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  1. #61
    Requiring comms is 100% your prerogative as raid leader, but on general principle if I did require them they weren't social. Many people, especially pugs, just aren't into that and it made keeping a clear line of communication difficult anyway with rando anal joke #435 being told as we're trying to facilitate a focus switch or recover when the assigned cc needs changed.
    For a guild group it's entirely different of course, but with puggles I'd just ask people to use another call for banter and keep the raid one for raiding. Only ran into an issue with this once from the typical entitled chad upset when he got muted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    No I don't thnk so

    I've done the LAN days, done the days when we used to gather at friends houses with out PCs and consoles, play counter strike and starcraft co-op, been to the internet cafes in the days of WC3 and vanilla wow when I had a dial up connection. Voice comms was a novelty back in the day and many people were keen to get on with their shitty mics. Those days are gone

    Nowadays, I'm not interested in connecting with people I don't know over voice chat. Gaming isn't the niche it once was and everyone was excited by meeting or talking to other like-minded people in a video game. I'm generally only OK being in voice chat with people I know and most of the time I'm playing games, I'm usually listening to some music or a podcast or something, and I'm really not interested in stopping what I'm doing so someone can try to optimise a +15 key.
    I think we're talking about a much different culture here, like Korea. Can't think of anyplace outside of that or southeast asia that have so many cyber cafes .
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    As someone who has been raid leader for many pugs (albeit not in awhile), a regular team, and as someone who pugs a lot, this issue has a lot of sides to it.

    There are a lot of fights that absolutely can be winged and don't require voice calls if people know the fights and are good at watching timers. There are also a lot of fights that highly benefit from the ability to quickly communicate, either due to their mechanics or to help adapt when things don't go as planned. I think requiring comms for the latter is fine, and requesting it for the former is okay, but I also think it's okay if people don't want to. There will occasionally be issues from it, but overall it should largely go fine.

    I have a very mixed relationship with voice comms. Yes, it is extremely useful in raid and higher keystones, and I cannot overstate its value in many contexts. However, I have a lot of problems with its overuse. I find chatting distracting, I find overcalling stuff tends to make me tune out, and nothing grates on me more than people talking over each other. I also rely very heavily on audio cues for things, and people talking can make those harder to hear. And, frankly, some times I just don't want to deal with the social dynamics and awkwardness of using voice with a bunch of strangers who I might find obnoxious or inappropriate. Yes, that is a me problem, but it is a problem nonetheless. A lot of groups absolutely use voice for more than bare bones raid callouts, even if they promise that is the only purpose, which means the negatives far outweigh the positives for me.

    Unless I'm pugging a challenging boss, I will specifically look for raid listings that aren't requiring voice chat. If I join a raid and then they tell me I need to be in voice chat (but didn't put it in the listing), I would absolutely be the person that says "I know the fights, I don't need it." I would probably leave if they pushed on it. [note: if it's required, please fucking put it in the listing] Buuuut I also probably would be a lot less likely to PuG the kind of bosses where voice chat is borderline essential because those almost always go very poorly and you just end up in a cycle of wipe > spend 15minutes replacing the people that left > repeat, getting very few attempts in in a very large amount of time.

    That said, after all that: when I led regular weekly PuGs, we used voice comms. I would have probably been okay with one of the regular attendees not using voice, but would have required it from the randoms. So :shrug:
    So...wait a minute. It's a problem when people demand from YOU to join voice chat for PUG raids, but you don't see an issue having that requirement when YOU lead?

    Sounds...inconsistent my dude. Very inconsistent.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    So...wait a minute. It's a problem when people demand from YOU to join voice chat for PUG raids, but you don't see an issue having that requirement when YOU lead?

    Sounds...inconsistent my dude. Very inconsistent.
    No. I think my post had a little more nuance than that.

