“I know the fight I don’t need Discord”

[dragonflight10]

So much bullshit in this post.

1. Part of WoW is playing with other people, talking to them, human beings are known for making small talk during downtime. If you actually socialized with humans, you'd know this and you're either comfortable with it, or you're not. Get over yourself. Secondly, I met some great people in pugs, people that eventually became lifelong guildies. Try it sometime, maybe you wont have to pug so much if you actually starting talking.

3. You do need to communication. Lords of Dread Among Us phase disagrees with you. If you are a healer, and you're not in comms, you may get called for an external on a tank. Or to brez somebody if you have a brez class. There are so many variables, it just makes sense to be available. It cannot be quickly posted in chat if you need a barkskin in less than 2 seconds. This ignorance is a true sign that you think your shit doesn't stink.

So, so many people in pugs don't seem to grasp the need to communication in an MMO. They really don't belong here, go play Diablo.

Man the guy you quoted is so delusional, he keeps mentions that WA is leading
sounds like he raided 2 expansions ago and got carried hard

[Agall]

I've pugged raids since wotlk, and I find the average player to be generally incompetent. I'm the kind of player who doesn't use addons, because they're unnecessary in wod+ era of WoW. Yes some fights 'require' communication and it doesn't need to be voice (Lords of Dread being a current example) and some of those can be mitigated by weakauras or such. The first and only time I used something like weakaura was for AOTC Azshara, and it was only because most groups had some addon that would tell them who didn't have the weakaura for it. Otherwise I was 100% handling that mechanic without fault... When you're conditioned to pay attention to everything, something screaming at you to pay attention to it is just unnecessary noise and distracting. Everything now has a visible/audible queue and is on fixed timers/transitions (health based as example) and things like addons/voice are there to compensate for inadequacies.
For a lot of people they feel like a requirement, but that's the 'average player' I'm referring to. Its not hard to differentiate who is considered average and above average, sometimes that's natural skill, or just playing the game enough over 15 years and actually trying to get better.
Even high end arenas/rbgs don't require voice since high xp arena/rbg players (+2700xp) eventually start playing pvp to such a formula that its almost like a raid boss. RBGS is sort of a stretch, though I've participated in multiple full 2700xp/r1/glad/hero teams this expansion winning at 2700mmr with no voice so. Turns out when everyone knows what to do, no one has to actively reinforce to others what they're supposed to be doing.

Background: I'm a PVPer who enjoys PVE content when I want to experience the other half of the game or want specific rewards. Raiding and PVP are technically the same thing, biggest variable is the amount of variables (mostly the human one). A raid fight is like dancing, everything has fixed timers and rotations, Arenas/RBGS aren't much different, its just there's about 100x more variables. The >2700xp multi r1/gladiators/heroes eventually get to the point where everyone just knows what to do without requiring communications, just like a raid boss's mechanics, once you've learned all the variables. One of the hardest parts of PVP is when you get competent unskilled players, because they're unlikely to play in the 'optimal' way, sometimes it can actually win the match against substantially better players (just because its different doesn't mean its bad, unless its just actually a bad play).

[ONCHEhap]

If I join a party that doesn't explicitly say that comms are required, I'll probably won't join discord (sometimes I will,but usually not).

However if I join a party with comms required, I'll join discord. If you join a party that explicitly asks for it and then refuse to join discord, you're just being a nuisance

[Armael]

How about, typing something in raid chat, how hard is it?

[Agall]

So much bullshit in this post.

1. Part of WoW is playing with other people, talking to them, human beings are known for making small talk during downtime. If you actually socialized with humans, you'd know this and you're either comfortable with it, or you're not. Get over yourself. Secondly, I met some great people in pugs, people that eventually became lifelong guildies. Try it sometime, maybe you wont have to pug so much if you actually starting talking.

3. You do need to communication. Lords of Dread Among Us phase disagrees with you. If you are a healer, and you're not in comms, you may get called for an external on a tank. Or to brez somebody if you have a brez class. There are so many variables, it just makes sense to be available. It cannot be quickly posted in chat if you need a barkskin in less than 2 seconds. This ignorance is a true sign that you think your shit doesn't stink.

So, so many people in pugs don't seem to grasp the need to communication in an MMO. They really don't belong here, go play Diablo.

