scene with them walking to the fucking turbo lift is more engaging to the audience because its tense as opposed to kung fu kicking romulans off the staircase who just get beamed up anyway. No real stakes no real tension just endless king fu schlock with an 80 year old man. They may have 3 fight scenes in power play but they all add to the stakes of the episode and provide real tense moments as opposed to oh look bitch android killed another wave of secret romulan assassins and was never in any actual real danger after she super man leaped to a stair case.

    Funny enough SNW tones the action down but feels far better for it. They still have fights and action but the scale and intensity is toned down a bit so it feels more visceral. SNW feels like it was made by people who watched the rlm critique and its the best star trek in a long time. A LONG time.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2022-06-27 at 04:52 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakut View Post
    I agree. "Wagon Train to the stars" was how Gene Roddenberry pitched it to NBC. Star Trek has always been an action show, of varying degrees between episodes depending on the needs and power of the plot device. Strange New Worlds has been extremely faithful to those who are informed about all the series that preceeded it. This flips the script between that and Discovery where Discovery was rather unfaithful for a myriad of reasons - mostly owing to them wanting to push the boundaries (yet, I like both for completely different reasons).
    Are those "myriad of reasons" code for "includes gay people?" because thematically Discovery isn't any different from any other Trek Series, other than it gives the most screen time to a character that isn't a captain (except by season 3 she is the captain) and even then there's two more Trek series that do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because their critique isn't about action scenes in and of themselves its a matter of tension. When the android.in picard seasons 1 activates and dispatches a room full of romulans with such kung fu ez mode shit it really adds nothing and may as well have been cut out. Its more or less the same with the prequels where they dispatch entire Droid armies with such ease that theirs nothing for the viewer to watch except for.mindless pew pew lazer beams.
    That scene might not be tense but its still necessary to the plot, so no, they can't "just remove it." And they can't engage with the good stuff in picard because they've already checked out because they approach action/adventure differently. Tension isn't the only feeling an action sequence needs to evoke. They're like the most obnoxious film majors in the class. And even at its worst the two picard seasons are like the most middling of Star Trek episodes: It evokes Future's End or Final Mission.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Funny enough SNW tones the action down but feels far better for it. They still have fights and action but the scale and intensity is toned down a bit so it feels more visceral. SNW feels like it was made by people who watched the rlm critique and its the best star trek in a long time. A LONG time.
    I have to agree with you about that, simply because SNW has been so strong in its first season. But I have a problem with how dismissive they are to Discovery & Picard. There's really good stuff there, simply because "tension" and "awe" are the only two emotions these dudes can use to engage with media.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Are those "myriad of reasons" code for "includes gay people?" because thematically Discovery isn't any different from any other Trek Series, other than it gives the most screen time to a character that isn't a captain (except by season 3 she is the captain) and even then there's two more Trek series that do that.
    That scene might not be tense but its still necessary to the plot, so no, they can't "just remove it." And they can't engage with the good stuff in picard because they've already checked out because they approach action/adventure differently. Tension isn't the only feeling an action sequence needs to evoke. They're like the most obnoxious film majors in the class. And even at its worst the two picard seasons are like the most middling of Star Trek episodes: It evokes Future's End or Final Mission.
    I have to agree with you about that, simply because SNW has been so strong in its first season. But I have a problem with how dismissive they are to Discovery & Picard. There's really good stuff there, simply because "tension" and "awe" are the only two emotions these dudes can use to engage with media.
    It's about whats at stake. Neither picard nor android bitch are in any remote danger when she can super man leap and kung fu kicks romulans with such ease. Theirs never any real threat so that scene in particular may as well not have existed. They could have just walked up the stairs to their destination because their was never a chance they were going to be in any danger.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Are those "myriad of reasons" code for "includes gay people?" because thematically Discovery isn't any different from any other Trek Series, other than it gives the most screen time to a character that isn't a captain (except by season 3 she is the captain) and even then there's two more Trek series that do that.
    No, that did not enter into a myriad of reasons. What did, however, was the rather faithless adherence to most of the continuuity. It was so lambasted for this particular point that they were forced to move the show so far into the future that they could reasonably ignore it. I'm actually for this jump for the same said reason. Careful not to read between lines not drawn.

  13. #193
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    We've been busy lately so we're starting to catch up on the show and just watched the episode based on the Omelas shorty story and wow, was it done well. When I realized where they were going with the story I paused the show to explain Omelas to my wife, and as the rest of the episode played out it hit really hard. I think the part that really impacted my wife was when Minister Alora began comparing their society's benefitting from another's suffering to the suffering we accept for some in our own society while others have more than they could use in 10,000 lifetimes.

  14. #194
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Have they run out of original material?