    It's absolutely not a problem if people demand their raid members use voice chat; I just won't join those groups most of the time. People are welcome to set whatever requirements they want, but they have to understand the trade off is less people to choose from. Likewise, because I don't enjoy using voice chat when I dont find it necessary, but the compromise is that I have less options to pick from in the group finder.

    I required voice chat when I led PuG raids (and I require it with my regular team as well) because it made things easier, but if that turns people away then fine. That's the tradeoff.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    No. I think my post had a little more nuance than that.

    It's absolutely not a problem if people demand their raid members use voice chat; I just won't join those groups most of the time. People are welcome to set whatever requirements they want, but they have to understand the trade off is less people to choose from. Likewise, because I don't enjoy using voice chat when I dont find it necessary, but the compromise is that I have less options to pick from in the group finder.

    I required voice chat when I led PuG raids (and I require it with my regular team as well) because it made things easier, but if that turns people away then fine. That's the tradeoff.
    All the "nuance" you describe is the stuff I ignored to reach the bottom line. You enjoy raiding with voice coms for your regular team, you enjoy using voice coms when YOU lead a raid, you have an issue when people ask YOU to join disc for THEIR raids. That's the pure, fluff-less version of what you're saying. Just pointing out the inconsistency is all.

    Then again, I rarely PUG, and when I do, I'm leading the raid and require people to be on voice comms...because that's how I've raided since Vanilla from the age of 13. It's literally how it's hard-wired in my brain: you raid, you need comms.

    Same applies for Arena - I started playing arena 2's with my best mate from highschool, we literally sat next to each other at the net cafes and talked throughout the whole match. "I'm stunning now, keep an eye out for the healer" "healer is kicked now's our chance man" "ok I'm popping trinket" "Priest is casting Im blinding" "ok Ill cyclone after the blind" "he trinketed the blind dude" "Ok im on it" "Nice Im killing the mage, he's dead" "Priest feared me, try to get the restealth" etc and so forth.

    The real question shouldn't be "Why do people not join random discords" it's "How the hell do people even do challenging content with their mouths shut and 0 relaying of vital information to your teammates?"

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    If the first thing you have to say to someone that's worried about being creeped on (which usually means they've had to deal with it before) is start telling them to change, that's victim blaming.
    you cant be creeped on if you quit the game
    you cant be creeped on if you don't interact with others
    you cant be creeped on if you don't join groups
    you cant be creeped on if you don't join public groups
    you cant be creeped on if you don't join discord
    you cant be creeped on if you don't talk in discord
    you cant be creeped on if you don't bring attention to yourself
    you cant be creeped on if you don't act like a ho
    you cant be creeped on if you don't creep on other people first

    there are lines that exist within reality
    going from the last line to the first line is unrealistic
    there are possible solutions within the lines in-between

    you seem to want to take all power away from your "so called" victim why would you want to do that
    you are doing harm by doing something like that

    people like you will hopefully someday stop promoting victim mentality

    i have lead thousands of raids literality thousands i gave up on guilds almost a decade ago there was to much greed and drama
    i enjoy helping people learn rather more then doing the content i have a lot of experience most of it in heroic raids some in normal raids when new content first comes out and almost none in mythic raids

    in my time i have met many people who harm themselves and people like you make the problem worse

    i have never seen a raid that requires players to use their mic only join discord to make the content easier
    im sure some have existed but within my own experience the more people speaking the less valuable discord becomes (people can listen in discord and respond via text most people do this)
    Last edited by Daish; 2022-05-09 at 04:26 AM.
    10 reports = instant ban without GM review (people need to be in different guilds or you will need more reports)
    you can organize a 11th person in your discord to provoke the person you want banned then report for literary no real reason... anything that can be considered "toxic" is a valid reason for the ban to stay on the account and will not be removed
    https://youtu.be/OcSiCgFDYhY