There's 100x more variables in something like arenas and that can be easily done without voice. He's generally right, if you want to be social and force people into voice go ahead, but realize that there are some people, extremely capable and competent, who would rather not join voice and you're preventing those people from maybe saving you a few pulls/time. Your loss but its also your choice. Having to actively tell people how to play the game is active coaching, when people just know what to do they don't need you to tell them to do it.

[ZazuuPriest]

I don't see the problem... don't invite them if you require discord.

It's kind of odd that you come across as if you are blaming them for not accommodating you because you want them in your group.
If people don't want to join discord... that's perfectly ok. Either you relax on your requirements if you want these qualified players or you both go their separate ways.
If you lead PUGS i'm sure you've had plenty of people joining your discord, to accommodate YOU even if they aren't exactly thrilled with discord.

I know because I've done so. Sometimes I just want to pug and sometimes I find a group that requires voice and even if I don't want to I still join if I feel like joining said group. I don't expect them to disband their voice requirement to let me join. It's however up to each and everyone to make that decision. If you don't like who gets excluded with your requirements, change the requirements, otherwise you get the ones who accept them.

classic carry me mentality.

[dragonflight10]

How about, typing something in raid chat, how hard is it?

So the leader stops his rotation to type ignore X add or rez X person ?
voice is faster
how hard is it for you to consider there is other opinions ? you sound like an idiot who doesn't raid anything more than LFR

[Eli85]

So much bullshit in this post.

1. Part of WoW is playing with other people, talking to them, human beings are known for making small talk during downtime. If you actually socialized with humans, you'd know this and you're either comfortable with it, or you're not. Get over yourself. Secondly, I met some great people in pugs, people that eventually became lifelong guildies. Try it sometime, maybe you wont have to pug so much if you actually starting talking.

3. You do need to communication. Lords of Dread Among Us phase disagrees with you. If you are a healer, and you're not in comms, you may get called for an external on a tank. Or to brez somebody if you have a brez class. There are so many variables, it just makes sense to be available. It cannot be quickly posted in chat if you need a barkskin in less than 2 seconds. This ignorance is a true sign that you think your shit doesn't stink.

So, so many people in pugs don't seem to grasp the need to communication in an MMO. They really don't belong here, go play Diablo.

Something isn't bullshit just because you disagree with it.

I socialize with many, many humans, including in WoW, so I am well versed in how that works, and I am quite comfortable with it. If I feel the overwhelming need to socialize with randoms that I'll never meet again, I can do it in texts quite easily. I'm not losing any of the experience.

Your example is rather poor. Regardless of what role you play, if you do not know who and when to rez, that's on you for being ill-prepared. Tank dies? Instantly rez him / her. Common sense. Healer? Yup, unless the healing required is a joke. DPS? Unless they're responsible for a major mechanic or interrupts, they stay dead. This is consistent through every single fight in the game. I do not need a raid leader to bark at me to rez; I know instantly whether that player should be rez'd. Because, you know, I'm not terrible.

You just really don't understand that the actual information good players need (receiving or giving) is so minimal in the pugged content (normal / heroic). If you were making a case for Mythic, it'd make more sense. But normal / heroic? Do you even play those difficulties? Everything falls over with no voice pugs. It's really not needed.

As for your 3rd point, What if mid fight something happened or someone dies and the raid leader need to change X thing ? voice would be x10 better than typing in these situations.

I'll repeat what I said to marcusblood: if someone in the raid dies, and you don't instantly know if they should be rez'd or not, you are not a good player.

[Tziva]

1. Part of WoW is playing with other people, talking to them, human beings are known for making small talk during downtime. If you actually socialized with humans, you'd know this and you're either comfortable with it, or you're not. Get over yourself. Secondly, I met some great people in pugs, people that eventually became lifelong guildies. Try it sometime, maybe you wont have to pug so much if you actually starting talking.

I'm not going to argue against the value of comms for raid calls, nor against the importance of communication in general in cooperative play, because I agree with both those things, but it is insanely oblivious to the human experience if you think it is accurate to lump the entire swathe of people who don't want to use Discord with strangers as antisocials who are afraid of talking to people. The world is not this black and white.

