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  1. #241
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    It's one thing to have characters with some trauma in their past, but (especially the Picard characters) are defined by their suffering. And by doing so the show devalues what Starfleet officers are supposed to be. Trained professionals.
    Did you enjoy First Contact? Because that entire movie was about Picard dealing with the trauma of his assimilation. He acts absolutely out of character numerous times due to that trauma and it takes someone screaming in his face about what really matters to get him to screw his head back on right. The entire crew acts entirely unprofessional numerous times, particularly as regards corruption to the timeline and Picard is the worst because he repeatedly lets his personal feelings override what's best for everyone else.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Did you enjoy First Contact? Because that entire movie was about Picard dealing with the trauma of his assimilation. He acts absolutely out of character numerous times due to that trauma and it takes someone screaming in his face about what really matters to get him to screw his head back on right. The entire crew acts entirely unprofessional numerous times, particularly as regards corruption to the timeline and Picard is the worst because he repeatedly lets his personal feelings override what's best for everyone else.
    No, not particularily. That being said, it's the best of the TNG movies, which isn't saying much. And we saw Picard dealing with the Trauma of his assimilation in the Episode 'Family', in a much more Picard way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The characters are not miserable. They have bad things that have happened to them and they work through those bad things. People bitch Raffi being a miserable shit head and drug user on top of that. What does the character need? Work. Purpose. She gets these two things and becomes the person she should be.
    Yes, but why is she living in a trailer taking drugs in the first place, and why does she have to have trauma in the first place? There isn't one character on the show who doesn't have some incredibly serious issues in their past. All the characters are thrown into the dirt (with questionable reasons) so that you can watch them, somehow, pull themselves out of it, with varying success.

    I'm questioning the design process. Sure, given what the characters went through, some of their choices are, somewhat, plausible. What the show needed was someone who was, somewhat, content, if not happy. And for the Starfleet officers to behave like Starfleet officers. Hell, not even Will and Diana are allowed a measure of peace. They had to have a son who died miserably.

    Then again, who cares. Deeply tragic characters resonate well with critics, so Discovery and Picard can remain Depression - a Space Adventure, and whoever likes it can watch that, I'll stick to Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, and ignore that trash.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Yes, but why is she living in a trailer taking drugs in the first place, and why does she have to have trauma in the first place? There isn't one character on the show who doesn't have some incredibly serious issues in their past. All the characters are thrown into the dirt (with questionable reasons) so that you can watch them, somehow, pull themselves out of it, with varying success.

    I'm questioning the design process. Sure, given what the characters went through, some of their choices are, somewhat, plausible. What the show needed was someone who was, somewhat, content, if not happy. And for the Starfleet officers to behave like Starfleet officers. Hell, not even Will and Diana are allowed a measure of peace. They had to have a son who died miserably.

    Then again, who cares. Deeply tragic characters resonate well with critics, so Discovery and Picard can remain Depression - a Space Adventure, and whoever likes it can watch that, I'll stick to Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, and ignore that trash.
    Because life sucks sometimes. Even in the 24th Century. Did you like seeing Sisko and Pike start their respective series in the dirt? Because they totally did. They both got better.

    You're making both out to be much more miserable than they actually are. I find it completely baffling actually.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Because actors, directors, writers, and all kinds of other creative people want to do different things on different shows. If every Trek show was a carbon copy of TOS or TNG then viewers will start tuning out, eventually. As much as I enjoyed Voyager and have heard that Enterprise had some satisfying later seasons they both pretty much put "old" Trek in the grave. The Kelvin films, being quite tonally different, kept the franchise alive and Discovery re-invigorated it despite the wailing of the purists. Discovery, and Picard, brought in new viewers who were looking for something other than TNG-esque morality plays. And with Discovery's success, and then Picard's success, Paramount was free to start greenlighting other types of shows, including a more traditional Strange New Worlds. But make no mistake, there was no way they were just going to do the same old thing all over again, and it almost certainly would not have been very successful.

