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  1. #221
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I don't know if ripoff is the right term. It felt kind of derivitive to me. Probably my least favorite episode.

    Like even the storybook episode was fun, and played with the actual characters. Whereas the gorn episode just felt like working through aliens cliches.

    I'm still sad they killed off Hemmer, dude was my favorite character.
    Oh yeah, I was bummed Hemmer died. Unfortunately, I know my Trek rules (or tv rules) too well and I called it IMMEDIATELY upon him having that meaningful conversation with Uhura more at the start of the episode. As soon as he basically said the - "losing people hurts but it far outweighs the love you get" the first time, earlier in the episode, I turned to my husband and said, "Welp, he's going to die now." I was saying it tongue-in-cheek, and then bummed when I was right.

    Hubby was just surprised Star Trek killed off a "main character" that soon in the series - since ST isn't known for being the main character killing type (outside of one-episode red-shirts like the newly promoted Lt.). But because this is a 'prequel' - to me "Everyone who isn't mentioned/involved directly in TOS canon is a redshirt." So I wasn't a surprised as he was, as much as Hemmer was "major character" in this show he's still a "red shirt" when it comes to TOS canon. The only non-redshirts on the show to me are Pike, Uhura, Spock, the Doctor (cuz I think he was at some point a character in TOS but I may be wrong).

    Still sucked. I would have been less bummed for half of the rest of the cast to die besides him - but of course, that is probably the point. They wanted us to feel it =D.

    Go out Ripley style man - they just should have wrapped the derivitive bow with the shot of him holding a baby gorn, freezing to death, as he fell. At least if you're going to do it - go full send! =D
    Koriani - Guardians of Forever - BM Huntard on TB; Kharmic - Worgen Druid - TB
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    The only non-redshirts on the show to me are Pike, Uhura, Spock, the Doctor (cuz I think he was at some point a character in TOS but I may be wrong).
    Nurse chapel is also 'invincible' since she's on ToS. She just has a...really rough 8 years apparently.

  3. #223
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    I fucking hope Pike survives man.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #224
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Finally got around to watching Strange New Worlds and why the hell was this not what Nu-Trek was from the start? This is how you do a modern Trek series (interesting that is has a fair few similarities to The Orville), mostly self contained stories with some ongoing plotlines, a focus on fun sci-fi stories and not on drama, and a cast of interesting characters.

    Really my only complaints are about the nature of the series and not it's content. It has all the same prequel problems like characters being invincible and little winks/references to future characters and events. That last one was compounded by the fact that it is also a sequel of sorts to a different series. Whenever something or someone that was mentioned but not explained, I was left wondering if it was a reference to something from Discovery, something that I am not supposed to know because it will be revealed later or just a cheeky mention of some future thing I just didn't recall. The pilot was the worst for this when characters not really being introduced and talk of Pike somehow knowing his future (something that was never explained in SNW).

    All in all, really enjoyed it. It's too bad Discovery and Picard are nothing like this. Maybe they will learn something and make adjustments.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Finally got around to watching Strange New Worlds and why the hell was this not what Nu-Trek was from the start? This is how you do a modern Trek series (interesting that is has a fair few similarities to The Orville), mostly self contained stories with some ongoing plotlines, a focus on fun sci-fi stories and not on drama, and a cast of interesting characters.

    Really my only complaints are about the nature of the series and not it's content. It has all the same prequel problems like characters being invincible and little winks/references to future characters and events. That last one was compounded by the fact that it is also a sequel of sorts to a different series. Whenever something or someone that was mentioned but not explained, I was left wondering if it was a reference to something from Discovery, something that I am not supposed to know because it will be revealed later or just a cheeky mention of some future thing I just didn't recall. The pilot was the worst for this when characters not really being introduced and talk of Pike somehow knowing his future (something that was never explained in SNW).