There is a lot of socialising to be done in WoW outside of "PuG groups with randoms." I get that everyone's gameplay is different but most of us socialise quite heavily with our friends, guilds, raid groups, and other social circles in-game. We also may socialise with PuGs via text. It is possible! I have made a number of friends that way, including many I still play with today. Text based chat is actually a great medium for socially since this kind of conversation doesn't have the urgency that necessitates voice comms. That said, I still use voice chat regularly too, just generally reserved for people I already know. There's nothing about being social-- with pugs or otherwise -- that necessitates the use of voice chat.

Am I antisocial? I literally play WoW because of the social component. I only care about group content in this game. I'm apart of two different raid teams, and I do a lot of m+ both with a few regular friends and with a lot of PuGs. Turns out I can have a robust social experience without regular hopping into voice chat with strangers in PuG raids. In addition to being highly social within WoW, I also have a social life out in the real world, and am active in multiple communities based on activities and interests where I interact regularly with a lot of other humans. My dayjob is client-facing, and I interact with people there every day. I've also worked on this site for a decade now in a very communication and socially oriented role. So I think it's safe to say I am not adverse to talking to other humans, so I can only classify it as laughably wrong to assume because someone is not enthusiastic about voice chatting with a bunch of randos in the raid pug that they have a problem talking to others. You wouldn't call someone who doesn't actively approach strangers on the street to strike up a conversation as "antisocial" so I can't imagine why anyone would be incapable of extending that same level of understanding to the WoW equivalent.

This whole line of discussion is even more absurd to me if you're trying to argue the value of communication and hearing raid calls. Part of my biggest beef with voice comms in these groups is because I find these things end up mutually exclusive in practice. Some fucker wants to strike up a conversation about his favourite TV show on voice when all I want to hear is the raid leader's instructions. I'm fine being social but I don't want that bullshit on voice, I want voice clear to hear the useful data I actually joined it for. Your social shit would work perfectly fine -- in fact better -- in /ra chat. Leave the voice comms to necessary communication only.

[Vampyrr]

This is exactly the attitude I’m discussing.

First off I’d argue it’s just straight wrong, because some fights even if you know what the boss does it’s not clear how the current raid is dealing with the mechanics.

Denathrius P1 great example. The number of wipes caused by people that pushed P2 early because they couldn’t stop padding was silly. (That bleeds in to parse culture as well, but still if a player isn’t in discord they can’t hear the stops called.)

Fatescribe was also a great example when people needed help with rings.

Anduin to some extent, sorting out CCs on adds is definitely aided by discord.

Battle rezzes are another example, some times it makes a whole lot of sense to rez different people depending on the situation.

And actually that’s all a big part of it, voice chat is really there for when things go wrong, not for when things are going right. And these people assuming everything in a pug is gonna go super smooth, that’s rarely the case unless the group is really, really overpowering the fight.

Many of the people that don’t want to join Discord are way overqualified so I hate to pass on them. (And if they weren’t overqualified and also didn’t want discord it’s easier to just pass on them.) But it is uniquely frustrating to have these players obviously available for discord yet feel they’re too good to bother.

All told though, I feel these players tend to not be worth the effort.

Sounds like what you want is a guild not a pug

[Dorothyjean]

In my 15+ years of raid leading (mostly pugs) I have consistently had the most problems with anyone who says this. They are Always the first to rage quit.

Generally my groups have a couple different skill levels of players, and the groups are usually competent but not completely-overpowering-the-fight-competent.

It’s frustrating because I hate to turn down qualified players but there’s so many fights where communication is key. Target swaps, dodges, healing CDs, doesn’t matter if a player has killed a few twelve times, if they want to do it the current one they need to be working with the team.

There’s only one or two other groups of players I’ve had as much trouble with. I’m not going to mention them by name, but they weren’t an issue when I was fighting Ragnaros in vanilla.

I can one up you where you have this view of those people who do that... but then realize how many guilds you've been in where communication could have saved a wipe but 3/4 of your players in Discord DON'T TALK EVER OR SAY ANYTHING...

The amount of guilds I've been in that do that versus the amount of pugs I've been in with the "I know the fight I don't want to Discord"... the first is by far way higher than the pugs I've seen doing that. I've seen so many guilds where if a hunter, as an example, is gonna turtle and soak something but what do you hear on Discord...

Absolutely nothing.

