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  1. #21
    I pugging with discord a thing in the US?
    In Europe it's definitly not (or at least highly unusual), since most people may understand english but can't speak it without a heavy accent.

    Also most often discord is not needed. Just a raidleader that knows how to use raid warnings.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with joining "random discords"
    I mean if someone starts to harass you, block them.
    Voice coordination is infinitely better than no voice coordination.

    "fear of abuse" or whatever is not a reason to not join voice com. If you aren't going to comply, might as well take the boot.

    edit;
    If someone is caught harassing, they will swiftly be kicked out of the raid and discord, this kind of behavior is obviously not tolerated.
    Fear of abuse and/or harassment is absolutely a valid reason. Just because you'd remove people for doing such doesn't mean every group will, PuGs or not.
    "May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce"

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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    In my 15+ years of raid leading (mostly pugs) I have consistently had the most problems with anyone who says this. They are Always the first to rage quit.

    Generally my groups have a couple different skill levels of players, and the groups are usually competent but not completely-overpowering-the-fight-competent.

    It’s frustrating because I hate to turn down qualified players but there’s so many fights where communication is key. Target swaps, dodges, healing CDs, doesn’t matter if a player has killed a few twelve times, if they want to do it the current one they need to be working with the team.

    There’s only one or two other groups of players I’ve had as much trouble with. I’m not going to mention them by name, but they weren’t an issue when I was fighting Ragnaros in vanilla.
    I will assume you are talking about Heroic pugs and below, becuse for Mythic raiding it actually is needed, but those are guild groups that are on voice by default.

    There is simply zero need for voice in HC raids or below. None. Nada.
    A competent player who has DBM and isn't blind will see all the info in front of him at all times.

    The only time voice was mandatory was on Mekkatorque in BfA due to how the fight worked. Nothing like that was ever needed before or after.

    Now, you can say: "But Timmy is blind in his right eye, playing with 1 hand and cannot focus on mechanics" well then, ditch Timmy.
    It's the individual's fault they can't remember mostly 2 or 3 mechanics (or 1 gimmick mechanic) in a single 5-8 minute fight.
    Just because one or two people are mentally slow it doesn't mean comms is needed for competent players.

    Also also, if your argument is "but i cant call out shit otherwise" then you are also wrong.
    You can make macros in raid warning and spam that when needed. Case solved, people always notice.

  4. #24
    I don't see the problem... don't invite them if you require discord.
    It’s frustrating because I hate to turn down qualified players
    It's kind of odd that you come across as if you are blaming them for not accommodating you because you want them in your group.
    If people don't want to join discord... that's perfectly ok. Either you relax on your requirements if you want these qualified players or you both go their separate ways.
    If you lead PUGS i'm sure you've had plenty of people joining your discord, to accommodate YOU even if they aren't exactly thrilled with discord.

    I know because I've done so. Sometimes I just want to pug and sometimes I find a group that requires voice and even if I don't want to I still join if I feel like joining said group. I don't expect them to disband their voice requirement to let me join. It's however up to each and everyone to make that decision. If you don't like who gets excluded with your requirements, change the requirements, otherwise you get the ones who accept them.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-05-07 at 10:33 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan2 View Post
    off topic but I have so much respect for raid leaders that lead pugs. players like you are Blizzards most valuable asset. if Blizzard somehow rewarded pug leaders then LFR would have never been needed and everyone would get a more fulfilling raiding experience. I know I owe every epic experience I've ever had raiding to the person leading the pug. so thank you, Garicasha!
    Well cheers that's one of the nicest things I've ever encountered on mmo-champ!
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    You can always join and mute yourself (or even everyone if youre that confident). But at least, do the only thing someone requires you to when they inv you to their raid group.

    Its extremely disrespectful to join some raid group where they even say that voice com is required- and then just to ignore the only requirement.

    I never inv such people.


    This comes from someone who got few CEs as pug RL.
    So you find it acceptable if someone joins and mutes themselves and everyone in the discord and it's not at all equal to not joining? that's hilarious.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    You can always join and mute yourself (or even everyone if youre that confident). But at least, do the only thing someone requires you to when they inv you to their raid group.