    People need to figure out for themselves that not every piece of media within a particular franchise is going to be aimed solely at the original audience. Nobody greenlighting these budgets wants to intentionally shrink their audience, by playing it safe, with every new iteration. If you don't like Discovery, don't watch it. If you don't like Book of Boba Fett, don't watch it. If you don't like Ms. Marvel, don't watch it. If you're a big enough audience they will soon make something more to your tastes, anyway.
    More and more viewers are tuning out every season...the quality gets worse and worse. Discovery can't even get low end award nominations...Picard season 2 was bar none the stupidest season of Trek ever...SNW tried to be different but it was the same stupidity from episode 1 and it only just got worse and worse

    Season finale of picard and season premier or snw couldn't even reach top 30 in Canada...less than a half a million viewers. CBS could make a lot of money but they'd rather throw money into a shredder than admit they fucked up Star Trek, but hey no surprise...these are the people who co-own the CW, which has never made a profit in it's almost 2 decade existence.

  5. #245
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    No, not particularily.
    Well, then, at least you're consistent.

    or are you ...?

    Then again, who cares. Deeply tragic characters resonate well with critics, so Discovery and Picard can remain Depression - a Space Adventure, and whoever likes it can watch that, I'll stick to Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, and ignore that trash.
    You do realize that the driving plotline behind season 1 of SNW, and the entire purpose of the first episode and finale, is exploring Pike's trauma over learning of his eventual fate and how he comes to terms with it?

    Pretty much every episode of Trek ever made, or even most media, is characters dealing with some sort of trauma. The Inner Light is Picard experiencing the trauma of an entire destroyed planet. The Menagerie is Spock dealing with his trauma over Pike's fate and trying to sacrifice his life to bring a measure of peace to Pike. Voyager is seven years of trauma from being utterly separated from everything the crew has ever known with no assurance that they'll ever be anything more than interstellar wanderers until their deaths. Year of Hell is ... well, an entire year of hell for Janeway and the crew of Voyager. DS9 begins with Sisko facing his trauma over Wolf 359 and the death of his wife and he spends the entire series coming to terms with that and all of his actions are informed by that trauma. Kira is a survivor of the pillaging, destruction and even rape of her entire planet and species and the things she did to save them and herself.

    I mean, if you don't like trauma in Trek then what have you been watching it for? Cool pew pew space battles?

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    .?



    You do realize that the driving plotline behind season 1 of SNW, and the entire purpose of the first episode and finale, is exploring Pike's trauma over learning of his eventual fate and how he comes to terms with it?
    Wait, I though that was the driving plotline of his character arc, not the show. The show plotline is literally exploring g strange new worlds or am I missing something?

  7. #247
    Dunno, my personal issues with Picard are that I thought it was a very poorly written show (and Patrick Stewart is just too old and feeble). I think I stopped at s1ep6, but I also don't hate watch so I'm perfectly happy to just let it go.

    I think a lot of times when people dont like something they come up with rationalizations afterward and are kinda strange. It's okay to just not like something. You don't even need a reason!

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    No, not particularily. That being said, it's the best of the TNG movies, which isn't saying much. And we saw Picard dealing with the Trauma of his assimilation in the Episode 'Family', in a much more Picard way.
    He dealt with the trauma of his assimilation. But his hatred of the Borg was still there. He dealt with that to some degree in "I, Borg", but just because it didn't come up again in the series didn't mean it wasn't there.
    How joyous to be in such a place! Where phishing is not only allowed, it is encouraged!

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Well, then, at least you're consistent.

    or are you ...?



    You do realize that the driving plotline behind season 1 of SNW, and the entire purpose of the first episode and finale, is exploring Pike's trauma over learning of his eventual fate and how he comes to terms with it?