    I wanted Star Trek, not Aliens vs Predator
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  15. #195
    I honestly love ST:SNW... really good.

    If the fandom doesn't like it i am not suprised. The whole identity of modern fandom of any old franchise/media is hating vigeorously on everything new... werid honestly.
    Also incredibly... right... for some reason...

    Show is fun to watch, characters are likekable, stories make sense, no unnecesary whining and episodic which is a relieve from all those season spanning tv shows right now.

  16. #196
    this was probably my most disliked episode

    spoilers



    does anyone else think the gorm just couldnt be any sort of a threat to starfleet? if they just kill each other on sight how did they make ships?

    why is someone shouting at them an then running away more aggressive than someone trying to shoot them, which seemed to hurt them.

    i didnt like that they brought the other apprentice in just to kill her, that should just have been a red shirt

    i wasnt bored or anything but yeah least favourite episode, still a great series and 9/10 episodes great aint bad

  17. #197
    Banned Izthak's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    I wonder if this last episode is the beginning of an explanation for why Spock behaves the way he does in the TOS pilot upon encountering the singing plants.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by molliewoof View Post
    does anyone else think the gorm just couldnt be any sort of a threat to starfleet? if they just kill each other on sight how did they make ships?
    They don't, though. Their newborns do, with only the strongest surviving and maturing into adulthood. The only time the adults turn on themselves (so far) is when they appear to be invaded by enemies or otherwise show signs of weakness.

    why is someone shouting at them an then running away more aggressive than someone trying to shoot them, which seemed to hurt them.
    That was just Spock's decision at the moment. La'an just told him to fight it to make it angry.

    i didnt like that they brought the other apprentice in just to kill her, that should just have been a red shirt
    She was effectively a redshirt, as was the new lieutenant. They just gave her some character and a reason to be there, however minor, beforehand rather than just having her be there just 'cause.
    Last edited by Izthak; 2022-07-01 at 03:42 AM.

  18. #198
    My biggest concern about the show now is that we keep getting TOS characters added. I’ll be annoyed if we get Scotty. I’d much prefer a running joke of rotating engineers. It’s fine to take characters that we know by name and explore them a bit, but Spock/Uhura are enough for long established characters, we don’t need the whole damn TOS crew by the end.

    I’d say this is an 8 for 9 season. I didn’t care for the light virus episode, others I’ve enjoyed. Definitely the strongest Trek S1 I’ve seen.

  19. #199
    amazing episode and loved the horror-like feel the Grom sure are getting some time which is great for a change of pace.
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  20. #200
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    This is specifically why as much as I love them, hate what Redlettermedia has done to this fandom. Long ago establishing, their brand as "hating on Star Trek & Star Wars." Famously, Mike Stoklasa used Power Play as an example of a plot "not needing violence to create tension" but as you probably realize, this is extremely misleading statement: Power Play has 3 schlocky bar fight scenes. How long did RLM actually look for an episode without an action sequence before he just decided to fake it using editing?

    Their problem with Modern Trek is a matter of genre, which itself isn't an argument: Their problem with Discovery is either a nitpick that doesn't make sense (TOS did have replicators, Mike) or that the show is more serialized than TNG. There's basically a spectrum of how serialized a show is from 1 to 5, with vignette series like the Twilight Zone being a (1) and shows that are one continuous story, like Damages or Breaking Bad, being a (5) in this way TNG was a (2) and Discovery is a (4). It seems like Strange New Worlds embraced this & become the un-serialized alternative to Discovery, but there's nothing intrinsically bad about Discovery.
    TOS didn't have replicators...it is even said in later series. "The food synthesizer (or food processor) was a common device used aboard 23rd century starships and starbases for synthesizing foods and beverages. Replacing the older protein resequencer, these food receptacles served as a supplement to the ship's chef and were predecessors to 24th century replicators."

    There is lots of bad about Discovery....from the absolutely awful writing...crying almost every single episode which rivals anime filler in time wasting...and the awful stereotypes and Hollywood tropes used to make every single character. There are no stakes of any kind...no tension, and if someone happens to die they almost always are brought back to life or replaced. (The actress who played Airiam played another character after Airiam stupidly died)

    They didn't even have any faith in Burnham so they had to write a scenario where she basically was the only choice to be promoted to captain...you sure as hell aren't going to promote a recently promoted lieutenant to captain and no one else wanted to even be first officer much less captain.

    The writing is atrocious in all 3 series...they don't bother following any lines, they just smash their crayon to the paper and drag it straight from point A to point B. Discovery didn't even need to go to the 32nd century since the reason they were even leaving had been stopped...they knew Burnham for what...a year or so many of them but they all didn't even put two seconds of thought to abandoning their lives for Burnham. Despite being classified in the 23rd century everyone seemed to know her even almost a millennia later

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