  6. #66
    The raid leader decides. If you don't like it then you put in the effort to make your own raid. Beggars can't be choosers.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    you cant be creeped on if you quit the game
    you cant be creeped on if you don't interact with others
    you cant be creeped on if you don't join groups
    you cant be creeped on if you don't join public groups
    you cant be creeped on if you don't join discord
    you cant be creeped on if you don't talk in discord
    you cant be creeped on if you don't bring attention to yourself
    you cant be creeped on if you don't act like a ho
    you cant be creeped on if you don't creep on other people first

    there are lines that exist within reality
    going from the last line to the first line is unrealistic
    there are possible solutions within the lines in-between

    you seem to want to take all power away from your "so called" victim why would you want to do that
    you are doing harm by doing something like that

    people like you will hopefully someday stop promoting victim mentality

    i have lead thousands of raids literality thousands i gave up on guilds almost a decade ago there was to much greed and drama
    i enjoy helping people learn rather more then doing the content i have a lot of experience most of it in heroic raids some in normal raids when new content first comes out and almost none in mythic raids

    in my time i have met many people who harm themselves and people like you make the problem worse
    That's a lot of word salad for saying literally nothing but victim blaming again.

    You are telling someone to not enjoy themselves because OTHERS can't control themselves? Get over yourself, man. "Don't act like a ho"? "Don't creep on other people first"? Do you seriously believe that what you're saying has any basis in reality lol. That's LITERALLY victim blaming. Trying to look for any reason its their fault instead of the person acting out of line.

    Like, come on my guy, I had someone start hitting on me for standing near a summoning stone waiting for friends. And I'm a DUDE. Get a reality check.

    Actual advice would be along the lines of enable privacy filters so you don't get DMs, create throwaway accounts for pugging so you don't have to deal with the people after. Things like that. You have a weird view if you think that's "taking away power" when all your "solutions" are basically "Lock yourself in a cabin in the woods and don't ever interact with a soul".
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2022-05-09 at 04:30 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    All the "nuance" you describe is the stuff I ignored to reach the bottom line. You enjoy raiding with voice coms for your regular team, you enjoy using voice coms when YOU lead a raid, you have an issue when people ask YOU to join disc for THEIR raids. That's the pure, fluff-less version of what you're saying. Just pointing out the inconsistency is all.
    I mean, you ignoring what I write is a you problem, not a me problem. The entire point of my post was that it isn't a black and white issue and there are a lot of layers to the use of voice chat.

    And no, I don't particularly enjoy voice comms in any context. I use them when I lead raids because I think they are a necessary evil on certain fights and on progression, but I also theoretically have control over a lot of the downsides of voice in that context. I can remove people that are inappropriate, I can tell people not to chat during combat, etc. I don't have that power when I am joining a group of randoms, and those things often end up being a big problem in those groups. There is also a world of difference between a pug farm fight and a progression-oriented group of regulars, both in terms of necessity but also the atmosphere of the voice chat.

    I think it would be inconsistent to say it is wrong to mandate voice chat, but then turn around and require voice chat, but I'm not making any value judgement for people requiring it and I'm not saying there is a "right" answer there. I personally don't like using it when I don't have to, so I will often avoid signing up for raids for which it is mandatory, if it is a context in which it doesn't seem necessary.

    The real question shouldn't be "Why do people not join random discords" it's "How the hell do people even do challenging content with their mouths shut and 0 relaying of vital information to your teammates?"
    I think the assumption that people are PuGing "challenging content" is part of the problem. The context in which the OP is going to see the scenario he's talking about is people who are trying to join fast, farm pugs for fights they've killed before; content they don't consider challenging. That's why they are saying they know the fights, and why they don't need voice comms. Not all raiding is created equal in terms of difficulty, and there are absolutely plenty of fights in lower difficulties that can go just fine without people being able to speak to each other.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    I'm not joining a discord to talk to randos. It's unnecessary.

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    Why would you get creeped on?
    I can tell by your attititude, you are either always last in dps/hps or die to easy mechanics. No one who is actually good says stutt like that

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    That's a lot of word salad for saying literally nothing but victim blaming again.