    Pretty much every episode of Trek ever made, or even most media, is characters dealing with some sort of trauma. The Inner Light is Picard experiencing the trauma of an entire destroyed planet. The Menagerie is Spock dealing with his trauma over Pike's fate and trying to sacrifice his life to bring a measure of peace to Pike. Voyager is seven years of trauma from being utterly separated from everything the crew has ever known with no assurance that they'll ever be anything more than interstellar wanderers until their deaths. Year of Hell is ... well, an entire year of hell for Janeway and the crew of Voyager. DS9 begins with Sisko facing his trauma over Wolf 359 and the death of his wife and he spends the entire series coming to terms with that and all of his actions are informed by that trauma. Kira is a survivor of the pillaging, destruction and even rape of her entire planet and species and the things she did to save them and herself.

    I mean, if you don't like trauma in Trek then what have you been watching it for? Cool pew pew space battles?
    There's no driving plotline behind the first season of SNW. Pike being the main character, somewhat, means that his prime motivation for going back out there and what it means is being emphasized in the Pilot and the Finale. It's not brought up every five minutes, and his actions throughout most of the series aren't defined by his worries over what'll eventually happen to him in the future. His trauma is hinted at, but you're not slapped in the face with it. For most of the season it goes unmentioned. Same goes for the other characters.

    And there are plenty of characters who don't have a sad back story, or some gruesome fate to deal with. Just like TNG, DS9 and Voyager. The show mixes it up. Some of the people have, if you compare it with other members of the crew, rather minor problems to deal with, that are still fun to explore.

    La'an saw her family eaten by the Gorn, and iif we take into account what they made of the Gorn here, holy cow. That's harrowing. In comparison, Uhura struggles with her place in life. A Starfleet Officer who doesn't know if she wants to be in Starfleet. That's a cool take.

    One more?

    Dr M'Benga desperatly searches for a way to save his dying child, and, in the end, doesn't, at least not in the way he wanted. Spock, on the other hand, deals with the issues of a long-distance engagement to T'Pring, and finding his place in human and vulcan society.

    Let's compare to Picard.

    The man himself. Watches Data's daughter being brutally murdered. Also thinks that the extinction of the Romulan species is somehow his fault.

    Agnes Jurati. Has a Tal Shiar agent mind-meld her the memory of a race that was brutally murdered because they made synths. Proceeds to brutally murder her former lover, which somehow goes unpunished.

    Seven of Nine. Gets to recover the ravaged body of a child she deeply cared for who's brutally murdered on screen. Deals with that by vaporizing a bunch of criminals she considers responsible.

    Captain Rios. Struggles with what Starfleet has become because he watched his captain brutally murder two synths under the threat of his ship being blown up, and then take his own life.

    Raffi Musiker. Loses her career because... she had close ties to Picard? She was humiliated for that...? My memory is a bit foggy for that. Anyway, no brutal murder on this one. Just a drug addict and a horribly unprofessional officer. Refreshing, I guess.

    Elnor. Abandoned as a child by Picard. Decapitates a few drifters. Maybe he's supposed to be symbolic for how the entire Romulan race felt abandoned by Picard and turned to violence...?

    Soji. Finds out she's a synth. Proceeds to immediately confirm everyone's greatest fear and decides to wipe out all life in the Galaxy by weird tentacle robot, because some organics can't be trusted, thus proving the Romulans right. Has an attempt on her life by hot Romulan agent dude.

    Will and Diana, live in seclusion after they watched their child die. Are given a measure of peace, still, I'm going to say watching your child die isn't an easy thing to process.

    Did I forget someone?

    All these characters are torn down and have their lives shattered, in various ways. Not one of them has anything akin to a 'normal human problem', except maybe for Raffi.

    I don't mind trauma. But when everyone has a tragic back story, it becomes very boring. It takes away from the issues of other characters. It's like a poor DnD group where every character had a terrible fate. Villager pillaged by Ogres. Parents were eaten by Dragons. God abandoned her entire civilization!

    You cannot have everyone in your story being a downer. Discovery at least tried to rectify this by adding Tig Notaros character. But that's what SNW does so much better. The characters are allowed to have some fun. Yes, their lives suck some times. But it also doesn't. That's the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Because life sucks sometimes. Even in the 24th Century. Did you like seeing Sisko and Pike start their respective series in the dirt? Because they totally did. They both got better.

