“I know the fight I don’t need Discord”

[Milli Shen]

I didn't think this was uncommon knowledge to be honest. But come to think of it a lot of people probably don't consider this properly.
They just see a player with omega-itemlevel and uber-experience and invite them over someone else in a heartbeat without stopping to think or ask what that person is doing there and how long they will be in for.

As Evo stats, be clear. Extra clear. What may seem basic to you, well may be lost on others. Make your description as clear as possible.

Oops, top part was a quote.

[Zelk]

It constantly amazes me how so many people playing this MMO absolutely hate the idea of playing with other people

[Eli85]

It constantly amazes me how so many people playing this MMO absolutely hate the idea of playing with other people

I didn't realize that you couldn't play with people unless you're in their Discord.

Fascinating.

[garicasha]

There's 2 sides to that story though. What you have to understand is that people that have cleared the content you are doing long ago are naturally not going to be as patient as people that havn't. Because they know the fight, they know what they are doing and they can see all the issues the group has and have a reasonable idea about how long it would take to straighten those issues out.

If you really want to know how much patience someone has, ask them beforehand. People put up a surprised pikachu face when others leave after 3/4/5 wipes but never actually thought to ask the "overqualified" player how long they would really be bothered to deal with other peoples learning curves.

Oh yah I know, I can be as elitist as anyone else. Literally the first thing I do when joining a pug is check the max health of every raider. If it’s for the last few bosses of heroic, 1-2 players whose health starts with a “5” and I instantly leave. If everyone’s health is in the low 60s I’ll start checking how many of the 11 bosses they’ve killed.

And although that’s definitely rude, I wasted 10 seconds of their time and they wasted ten seconds of mine; not a big deal.

But sometimes these overqualified players will stick around for five+ minutes for the group to form, then as I’m checking discord they’ll inform me they’re not getting in.

That puts me in a position where I’ve built a raid comp with the idea that they’re there. So my choice is to enforce my rule and force the issue, in which case they’re either mad, or the pug sees me removing a super qualified player and that’s not good optics either. Pugs are so fragile and people will jump from a sinking ship so fast but will cling to a gravy train all night.

So there’s several manners in which these players are being rude, but I feel my pugs are generally reasonable but not overpowering the fight. If these players looked around pre-pull they could probably save their time and mine.

[Devilyaki]

It constantly amazes me how so many people playing this MMO absolutely hate the idea of playing with other people

I don’t blame them, wow has a rather terrible community..

[Soikona]

What effort might that be? Are you saying your 15 years raid leading supercedes my 15 years healing experience, in the job of healing? You know better who I'm to heal and at which time, than I do? I'd love to see that raid tbh, where raid lead calls each healer and shouts out their second to second healing assignments.

Hyperbole at its finest. Best I have seen for a while!

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And in exhibit A and B of victim blaming comes two posts that leap to conclusions and make assumptions to try to push the idea that it's the person's fault for being creeped on, without knowing literally anything about the situations or reasoning why it was said!

Or just use the block/mute button. It’s what I do when I get people acting like towards me.

[Evolixe]

I mean I cleared heroic when my health started with a 5.. and that of everyone else in my raid as well. I think thats a bit shortsighted.

Anyway if it is clearly advertised that people are expected to join discord and they didn't even try to say they are not interested in that then they are the big bad. If it's not advertised then its on the leader. Its really quite simple. Just have to manage the expectations, on both sides.

You can also choose to just not enforce the discord rule on them granted that they have multiple kills on said boss already. Most pugs can't count for shit anyway so unless you bring it up, missing one or two people from voice quite easily goes under the radar

[MidnyteTV]

Something isn't bullshit just because you disagree with it.

I socialize with many, many humans, including in WoW, so I am well versed in how that works, and I am quite comfortable with it. If I feel the overwhelming need to socialize with randoms that I'll never meet again, I can do it in texts quite easily. I'm not losing any of the experience.

Your example is rather poor. Regardless of what role you play, if you do not know who and when to rez, that's on you for being ill-prepared. Tank dies? Instantly rez him / her. Common sense. Healer? Yup, unless the healing required is a joke. DPS? Unless they're responsible for a major mechanic or interrupts, they stay dead. This is consistent through every single fight in the game. I do not need a raid leader to bark at me to rez; I know instantly whether that player should be rez'd. Because, you know, I'm not terrible.

You just really don't understand that the actual information good players need (receiving or giving) is so minimal in the pugged content (normal / heroic). If you were making a case for Mythic, it'd make more sense. But normal / heroic? Do you even play those difficulties? Everything falls over with no voice pugs. It's really not needed.



I'll repeat what I said to marcusblood: if someone in the raid dies, and you don't instantly know if they should be rez'd or not, you are not a good player.

The only person you've convinced that you don't need to be in voice comms at any time is yourself. The amount of variables is too great to list. I don't understand what information raiders need? You're the one turning WoW from a great social experience into a game of weakauras and neckbeards. You talk about not wanting to socialize and talk to people, that is how friendships have been made in game. That is how guilds form, that is how new recruits are made.