    Its extremely disrespectful to join some raid group where they even say that voice com is required- and then just to ignore the only requirement.

    I never inv such people.


    This comes from someone who got few CEs as pug RL.
    If the people are exclusively talking about the fight in Discord, I’m game.

    If they’re subjecting me to their internal guild “banter”? I’ll just mute myself and them and do the fight. If I get booted, I get booted. But I’m too old to have the patience to listen to awkward egos at play.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Oh I know, I just don't pug raids personally. Easier to just do keys and not worry about getting creeped on
    Because everyone gets creeped on. Get over it, you're not that unique. Mute yourself and nobody knows or cares about you. You're just another player in the 20 man group.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Oh I know, I just don't pug raids personally. Easier to just do keys and not worry about getting creeped on
    you do know the difference between listening and announcing yourself for attention? maybe you don't
    10 reports = instant ban without GM review (people need to be in different guilds or you will need more reports)
    you can organize a 11th person in your discord to provoke the person you want banned then report for literary no real reason... anything that can be considered "toxic" is a valid reason for the ban to stay on the account and will not be removed
    https://youtu.be/OcSiCgFDYhY

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    I will assume you are talking about Heroic pugs and below, becuse for Mythic raiding it actually is needed, but those are guild groups that are on voice by default.

    There is simply zero need for voice in HC raids or below. None. Nada.
    A competent player who has DBM and isn't blind will see all the info in front of him at all times.

    The only time voice was mandatory was on Mekkatorque in BfA due to how the fight worked. Nothing like that was ever needed before or after.

    Now, you can say: "But Timmy is blind in his right eye, playing with 1 hand and cannot focus on mechanics" well then, ditch Timmy.
    It's the individual's fault they can't remember mostly 2 or 3 mechanics (or 1 gimmick mechanic) in a single 5-8 minute fight.
    Just because one or two people are mentally slow it doesn't mean comms is needed for competent players.

    Also also, if your argument is "but i cant call out shit otherwise" then you are also wrong.
    You can make macros in raid warning and spam that when needed. Case solved, people always notice.
    Eh, there's flaws in that logic, the main one being people learn/respond differently. As a slight example, before I got eye surgery my eyesight was terrible, and I ended up learning and absorbing stuff WAY better when I heard it or when it was spoken. While I had a physical issue that caused me to lean this way, for others it's naturally this way. It wasn't that rare even in my hardcore raiding days where I was the minority in my raids with having game sound on, because I could hear things happening before I could visually process it. All my custom-made weakauras had custom sounds because I would respond faster to hearing a signal/command than seeing it.

    In this respect, Discord can be used as a tool for those that respond better to audio cues. This can be especially true when it comes to learning fights, because trying to process what's visually going on while reading other things (such as raid warnings, chat, etc.) is a lot harder than people think. There's even been studies done on the people who swear up and down that they can multitask several things at once, and it turns out it's vary rarely the case... it's more akin to sequential processing, where you have to keep jumping to each thing individually and end up not absorbing a lot of information in the process (basically, it's a sort of information blindness... i.e. you think you're multitasking well because you don't notice all the information you aren't absorbing).

    If you've been raiding long enough at any level, included top 50-100 raiding, it's extremely obvious that everyone learns at different speeds and with different methods. If you watch closely enough, you can eventually start picking out people in the RWF that learn a lot slower or differently than their counterparts. That slow learner may still be better than your average raider, the point is that there's going to be a disparity between raiders at any skill level. Heck, I'd say this is one of the main reasons people guild hop: they recognize that they potentially learn a lot faster than their current guild as a whole or some members, and the individual is frustrated because they're already mindless doing the fight while others learn. However, what's commonly misconstrued is that the slower learners are just bad... but it's similar to rigid school education systems: sometimes the individual are only taught one way to do things, or are not exposed to a learning process that fits them.