    You're making both out to be much more miserable than they actually are. I find it completely baffling actually.
    I don't think I'd agree that Sisko started in the dirt, because with all that had happened to him, he still was a professional officer who managed to take care of his child. He was in a rough spot but remained a keen functioning officer. Because that's what Starfleet officers are supposed to be, in the first place, especially seasoned ones like Sisko. Professionals. That doesn't mean that life gets them down some times, but when they wear the uniform, they act the part. Doesn't mean that he didn't have issues to deal with, but he still managed to do his job, and do it well albeit through gritted teeth, and be a responsible father and a friend to the Dax, while getting to know the crew.

    And Pike, while choosing to leave Starfleet, didn't take much to pull himself together. He manages to function, swallow his fears, and move ahead until they come back to haunt him. He has trauma. He's not defined by it.

  10. #250
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Wait, I though that was the driving plotline of his character arc, not the show. The show plotline is literally exploring g strange new worlds or am I missing something?
    You know what, I'll bite on this. Let's say that the first season doesn't actually revolve around Pike dealing with his fate and the trauma of knowing it. Let's look at the episodes themselves.

    1x01 - Well, this episode actually is about Pike's trauma about his future.

    1x02 - This one is about Uhura's trauma over the death of her parents causing her to be unable to attend the university they taught at and her subsequent inability to feel like she belongs anywhere and she ended up running to Starfleet, which she's unsure she even wants to be a part of.

    1x03 - This one is about Una's trauma, having to conceal her genetic modification origins because of Federation regulations, then La'an's trauma when she discovers this over being called abomination as a child because of her relation to the genetically modified Khan. We top it off with the revelation of M'Benga's trauma over the situation of his daughter in the transporter buffer.

    1x04 - This episode deals with La'an's trauma from surviving the Gorn colony, and it informs the Enterprises survival.

    1x05 - Spock's struggle with being half-human, due to the trauma he suffered as a child from other Vulcans. A little bit of Chapel's inability to form long-term relationships, the suggestion being that past events prevent her from doing so i.e. trauma. Also a bit of La'an and Una dealing with their inability to relax and enjoy life, due to their experiences.

    1x06 - A bit of M'Benga and his daughter, keeping this traumatic situation in our minds. The title of the episode literally has the word "suffering" in it, because this episode is about a planet that sacrifices young children to keep their society going, basically "Those Who Walk Away From Omelas". This is not trauma from the past, Pike and crew are traumatized by what happens. Pike rejects the woman he's just expressed love for.

    1x07 - Captain Angel exploits Spock's trauma throughout the episode. Otherwise, it's not that heavy on the trauma.

    1x08 - Holy crap, this episode is the candle on top of M'Benga's trauma-cake. He utterly loses his daughter in the end while having to acknowledge that it was the best thing for her. This situation has been haunting him for years and will inform his actions for the rest of his life.

    1x09 - La'an's Gorn trauma. Uhura's not belonging trauma. Spock's emotional trauma. Oh, and Hemmer sacrificing himself for his crew. That's sure to be referenced in the future as trauma they carry.

    1x10- Wheee, we're back to Pike's future fate trauma!

    Most of the best Trek stories are about awful things and how we have been dealing with them and overcoming them. But, for some reason, people don't like the fact that Discovery not only acknowledges this but talks about it out loud as therapy, as real people. And doesn't pretend the trauma went away at the end of the episode and reset everything to the status quo next week. SNW does the same thing Discovery does. The only difference I can see is that Discovery characters actually shed tears at their sadness and trauma, like real people do.

    There are legitimate complaints to be made of Discovery and Picard, but claiming they are non-stop trauma while the rest of Trek isn't is not one of them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    I don't mind trauma. But when everyone has a tragic back story, it becomes very boring. It takes away from the issues of other characters. It's like a poor DnD group where every character had a terrible fate. Villager pillaged by Ogres. Parents were eaten by Dragons. God abandoned her entire civilization!