    All in all, really enjoyed it. It's too bad Discovery and Picard are nothing like this. Maybe they will learn something and make adjustments.
    Agreed, I'm never a fan of prequels or any destiny based storyline.

    The best thing they could have done in that last episode was broke entirely away from that timeline, maybe kill Kirk or something, would have been a good twist to end on after a series building toward don't run from destiny.

    But hey ho still a great series

  6. #226
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    why the hell was this not what Nu-Trek was from the start?
    Because actors, directors, writers, and all kinds of other creative people want to do different things on different shows. If every Trek show was a carbon copy of TOS or TNG then viewers will start tuning out, eventually. As much as I enjoyed Voyager and have heard that Enterprise had some satisfying later seasons they both pretty much put "old" Trek in the grave. The Kelvin films, being quite tonally different, kept the franchise alive and Discovery re-invigorated it despite the wailing of the purists. Discovery, and Picard, brought in new viewers who were looking for something other than TNG-esque morality plays. And with Discovery's success, and then Picard's success, Paramount was free to start greenlighting other types of shows, including a more traditional Strange New Worlds. But make no mistake, there was no way they were just going to do the same old thing all over again, and it almost certainly would not have been very successful.

    People need to figure out for themselves that not every piece of media within a particular franchise is going to be aimed solely at the original audience. Nobody greenlighting these budgets wants to intentionally shrink their audience, by playing it safe, with every new iteration. If you don't like Discovery, don't watch it. If you don't like Book of Boba Fett, don't watch it. If you don't like Ms. Marvel, don't watch it. If you're a big enough audience they will soon make something more to your tastes, anyway.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Because actors, directors, writers, and all kinds of other creative people want to do different things on different shows. If every Trek show was a carbon copy of TOS or TNG then viewers will start tuning out, eventually. As much as I enjoyed Voyager and have heard that Enterprise had some satisfying later seasons they both pretty much put "old" Trek in the grave. The Kelvin films, being quite tonally different, kept the franchise alive and Discovery re-invigorated it despite the wailing of the purists. Discovery, and Picard, brought in new viewers who were looking for something other than TNG-esque morality plays. And with Discovery's success, and then Picard's success, Paramount was free to start greenlighting other types of shows, including a more traditional Strange New Worlds. But make no mistake, there was no way they were just going to do the same old thing all over again, and it almost certainly would not have been very successful.

    People need to figure out for themselves that not every piece of media within a particular franchise is going to be aimed solely at the original audience. Nobody greenlighting these budgets wants to intentionally shrink their audience, by playing it safe, with every new iteration. If you don't like Discovery, don't watch it. If you don't like Book of Boba Fett, don't watch it. If you don't like Ms. Marvel, don't watch it. If you're a big enough audience they will soon make something more to your tastes, anyway.
    I completely agree with the second part. Do not get why people feel the need to watch everything.* I give shows a couple episodes at most to hook me, then move on!

    That said, as someone who watched I think 2 eps of Discovery and 3 of Picard before turning them off, I'm curious what these two new shows will be. I've always wanted a political drama between major powers more like DS9 or Babylon 5, though I'm not sure how that would translate these days. Like the Bajoran Cardassian stuff was always awesome, asking the interesting questions of "what happens after the war??" which seems really rare.

    Seems like they are really averse to that era though


    *I think this is an issue with the content mill problem. Some of us are still used to the era of "hey there's a star wars movie every 3 years!" and it is like an event. But that's not true anymore, stuff is produced at an insane rate in the content mill, and the only way to keep your sanity is to just like stop watching crap you dont like even if you normally enjoy the IP.

  8. #228
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    I completely agree with the second part. Do not get why people feel the need to watch everything.* I give shows a couple episodes at most to hook me, then move on!
    Agree. If only the people making said shows also agreed. It isn't really possibly to just watch the shows you like when everything is a connected universe now. Can you just watch The Mandalorian and not also watch the spin-offs like Boba Fett and the Ahsoka shows or Strange New Worlds without having seen Discovery or even the new Doctor Strange movie without having seen Wandavision? And I am not talking the little jokes and references, Pike's main motivation comes from something (a vision of his future?) that I think comes from Discovery and the antagonist of the Strange movie's entire motivation comes from Wandavision.