    You are telling someone to not enjoy themselves because OTHERS can't control themselves? Get over yourself, man. "Don't act like a ho"? "Don't creep on other people first"? Do you seriously believe that what you're saying has any basis in reality lol. That's LITERALLY victim blaming. Trying to look for any reason its their fault instead of the person acting out of line.

    Like, come on my guy, I had someone start hitting on me for standing near a summoning stone waiting for friends. And I'm a DUDE. Get a reality check.
    you have rejected reality sad...
    10 reports = instant ban without GM review (people need to be in different guilds or you will need more reports)
    you can organize a 11th person in your discord to provoke the person you want banned then report for literary no real reason... anything that can be considered "toxic" is a valid reason for the ban to stay on the account and will not be removed
    https://youtu.be/OcSiCgFDYhY

  11. #71
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    Yeah I don't understand the argument at all. Asking people to join discords doesn't mean you have to talk in discord. If it's an issue you have a few options. For one you can just choose not to join those groups, or alternatively you can just mute yourself. I've never seen these groups require people to talk.

    I realize that a lot of people are socially awkward, but it's even more disrespectful in my eyes to join a group and try to skirt by one of the only requirements the group is asking you to do.

    Even when I play FF14 (and boy are there a lot of socially awkward people there too) and pug savage raids it's a similar thing. I've seen a few discord requirements while pugging savage compared to WoW, but most of those groups list notes about current progression expecting you to be of similar progress when attempting to join the group. Just like WoW, some people try to skirt this by not looking at videos and it becomes painfully obvious after a wipe or two. When this happens people will be pretty passive aggressive and simply remake the group around said person, and try again.

    The above is something I totally understand, although in some cases it's just somebody fucking up rather than not knowing the mechanic. But I ask, do you blame people who pug and set requirements? In FF14 joining a non-learning group that's 3/4 through the encounter without having any experience makes you the asshole. If you're super confident and spent loads of time preparing without having the experience you can probably speed run your way through without experience, but that's far from t he norm. WoW is the same way and asking for discord for on the fly calls (which is frequent in WoW) or just getting everybody on the same page shouldn't really be unexpected.

    At the end of the day just don't sign up for groups if you can't follow the rules set out. I've joined sketchy discords where people are uncomfortable as fuck in discord and if that's the case I just leave. It's not like people are shackling you down and/or forcing you to talk lol.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    you have rejected reality sad...
    Reality is horny people online will lust over anything with any chance given.

    No one should be forced to act a certain way just because others can't behave themselves. Or are you going to say next that everyone should have every inch of their skin covered too? It's a silly argument that I'm not sure how you're missing that you're just falling into victim blaming.

  13. #73
    When I played classic all I did was pug. Lots of random discords I joined. Never said a word just did my stuff and had fun. I did those fights a bunch and still got in discord when asked, if you are a chick and scared of being creeped on just don’t talk..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Reality is horny people online will lust over anything with any chance given.

    No one should be forced to act a certain way just because others can't behave themselves. Or are you going to say next that everyone should have every inch of their skin covered too? It's a silly argument that I'm not sure how you're missing that you're just falling into victim blaming.
    Sort of agree but still it is the Internet and there are safe ways to go about talking with strangers online. You don’t let children go around in chat rooms cause of the danger, cause they don’t know any better. An adult should know the risks involved with internet interactions.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Nonsense. You don't call out raidwide healing cooldowns at complete random every single fight, unless you're a control freak trying to waste everyones time. Which player to dispell? What to soak? Have you even played this game before? Say Rygelon for example. You think the raid lead just shouts 19-29 names every single try, telling them which circle they go to? If you need handholding for basic mechanics every single pull, then congrats. Not everyone does.
    You call out raid cd when things go south. Tank missed a taunt and the other tank needs an external cd to survive. Something no one apart from the tank who fucked up can tell people. For Rygalon, raid lead can call where circles are remaining, in which order to kill circles, which circles to keep alive because the circles despawn after 10 seconds and new people get the debuff before new sparks spawn.