    You cannot have everyone in your story being a downer.
    Hmm. I don't think you've paid much attention to the histories of the characters in Star Trek. They all bear scars that inform everything they do. That's kind of the point of characters. Even smart-ass wise-cracking characters have backstories that are interesting or else they just become comedy relief. Jett Reno is funny, but we have no connection to her because being a smart-ass is all she is. Right now, Ortegas is filling that role in SNW. We just don't know enough about her. But every other character on the show is tragic in some way.

    And it was the same in TNG. Geordi dealt with blindness from birth and survived a burning building, Worf was ostracized from Klingon society, Beverly and Wesley lost Jack on Picard's watch, Data doesn't know himself because he's a created being without emotion, Riker's mother died when he was two with the trauma causing estrangement between Will and his father, Troi's father died when she was seven and her older sister drowned and all mention of her was removed by Lwaxana for most of Deanna's life.

    Even when the characters aren't actively exploring their personal trauma for an episode, episodes tend to deal with the trauma of the guest characters.

    Because if everybody is just fine then there's no story to tell, lol. The first episode of TNG is an omnipotent being telling humanity that we're so fucked that we have to prove we have any right to continue existing at all

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    I don't think I'd agree that Sisko started in the dirt, because with all that had happened to him, he still was a professional officer who managed to take care of his child. He was in a rough spot but remained a keen functioning officer. Because that's what Starfleet officers are supposed to be, in the first place, especially seasoned ones like Sisko. Professionals. That doesn't mean that life gets them down some times, but when they wear the uniform, they act the part. Doesn't mean that he didn't have issues to deal with, but he still managed to do his job, and do it well albeit through gritted teeth, and be a responsible father and a friend to the Dax, while getting to know the crew.
    I'll just leave Sisko's own words here for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Sisko
    So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Garak was right about one thing: a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it... Because I can live with it... I can live with it... Computer - erase that entire personal log.
    That's what "Starfleet officers are supposed to be"?

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    You know what, I'll bite on this. Let's say that the first season doesn't actually revolve around Pike dealing with his fate and the trauma of knowing it. Let's look at the episodes themselves.

    1x01 - Well, this episode actually is about Pike's trauma about his future.

    1x02 - This one is about Uhura's trauma over the death of her parents causing her to be unable to attend the university they taught at and her subsequent inability to feel like she belongs anywhere and she ended up running to Starfleet, which she's unsure she even wants to be a part of.

    1x03 - This one is about Una's trauma, having to conceal her genetic modification origins because of Federation regulations, then La'an's trauma when she discovers this over being called abomination as a child because of her relation to the genetically modified Khan. We top it off with the revelation of M'Benga's trauma over the situation of his daughter in the transporter buffer.

    1x04 - This episode deals with La'an's trauma from surviving the Gorn colony, and it informs the Enterprises survival.

    1x05 - Spock's struggle with being half-human, due to the trauma he suffered as a child from other Vulcans. A little bit of Chapel's inability to form long-term relationships, the suggestion being that past events prevent her from doing so i.e. trauma. Also a bit of La'an and Una dealing with their inability to relax and enjoy life, due to their experiences.

    1x06 - A bit of M'Benga and his daughter, keeping this traumatic situation in our minds. The title of the episode literally has the word "suffering" in it, because this episode is about a planet that sacrifices young children to keep their society going, basically "Those Who Walk Away From Omelas". This is not trauma from the past, Pike and crew are traumatized by what happens. Pike rejects the woman he's just expressed love for.

    1x07 - Captain Angel exploits Spock's trauma throughout the episode. Otherwise, it's not that heavy on the trauma.

    1x08 - Holy crap, this episode is the candle on top of M'Benga's trauma-cake. He utterly loses his daughter in the end while having to acknowledge that it was the best thing for her. This situation has been haunting him for years and will inform his actions for the rest of his life.