    One of my favorite jobs in one of my hardcore raiding guilds was being the guy who found out why people were screwing up and how to fix it. Like who I'm quoting, many people have a preconceived notion based upon their perspective and automatically discount or throw out people based upon it. I guess it helps that the guild leader was a doctor who was used to dealing with patients with different strengths/weaknesses, as I haven't seen this sort of role in many other guilds. However, sometimes just a little correction or guidance makes all the difference. You'd be amazed at how many people I've 'rehabilitated' in WoW raiding by just creating custom weakauras based upon customized sound cues, said individuals going from slow/mediocre to reliable or even amazing. Again, not everyone learns or efficiently processes information the same way, and sometimes a little understanding and investigation goes a long way towards getting people to improve.

    As a slight aside, Blizz has actually gotten better over the years adding audio cues to the encounters to let you know when things happen... but most people probably haven't even noticed this. I can't remember the specific encounter, but I remember people were struggling because the bossmods were inaccurate (as were the weakauras since there was no reliable trigger) for a certain mechanic... but I always called it out over Discord correctly, which confused the hell out of people. When asked how I did it, I told them straight-up that Blizz had put in an audio cue for when it happens, but most people had their game sound turned off or just tuned out anything audio-related. While this didn't lead to a rash movement towards listening for the cue for most of the raiders (some did pick up on it and learned faster), I did become the person that did all the call-outs exactly in Discord because my auditory-based way of raiding was superior than the visual option.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2022-05-07 at 01:21 PM.
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  11. #31
    I let this slide sometimes, but it depends on the fight/raid. Even still most of my guild were good at communicating and we didn't trash up comms with small talk. I also have a strict push to talk rule because I don't want to hear you ignoring your children midraid.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    Because everyone gets creeped on. Get over it, you're not that unique. Mute yourself and nobody knows or cares about you. You're just another player in the 20 man group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    you do know the difference between listening and announcing yourself for attention? maybe you don't
    And in exhibit A and B of victim blaming comes two posts that leap to conclusions and make assumptions to try to push the idea that it's the person's fault for being creeped on, without knowing literally anything about the situations or reasoning why it was said!

  13. #33
    Bloodsail Admiral Konteil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    I would join discord or the good old ventrilo(old days) if it was required. joined, muted. Sometimes I would talk, most often not. I join for the sake of it and at the very least I get all info directly.

    If ppl are annoying ie talking alot or hear the sound of keyboard clicks, I mute them all except raid leader.
    pretty much. joining disc isnt really that big a deal. i pug a raid a week on classic. mostly cause my guild cant fill 25 mans at moment. i just keep RL and MT open for MD shit and im gold.
    “Listen, three eyes,” he said, “don’t you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.”

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    Its not about telling you who to heal, it's about calling out a raid cd, it's about telling X player to go to Y position for Z mechanic, which a lot of the time is to be called on the spot. All your 15 years of healing experience won't help you telepathically know which attack you are to soak, or which player to dispel... i mean the list goes on and on.

    Judging by your argument, assuming that all voice com is for is for telling the healer who to heal, i'll assume you don't do much end game content. "im healer so i dont do mechanics, just heal who takes damage". LFR mentality
    Nonsense. You don't call out raidwide healing cooldowns at complete random every single fight, unless you're a control freak trying to waste everyones time. Which player to dispell? What to soak? Have you even played this game before? Say Rygelon for example. You think the raid lead just shouts 19-29 names every single try, telling them which circle they go to? If you need handholding for basic mechanics every single pull, then congrats. Not everyone does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

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  15. #35
    I don't see the problem... don't invite them if you require discord.
    Well here's the situation

    Was running a heroic boss one of the four last ones
    Been putting group together for 45 min or so, had checked qualifications and parses reasonably but could NOT find a third healer to save my life. Had waited like 10 minutes.
    273+ healer with exp queues up, everyone can see it in LFD, run is listed as requiring discord, guy joins, gets summons, says he doesn't wanna join discord blah blah blah my main has done mythic SylvanaJailerNathrius.

    So my options were kinda limited.