If you're just an antisocial pugger, more power to you, but for those that refuse to get into voice comms when a raid leader orders you to, go find another group.

You see, this is what's most astounding about the pieces of shit that have taken over WoW, back in the day, Vent was just baked into the cake. You got into vent, and talked when needed/wanted to the group. Now, guilds literally have to actively post in their recruitment posts that they require you to have a working microphone, because too many pieces of shit just lie and say they don't have one. There's also now a box in group finder to join voice comms to make sure people know they have to get in.

Heroic raiding is certainly aided by voice comms, can you do it without them? Sure. Most groups can't. I like to see a vod of you doing heroic LoD without voice comms or weakauras....

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I'm not going to argue against the value of comms for raid calls, nor against the importance of communication in general in cooperative play, because I agree with both those things, but it is insanely oblivious to the human experience if you think it is accurate to lump the entire swathe of people who don't want to use Discord with strangers as antisocials who are afraid of talking to people. The world is not this black and white.

There is a lot of socialising to be done in WoW outside of "PuG groups with randoms." I get that everyone's gameplay is different but most of us socialise quite heavily with our friends, guilds, raid groups, and other social circles in-game. We also may socialise with PuGs via text. It is possible! I have made a number of friends that way, including many I still play with today. Text based chat is actually a great medium for socially since this kind of conversation doesn't have the urgency that necessitates voice comms. That said, I still use voice chat regularly too, just generally reserved for people I already know. There's nothing about being social-- with pugs or otherwise -- that necessitates the use of voice chat.

Am I antisocial? I literally play WoW because of the social component. I only care about group content in this game. I'm apart of two different raid teams, and I do a lot of m+ both with a few regular friends and with a lot of PuGs. Turns out I can have a robust social experience without regular hopping into voice chat with strangers in PuG raids. In addition to being highly social within WoW, I also have a social life out in the real world, and am active in multiple communities based on activities and interests where I interact regularly with a lot of other humans. My dayjob is client-facing, and I interact with people there every day. I've also worked on this site for a decade now in a very communication and socially oriented role. So I think it's safe to say I am not adverse to talking to other humans, so I can only classify it as laughably wrong to assume because someone is not enthusiastic about voice chatting with a bunch of randos in the raid pug that they have a problem talking to others. You wouldn't call someone who doesn't actively approach strangers on the street to strike up a conversation as "antisocial" so I can't imagine why anyone would be incapable of extending that same level of understanding to the WoW equivalent.

This whole line of discussion is even more absurd to me if you're trying to argue the value of communication and hearing raid calls. Part of my biggest beef with voice comms in these groups is because I find these things end up mutually exclusive in practice. Some fucker wants to strike up a conversation about his favourite TV show on voice when all I want to hear is the raid leader's instructions. I'm fine being social but I don't want that bullshit on voice, I want voice clear to hear the useful data I actually joined it for. Your social shit would work perfectly fine -- in fact better -- in /ra chat. Leave the voice comms to necessary communication only.

Voice comms will be whatever they will be. Don't like small talk? Don't talk to other humans. Humans naturally do that. Pugs aren't going to be totally serious, they're pugs.

Sounds like you need an ultra-serious environment.

[Aurabolt]

Outside a Guild or with friends, I don't do Voice Chat in video games. I tell the Raid Leader "We're gonna need to get to know each other before I agree to join your voice chat".

Also, no fights require voice chat. Speaking from personal experience here. Does it make coordination easier? Yes absolutely. Should it be mandatory? Hell no and more so if it's a fight you've done 10 million times.

[Eli85]

The only person you've convinced that you don't need to be in voice comms at any time is yourself. The amount of variables is too great to list. I don't understand what information raiders need? You're the one turning WoW from a great social experience into a game of weakauras and neckbeards. You talk about not wanting to socialize and talk to people, that is how friendships have been made in game. That is how guilds form, that is how new recruits are made.

If you're just an antisocial pugger, more power to you, but for those that refuse to get into voice comms when a raid leader orders you to, go find another group.

You see, this is what's most astounding about the pieces of shit that have taken over WoW, back in the day, Vent was just baked into the cake. You got into vent, and talked when needed/wanted to the group. Now, guilds literally have to actively post in their recruitment posts that they require you to have a working microphone, because too many pieces of shit just lie and say they don't have one. There's also now a box in group finder to join voice comms to make sure people know they have to get in.

Heroic raiding is certainly aided by voice comms, can you do it without them? Sure. Most groups can't. I like to see a vod of you doing heroic LoD without voice comms or weakauras....

There is so, so much that you're misreading.