    1x09 - La'an's Gorn trauma. Uhura's not belonging trauma. Spock's emotional trauma. Oh, and Hemmer sacrificing himself for his crew. That's sure to be referenced in the future as trauma they carry.

    1x10- Wheee, we're back to Pike's future fate trauma!

    Most of the best Trek stories are about awful things and how we have been dealing with them and overcoming them. But, for some reason, people don't like the fact that Discovery not only acknowledges this but talks about it out loud as therapy, as real people. And doesn't pretend the trauma went away at the end of the episode and reset everything to the status quo next week. SNW does the same thing Discovery does. The only difference I can see is that Discovery characters actually shed tears at their sadness and trauma, like real people do.

    There are legitimate complaints to be made of Discovery and Picard, but claiming they are non-stop trauma while the rest of Trek isn't is not one of them.
    I also don't get the intense Discovery hate, I understand Picard, it's bad, and like a broken record. I can understand not liking DIscovery as much beause it feels more Star Warsy than Str trek - but they tried something different. I can see the annoyance of changing federation values with our current diversity /representation spectrum - but I guess if you hate that sort of thing, it's hard to give it a chance.

    Episode 1x08 was also confusing to me, Mbenga letting his daughter go, I can understand it, but i can't help but feel that usually in Star Trek, they would try to save the girl and somehow succeed.. so it felt strange - and I wasn't entirely sold on his decision given the backstory.


    However I do notice you focus on the emotional stuff, which to me compliments the story of what is going on. So it's not jsut action and vents it's also emotions and feelings as they develop the characters - but I would say the story of the plaent r what happens on the ship is the main thin, whiles the emotional stuff makes it feel more real if a bit overdone.

    one thing i didn't like about Discovery, is that most of the people on the bridge after 4 seasons are completely forgettable and you know next to nothing about them. Fine, the major characters aren't necessarily all the bridge members like it has been on previous star trek shows and on SNW, but still, I'd have liked some character focus on some of the others.

    And, all girl or majority girl crews feels and looks weird. You notice it, and you get the feeling it is there for "diversity" sake and our current socio political issues in Hollywood USA than any other real or realistic reason.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    The man himself. Watches Data's daughter being brutally murdered. Also thinks that the extinction of the Romulan species is somehow his fault.

    Agnes Jurati. Has a Tal Shiar agent mind-meld her the memory of a race that was brutally murdered because they made synths. Proceeds to brutally murder her former lover, which somehow goes unpunished.

    Seven of Nine. Gets to recover the ravaged body of a child she deeply cared for who's brutally murdered on screen. Deals with that by vaporizing a bunch of criminals she considers responsible.

    Captain Rios. Struggles with what Starfleet has become because he watched his captain brutally murder two synths under the threat of his ship being blown up, and then take his own life.

    Raffi Musiker. Loses her career because... she had close ties to Picard? She was humiliated for that...? My memory is a bit foggy for that. Anyway, no brutal murder on this one. Just a drug addict and a horribly unprofessional officer. Refreshing, I guess.

    Elnor. Abandoned as a child by Picard. Decapitates a few drifters. Maybe he's supposed to be symbolic for how the entire Romulan race felt abandoned by Picard and turned to violence...?

    Soji. Finds out she's a synth. Proceeds to immediately confirm everyone's greatest fear and decides to wipe out all life in the Galaxy by weird tentacle robot, because some organics can't be trusted, thus proving the Romulans right. Has an attempt on her life by hot Romulan agent dude.

    Will and Diana, live in seclusion after they watched their child die. Are given a measure of peace, still, I'm going to say watching your child die isn't an easy thing to process.

    Did I forget someone?

    All these characters are torn down and have their lives shattered, in various ways. Not one of them has anything akin to a 'normal human problem', except maybe for Raffi.

    I don't mind trauma. But when everyone has a tragic back story, it becomes very boring. It takes away from the issues of other characters. It's like a poor DnD group where every character had a terrible fate. Villager pillaged by Ogres. Parents were eaten by Dragons. God abandoned her entire civilization!