[Vampyrr]

Well here's the situation

Was running a heroic boss one of the four last ones
Been putting group together for 45 min or so, had checked qualifications and parses reasonably but could NOT find a third healer to save my life. Had waited like 10 minutes.
273+ healer with exp queues up, everyone can see it in LFD, run is listed as requiring discord, guy joins, gets summons, says he doesn't wanna join discord blah blah blah my main has done mythic SylvanaJailerNathrius.

So my options were kinda limited.

Then he screwed up a mechanic and left after the wipe (we didn't even call him on it).

And that story has happened to me a lot over the years. Including a second individual in that specific run.

And don't get me wrong these players usually parse well, but if you don't one-shot everything they're GONE the next pull. And usually tell off the raid as they leave.

Seems like the option is dont invite or kick as soon as he says not joining

[dragonflight10]

Something isn't bullshit just because you disagree with it.

I socialize with many, many humans, including in WoW, so I am well versed in how that works, and I am quite comfortable with it. If I feel the overwhelming need to socialize with randoms that I'll never meet again, I can do it in texts quite easily. I'm not losing any of the experience.

Your example is rather poor. Regardless of what role you play, if you do not know who and when to rez, that's on you for being ill-prepared. Tank dies? Instantly rez him / her. Common sense. Healer? Yup, unless the healing required is a joke. DPS? Unless they're responsible for a major mechanic or interrupts, they stay dead. This is consistent through every single fight in the game. I do not need a raid leader to bark at me to rez; I know instantly whether that player should be rez'd. Because, you know, I'm not terrible.

You just really don't understand that the actual information good players need (receiving or giving) is so minimal in the pugged content (normal / heroic). If you were making a case for Mythic, it'd make more sense. But normal / heroic? Do you even play those difficulties? Everything falls over with no voice pugs. It's really not needed.



I'll repeat what I said to marcusblood: if someone in the raid dies, and you don't instantly know if they should be rez'd or not, you are not a good player.

Don't act smart
Someone dies in mythic and you are out rezs
If group X focuses right add and grp Z focuses left add

for me i'd instantly switch after a while to even out the DPS
what if someone had this idea too?
then after i go to the add or etc and when we realize thats 3-5 seconds loss of dps for me or anyone else

why should this happen if raid leader can call a single person to swtich?
nice insta attack on me chill idiot, anyone who rights this wall of text like you have a mental disorder

[Milli Shen]

Why not boil this down to the bones.

The OP stated he puts pugs together. He asks for Comms. Someone does not want to get on comms.

Said player may have a lot of experience with the people he plays with. Great. He is faced with a new mage, rogue, and warrior he has never played with.

One of the new players missed something they should pick up, and said player does not hear the callout for help for said player to pick up.

Then said player should be removed.

Raid leader said comms, if you don't get in comms it is on you.

If you are nervous to talk, just mute yourself, and block any incoming messages.

If this is not in your wheelhouse, don't join. Start your own or join a different group that meets your standards.

[schwank05]

I don't know how you can play this or any other game for that matter without shooting the shit in Discord.

[Count Zero]

Stop liking what I don't like!

[Milli Shen]

Maybe OP can form group and enter raid.

Once in repost group for a wait list?
This may allow you to have back up that are willing to wait.

After each boss just update what the next two bosses are?

- - - Updated - - -

Stop liking what I don't like!

But I like this!

[ablib]

As usual, the majority of this thread is off the mark, and misses the point.

Regardless of the opinion where one thinks chat communication is needed for a fight....

If the person putting the group together advertises "Discord Required", and someone joins and says "I know the fight, I don't need Discord", then they are a dumbfuck that needs to be removed from the group without a single word said.

If the person putting the group together doesn't state Discord is required, and someone says, "I know the fight, I don't need Discord", and you proceed to get emo about that, then the group leader is a dumbfuck for not making it a requirement.

This isn't hard.

[Evolixe]

I understand your PoV OP. But you won't find me joining your strange discord for a piece of content I've already cleared months ago.
There is absolutely no shot I'm joining strange discords for heroic raids or keys below the 24/25 level. It's just not necessary as long as you have any idea of what you're doing.

[garicasha]

And that’s exactly it, players that feel the content is beneath them are always the first to ragequit.