    Then he screwed up a mechanic and left after the wipe (we didn't even call him on it).

    And that story has happened to me a lot over the years. Including a second individual in that specific run.

    And don't get me wrong these players usually parse well, but if you don't one-shot everything they're GONE the next pull. And usually tell off the raid as they leave.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    Well here's the situation

    Was running a heroic boss one of the four last ones
    Been putting group together for 45 min or so, had checked qualifications and parses reasonably but could NOT find a third healer to save my life. Had waited like 10 minutes.
    273+ healer with exp queues up, everyone can see it in LFD, run is listed as requiring discord, guy joins, gets summons, says he doesn't wanna join discord blah blah blah my main has done mythic SylvanaJailerNathrius.

    So my options were kinda limited.

    Then he screwed up a mechanic and left after the wipe (we didn't even call him on it).

    And that story has happened to me a lot over the years. Including a second individual in that specific run.

    And don't get me wrong these players usually parse well, but if you don't one-shot everything they're GONE the next pull. And usually tell off the raid as they leave.
    Alot of people expect getting raids/dungeons to be cleared on the first try. Pugs have never been a good place for lots of wipes. These days ppl just leave after 1 wipe. One of the reasons I dont really bother with pug raiding anymore. it just falls apart the second a minor inconviniense occur.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Konteil View Post
    pretty much. joining disc isnt really that big a deal. i pug a raid a week on classic. mostly cause my guild cant fill 25 mans at moment. i just keep RL and MT open for MD shit and im gold.
    yeah its not much more than that required.

    Almost all of the time, raid leaders never expect you to talk. They just want everyone there so its easier to communicate. Its two different things typing or talking when being a raid leader.

    So instead of wall of text before, during & after bosses its much much better to just talk.

    If someone DEMANDS that you speak, thats just very weird.

  17. #37
    Meeh, I like discord. Bit more fun and social + makes shit easier. I just raid in TBCC only etc, so you dont need it as much, but I still prefer it.

    Also the hole girl/creep thing; I hope it just blown out of proportion, but I guess it aint since it keeps being brought up like some dead old meme.
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  18. #38
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    I used to be in the "no voice comm" crowd. Today I run high-end keys and I realize how annoying and meaningless it is to deprive oneself of such an efficient way to say things quickly. This is especially true in an environment like M+, where tactics may vary a lot and you must adapt to different situations.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    And in exhibit A and B of victim blaming comes two posts that leap to conclusions and make assumptions to try to push the idea that it's the person's fault for being creeped on, without knowing literally anything about the situations or reasoning why it was said!
    Victim mentality is something you should try and fix

    there are things you can do choices you can make to fix the "issues" you have

    "most" players say nothing during the whole raid

    refusing to use discord when it makes the content easier in raids that can still cause wipes is just as utterly stupid just as stupid as player's saying they don't want to use DBM

    yes players who refuse to use DBM or another similar addon do exist and are just as stupid


    stupid: having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
    10 reports = instant ban without GM review (people need to be in different guilds or you will need more reports)
    you can organize a 11th person in your discord to provoke the person you want banned then report for literary no real reason... anything that can be considered "toxic" is a valid reason for the ban to stay on the account and will not be removed
    https://youtu.be/OcSiCgFDYhY

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    It makes perfect sense but I wouldn't be caught dead joining a strange Discord. Not sure how people do it, honestly!
    why is it any different from joining a ventrillo server or teamspeak or mumble server back in the day? if you're concerned about privacy, discord supports alt accounts now and you can make an alt account with no info on it

    if you're that hateful for voice comms, just join one of those guilds for deaf people that never use voice comms but use a billion macros/WA's in order to communicate critical info that is not already in place with bossmods

    - - - Updated - - -

    also, why don't people just use ingame voice comms? I don't know why this isn't used more. It's not like raid leaders/officers need advanced settings like priority microphone, muting, etc, just for pugs, and if someone is clicky-clacking or blowing in their mic, you can always /ignore them.
    Last edited by Ssateneth; 2022-05-07 at 02:48 PM.

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