    You cannot have everyone in your story being a downer. Discovery at least tried to rectify this by adding Tig Notaros character. But that's what SNW does so much better. The characters are allowed to have some fun. Yes, their lives suck some times. But it also doesn't. That's the difference.



    I don't think I'd agree that Sisko started in the dirt, because with all that had happened to him, he still was a professional officer who managed to take care of his child. He was in a rough spot but remained a keen functioning officer. Because that's what Starfleet officers are supposed to be, in the first place, especially seasoned ones like Sisko. Professionals. That doesn't mean that life gets them down some times, but when they wear the uniform, they act the part. Doesn't mean that he didn't have issues to deal with, but he still managed to do his job, and do it well albeit through gritted teeth, and be a responsible father and a friend to the Dax, while getting to know the crew.

    And Pike, while choosing to leave Starfleet, didn't take much to pull himself together. He manages to function, swallow his fears, and move ahead until they come back to haunt him. He has trauma. He's not defined by it.
    He doesn't think the near extinction of the Romulan's to be his fault. He knows its the Federation's fault even knowing the intense political rifts it was causing within the Federation. He still feels guilty about the whole thing because that's what a sane person does when witnessing the death of billions.

    She was deemed to be not in her right mind and therefore not criminally culpable.

    Not a member of Starfleet or the Federation and therefore not beholden to their ideals. Her biggest mistake was needing two phaser rifles. Only one is sufficient. Its got a variety of settings.

    Starfleet ain't perfect (and never has been) and sometimes a dude just wants to smoke a cigar in peace.

    Pissed at the Federation for failing with regards to the Romulans. Pissed at Picard for resigning.

    Dude's a fucking monk. He didn't turn to violence. He's just really good at it.

    Nobody knew it was Mechathulhu until it actually got there. Still a dumb idea but that's why Picard S1 is only a middling TNG episode that's 10 hours long.

    Everyone gets to retire at some point.

    Most of us aren't high ranking Starfleet members. Picard got stabbed through the heart twice. There's nothing normal human about him in the slightest.

    Picard had a variety of people who worked through their shit.

    Discovery had Saru, Tilly, Culber. Hell, most of the bridge crew are reasonably normal. Even Stamets isn't really traumatized. He is a prickly science bastard though.

    Sisko's career was teetering on the edge. He also never had to deal with the death's of billions at that point.

    Pike's primary motivation was to help a friend. He found his sense of duty later.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    There are legitimate complaints to be made of Discovery and Picard, but claiming they are non-stop trauma while the rest of Trek isn't is not one of them.





    That's what "Starfleet officers are supposed to be"?
    No, they are non-stop trauma where the characters aren't given the slightest moment of relief, wrapped in terribly executed storylines with terrible plots even for Star Trek standards. It's not the Captain and the navigator hyper-evolved into salamanders levels of dumb, but it's close. Tell me, at which point in the story are the characters in Picard having fun? When Rios shagged Agnes? The five seconds of holding hands seven and raffi had in the wrap-up of S1? The closest Discovery got to that point was when Burnham thought she was stranded alone in the future and would never see her Disc-buddies again.

    See, variety makes good characters. Allow them to be themselves. Laugh, live, party a little, without constant gloom hanging over them. That's just depressing. It will be harder for some characters than others, or rather, It'll be harder to make that convincing.

    And yes. This is what a Starfleet officer is supposed to be. Because, and I'll spell it out for you, since you apparently missed it, he still struggled with it. He still has a guilty conscience. He just accepted that one person sacrificing their principles for their society to survive is acceptable, even if it means said person will be miserable for the rest of their life.

    Also, nice of you to completely skip over several seasons of the story unfolding in DS9 that led to Sisko taking these drastic measures. You said he started in the dirt, which, obviously, was wrong.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Tell me, at which point in the story are the characters in Picard having fun?
    Gotta agree with you here. Part of what makes star trek Star Trek is people having fun. Things like TNG playing poker or La'an and Una doing the Enterprise Bingo. Sorely missing in Discovery and Picard, well done in Strange New Worlds and The Orville.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    That doesn’t even remotely describe Discovery or Picard. It’s like your projecting your own misery into both shows.