    If everyone knows what to do, you don't need coms but in most pugs things go south. People don't know the mechanics 100% or someone just fucked up. With coms you can intervene and save the pull, without it's a wipe. In the Anduin fight, if someone dies you need to tell people on the fly who goes down and who stays up, or in the Dausegne fight who has to soak with a differnt group and if a cd has to be used because they're soaking with fewer people. There are so many scuffed runs where a good call from a raidlead can save the fight.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    ]Sort of agree but still it is the Internet and there are safe ways to go about talking with strangers online. You don’t let children go around in chat rooms cause of the danger, cause they don’t know any better. An adult should know the risks involved with internet interactions.
    There's definitely precautions that should be taken. Avoiding the situation completely is the one that the original poster said is why they don't join discord servers.

    Privacy settings is what I suggested. And another person said throwaway accounts.

    "Don't act like a ho", as said a bit earlier though, is just saying the person must have done something to cause it, which is where I draw the line. Like I said, I've done nothing before as a guy even but play the game, and someone started to whisper me in a rather inappropriate way.

  16. #76
    One thing coming out of this is that I tend to apply my situation, which is me raid leading and voice comms for in-fight callouts. Generally there’s not much chatter in my runs and I’ll mute anyone not on Push to Talk quickly.

    If I join randoms and they’re talking stupid stuff I turn em way down.

    Still there’s a lot of elitism and lack of empathy here. Maybe that dude running a +15 is a 30 yo mom that doesn’t play a lot of video games, maybe not the best twitch gaming skills, and just wants to strategize a bit to compensate. And people are all like”I can run +35s I’m not running with bads herpy derp” and like actually taking offense to the fact that someone is struggling with something they find easy.

    Now I’m guilty of elitism quite a bit, but the lack of compassion for people at different levels of progression is kind of toxic online.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    An adult should know the risks involved with internet interactions.
    Well, yes. This entire tangent conversation started because someone said they avoided voice chat with strangers so they didn't have to worry about weirdos. This wasn't about someone being surprised or unaware of the risk, it was about them modifying their behaviour to minimise it.

    In any case, it's kinda a derail to the topic anyway.
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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNameForSmurfingExTee View Post
    Funny how on the one hand, people complaint that WoW is getting a "lone wolf" mmo without any socializing and on the other hand, people complain about a socializing aspect of the game
    It's almost as if different people have different opinions.
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  19. #79
    Reminds me of the Kungen clip where he says "Best players don't need a raid leader. For example, I don't need anyone to tell me what to do." and then in the next clip he is failing miserably on several simple mechanics and bosses.

    Edit for those who want to laugh:
    https://youtu.be/3BrfQxkAXZc
    Last edited by facefist; 2022-05-10 at 05:23 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Nonsense. You don't call out raidwide healing cooldowns at complete random every single fight, unless you're a control freak trying to waste everyones time. Which player to dispell? What to soak? Have you even played this game before? Say Rygelon for example. You think the raid lead just shouts 19-29 names every single try, telling them which circle they go to? If you need handholding for basic mechanics every single pull, then congrats. Not everyone does.
    Nonsense. Again, spewing proof that you don't do content past lfr.

    It's not about telling every player to go into their circle the reset the debuff from rygelon, it's about telling healer 1 to use his cd on the first big aoe in p2 and then healer 2 to use his on the second. It's about calling the groups that go to reset on anduin. It's about knowing that healer X died in jailer so shaman Y is to use his wind rush totem instead when moving out of the aoe circle.

    You are boiling it down to trivial mechanics and assume you are better than everyone else in the raid because YOU know when you are supposed to use your huge 8 minute cd, probably overlapping it with the other 3 pug healers using their tranquility and spirit link at the same time, and then blaming the other guy for dying because he already use his defensive cd.

    You would swiftly be uninvited from my group.
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