    I am all for making media for all different kinds of people, but then don't make them all interconnected so you have to watch them all.

  9. #229
    well it's obviously a technique to get people to watch them all. I also find it annoying personally.

    That said, i have never watched the Pike stuff in Discovery and it didn't seem hard to pick up anything! so Trek hasn't been too bad so far.

    And I stopped watching Marvel shows after the first three left a really sour taste in my mouth, but then again I also have like 0 interest in the movies after endgame until they do X-men so I guess it doesn't matter!

  10. #230
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    And I am not talking the little jokes and references, Pike's main motivation comes from something (a vision of his future?) that I think comes from Discovery
    It actually comes from The Original Series, but him becoming aware of his fate did indeed happen in Discovery. But knowing that he became aware of it via a Klingon Time Crystal is literally all you need to know from Discovery to appreciate SNW.

    You do have a point about the interconnectedness of all these shows, but I just read what I need to know from what I don't want to watch and continue with what I do want to watch. Taking the MCU as an example, I dip into what interests me and pass on what doesn't and just read spoilers for what I may need to know.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post

    People need to figure out for themselves that not every piece of media within a particular franchise is going to be aimed solely at the original audience.
    Here's the thing. The one thing that made the Kelvin movies work for the original audiences, despite it being essentially just action flicks in the Star Trek universe, was that they did ultimately stay loyal to Rodenberry's vision of what Star Trek is meant to be.

    A positive and hopeful future.

    2 of the 3 movies fundamentally deal with internal failures in the Federation itself, an admiral on a warpath and a war veteran who was abandoned on the frontier.

    But ultimately it was about overcoming and confronting those failures.

    Discovery...just doesn't do anything of the sort until the final season. The Burn plotline was also absolutely abysmal. They came up with this great idea with the Burn, but it felt like they didn't know how to actually conclude it, which is why it's quickly discarded with the focus shifted to the Emerald Chain. By the way even the Burn plotline didn't make much sense for Trekkies as there's 50 years worth of lore on how warp travel works. "Dilithium" is not required for warp travel, it just happens to be a specific material the Federation prefers in their reactors, but it's been established that other races use other systems, like notably the Romulans use micro singularities that have nothing to do with dilithium, and Earth's first warp drive also didn't use dilithium but other means.

    Picard's plot is weird, convoluted and all over the place. 2nd season sorta makes more sense...but it still does weird things to cannon.

    I think what stood out both in Discovery and Picard was that everyone was miserable. No optimism, no hope. That's why when Pike showed up in Discovery it was a breath of fresh air.

  12. #232
    So I just started watching this, and I gotta say, the actor they chose for Pike is a fucking home run. I feel like he is a Starfleet captain in real life, he is perfect for the role.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  13. #233
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    It actually comes from The Original Series, but him becoming aware of his fate did indeed happen in Discovery. But knowing that he became aware of it via a Klingon Time Crystal is literally all you need to know from Discovery to appreciate SNW.

    You do have a point about the interconnectedness of all these shows, but I just read what I need to know from what I don't want to watch and continue with what I do want to watch. Taking the MCU as an example, I dip into what interests me and pass on what doesn't and just read spoilers for what I may need to know.
    Yeah, I am aware of Pike's fate, but I was talking about the vision or whatever. Him knowing his future is a major part of his character for all of the first season and outside of some vague flashes right at the start and a few conversations he has, it is never explained on SNW. Me, someone who had only seen the first half of season one of Discovery before deciding it wasn't for me, I spent the whole season waiting for the scene to fully explain it and it never came so I had to look it up online. That's really my only point. Some interconnectivity is fun, but some people are going way to hard with it.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Here's the thing. The one thing that made the Kelvin movies work for the original audiences, despite it being essentially just action flicks in the Star Trek universe, was that they did ultimately stay loyal to Rodenberry's vision of what Star Trek is meant to be.