    Discovery is entirely about the redemption of one character. From mutineer to Star Trek captain.

    Picard is about how much work it takes to guarantee that hope. And why even the greatest amongst them still needs to do the work.

    These things are not subtlety implied. They are very, very in your face.

    Are Discovery and Picard the ideal presentations of these stories? No they are not. But neither are the Kelvin stories. Or many other singular bottle episodes produced through the years. But both hope and optimism are present in both.
    Aren't they though? I liked picard because it was more... human? But the whole show was quite depressing in its tone.
    In Discovery everyone always has a super duper horrible problem and then cries about it. Literally.

    I never felt any optimism in Discovery. There have been michaels obligatory speaches after she again did something that would have anyone else get kicked from starfleet... but otherwise?

    The episode about the kelpians was... kind optimistic about the future?

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Did you enjoy First Contact? Because that entire movie was about Picard dealing with the trauma of his assimilation. He acts absolutely out of character numerous times due to that trauma and it takes someone screaming in his face about what really matters to get him to screw his head back on right. The entire crew acts entirely unprofessional numerous times, particularly as regards corruption to the timeline and Picard is the worst because he repeatedly lets his personal feelings override what's best for everyone else.
    There is a difference between one character dealing with his issues and no talent hacks that can't actually create decent character so they make everyone either a psycho or suffering. That's NuTrek in a nutshell...everyone is suffering and dealing with a troubled past, in a future that's supposed to be dystopian all these writers know is pain and suffering because it's easy. It takes work and talent to actually write characters that have more than pain defining them...secret hideout just doesn't have any talent...and even when they try it eventually unravels.

    They can't go a single episode without stupidity, and they can't go a single season without it eventually just turning to garbage

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I did not find dedicated Picard thread.

    After completing season 1 of Picard and half way of season 2 - quite honestly, I'm about to throw up. This is no Star Trek, it feels like yet another reanimation project where known and loved characters from great shows/movies 30 years ago are reassembled to make a quick nostalgia buck off their names.

    Can we get a real Star Trek anymore nowadays and not yet another melodrama filled pile of nonsense, where every last character you see on the screen is some sort of emotional trainwreck? I swear, it's as if I'm watching a fucking soap opera action hybrid with sci-fi setting and neither of the 3 parts of this chimera are particularly good.

    It feels like after Voyager, Star Trek ended, aside from maybe odd side show/episode here and there that still delivers the good old.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And yes in the old series they also had plenty feels and emotions, but it never was so overbearing to this extent where it feels like you are trying to pull the characters by their ears through their emotional rollercoaster of insecurities and meltdowns from one episode to the next. And it most certainly wasn't that every fucking face you see on the screen had one kind of psychological emergency or another all the bloody time. It is daunting.
    There definitely were Picard threads, perhaps the OP deleted them.

    Anyway, I agree a hundred percent and think everyone else did also.

    I would strongly recommend strange new worlds, it feels like a star trek series again, a 90s and before star trek series, if you look back on here I think people were saying it's the best first season of star trek they've ever seen.

    I think I thought the first episode was a little preachy but I went into this expecting it to be as shit as Picard and it turned me around 180 degrees.

    Just typing about it now is making me want to watch again

    Did I just reply to an old post? It was on front page lol

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax
    Can we get a real Star Trek anymore nowadays and not yet another melodrama filled pile of nonsense, where every last character you see on the screen is some sort of emotional trainwreck?
    The irony of posting this in a Strange New Worlds thread...

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    The irony of posting this in a Strange New Worlds thread...
    If anything SNW didn’t build up enough drama with Una and Mbenga’s background issues.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoirFaire View Post
    If anything SNW didn’t build up enough drama with Una and Mbenga’s background issues.
    Well, I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion. I suppose dedicating entire episodes to the subject doesn't count as "enough build up" to some people.

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