    A positive and hopeful future.
    Also a good and likeable cast of main characters that reinterpreted the classic ones.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    So I just started watching this, and I gotta say, the actor they chose for Pike is a fucking home run. I feel like he is a Starfleet captain in real life, he is perfect for the role.
    Aston Mount has very quickly moved into my top 3 favorite captains. He oozes charisma and fits the role perfectly.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    So I just started watching this, and I gotta say, the actor they chose for Pike is a fucking home run. I feel like he is a Starfleet captain in real life, he is perfect for the role.
    He is great

    (and also insanely hot)

  17. #237
    He really as amazing casting. In fact, nearly everyone in the show has been amazingly cast. The only actor I have an issue with is Peck as Spock; I just don't think he does the character service. He lacks the raw gravitas and confidence that Nimoy brought to the role. Heck, Hemmer felt more like a true Vulcan in most of his scenes than Peck's Spock did.

    But that's a completely subjective opinion. I don't think Peck is awful or a bad actor, I just don't think he's right for Spock. Which is more of a fault of Discovery's showrunners than SNWs. Everyone SNW has cast has been nailing it, along with Mount.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I think what stood out both in Discovery and Picard was that everyone was miserable. No optimism, no hope. That's why when Pike showed up in Discovery it was a breath of fresh air.
    That doesn’t even remotely describe Discovery or Picard. It’s like your projecting your own misery into both shows.

    Discovery is entirely about the redemption of one character. From mutineer to Star Trek captain.

    Picard is about how much work it takes to guarantee that hope. And why even the greatest amongst them still needs to do the work.

    These things are not subtlety implied. They are very, very in your face.

    Are Discovery and Picard the ideal presentations of these stories? No they are not. But neither are the Kelvin stories. Or many other singular bottle episodes produced through the years. But both hope and optimism are present in both.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post

    These things are not subtlety implied. They are very, very in your face.
    Yes, but the story to get to these points is horribly crafted and poorly executed. Having a theme and something to talk about is not enough to create a good story. The Redemption of Burnham is only necessary because she makes decisions that are so mind-boggling dumb that she should have been chucked out of Starfleet right from the start. End of the story. The writers have a good idea for a story, but lack the tools to properly build it up. So you get a story with an interesting theme but shitty execution.

    The same goes for Picard. Great scenes with both Picard and Q end of S2 and Picard and Data's conscience in S1. Credit where credit is due. There's actual emotion and weight to both scenes. They are good when taken in a vacuum. But the way to get to these scenes is utter nonsensical trash that tears down Picard as a character, his accomplishments, and the Federation as a whole. It's bad fan fiction levels of dumb. (Star Trek, often, hasn't been smart, btw. Let's not pretend that non-sensical stories are a new thing.)

    And when Mihalik says everyone is miserable he has a point. It's one thing to have characters with some trauma in their past, but (especially the Picard characters) are defined by their suffering. And by doing so the show devalues what Starfleet officers are supposed to be. Trained professionals.

    Strange New Worlds, on the other hand, gets all the interesting themes Picard and Discovery outline and simply does them well. It's like you're watching two shows from different studios. The difference in the quality of the story and understanding of what Star Trek is about is mind-boggling.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Star Trek, often, hasn't been smart, btw. Let's not pretend that non-sensical stories are a new thing.
    I think it just stings more because of the serialized format.

    A bad trek story is usually sandwhiched between good or even great ones. Most of their overall ramifications are kept small.

    Whereas in these shows each ep relies on the previous ones, and they can easily start dragging things down. Especially when they want to tackle bigger, galaxy-shaping topics.

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