Let's start first with the too many variables to list. Well yes, but also no. The prepared player knows every single mechanic that is going to happen before a pull happens. If a specific assignment is needed, the raid leader can convey this, but over voice is not required. Some things can be randomized, sure, but the prepared player knows how to deal with it. There is a metric tonne of raid relevant information that you can gleam from the UI and add-ons. If you know what you're doing, the only thing you need to know from the raid leader is assignments. Which, again, does not need to happen over voice.

Now the social aspect. There is something you're just not grasping here: what is the point of "being social" with a group of people you're never, ever going to see again? That's what you're dealing with in normal / heroic PUGs. If this was a week after week consistent group? You have a point. But if it's just randoms? Who cares? I'm not going to joke around with Bob and Susan, just to never encounter them again.

Most groups can't do heroic with voice comms? Most groups absolutely can. I PUG heroic raids on my alts tier after tier, and none of those groups required voice chat. The game just isn't hard enough that you need a raid leader holding your hand over voice for every single mechanic.

[AlmightyGerkin]

"I know the fight, I don't need discord"

Sure but I'm unsure of your stupidity

[Ragedaug]

I would join discord or the good old ventrilo(old days) if it was required. joined, muted. Sometimes I would talk, most often not. I join for the sake of it and at the very least I get all info directly.

If ppl are annoying ie talking alot or hear the sound of keyboard clicks, I mute them all except raid leader.

Basically this. If someone is offensive or annoying, like baby talk to their cat and/or singing to themselves with an open mic throughout the raid, I mute them and don't worry about them anymore. It's kinda funny seeing the rest of my guildies get worked about about an annoying pug that joins our discord for raid. Just mute them and forget about it.

Otherwise as some folks are mentioning, it's not only about knowing the fight, it's about communication, 'cause sometimes crazy stuff happens, or the raid leaders runs the fight a different way then you are used to. If you are on discord, you don't look stupid when you are the only one doing something after the raid leader calls an audible.

[Chilela]

As someone who did his fair share of putting together groups that were part-guild, part-PUG to fill the holes, it ultimately boils down to context.

For more trivial content (e.g. Normal raids, early Heroic bosses), then I didn't really care if people got into voice or not. But once you get into stuff that requires more coordination, e.g. something like Heroic Mekkatorque, it starts to become a bigger deal. Plus, groups sometimes have somewhat different strats for various encounters, so unless someone magically knows every single possible strat, they might have a rough time due to that.

Also, I usually would check logs for more difficult content, which made it a bit easier to determine whether or not people actually knew fights, as well as their own class, before bringing them in. People do like to BS a lot, including both whether or not they know the fight, as well as what achievements they actually have. People loved them some fake achievement scripts.

[Tziva]

Voice comms will be whatever they will be. Don't like small talk? Don't talk to other humans. Humans naturally do that. Pugs aren't going to be totally serious, they're pugs.

Sounds like you need an ultra-serious environment.

Serious/unserious has nothing to do with it. I am not a serious person.

I simply don't want to be stuck in voice chat listening to unregulated strangers. I find extraneous audio distracting already, and strangers are a mixed enough bag in terms of their social skills, social-appropriateness, even something as simple as how much a specific person dominates the chat without others getting a chance to talk. I would simply prefer to have my silliness and small talk to be text based where it is much easier to participate in the conversations you want and ignore the ones I don't. I find it to be a much more enjoyable experience. It has nothing to do with seriousness, or -- as was originally claimed -- general distaste for being social.

It turns out, sometimes a preference is just a preference and not some kind of pathology or a reflection of some kind of social problem.

[MidnyteTV]

There is so, so much that you're misreading.

Let's start first with the too many variables to list. Well yes, but also no. The prepared player knows every single mechanic that is going to happen before a pull happens. If a specific assignment is needed, the raid leader can convey this, but over voice is not required. Some things can be randomized, sure, but the prepared player knows how to deal with it. There is a metric tonne of raid relevant information that you can gleam from the UI and add-ons. If you know what you're doing, the only thing you need to know from the raid leader is assignments. Which, again, does not need to happen over voice.

Now the social aspect. There is something you're just not grasping here: what is the point of "being social" with a group of people you're never, ever going to see again? That's what you're dealing with in normal / heroic PUGs. If this was a week after week consistent group? You have a point. But if it's just randoms? Who cares? I'm not going to joke around with Bob and Susan, just to never encounter them again.

Most groups can't do heroic with voice comms? Most groups absolutely can. I PUG heroic raids on my alts tier after tier, and none of those groups required voice chat. The game just isn't hard enough that you need a raid leader holding your hand over voice for every single mechanic.

The amount of things that can happen in any fight at any time disagree with you.

Please don't use anecdotes. Nobody buys them.

Lastly, voice comms aren't necessary for a raid leader to "hold your hand" but also to convey audibles or on the fly decisions or needs that can't possibly be thought up beforehand and conveyed via chat. If that were the case, each boss fight would have lines and lines of text to try and map out what to do and when.

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Serious/unserious has nothing to do with it. I am not a serious person.

I simply don't want to be stuck in voice chat listening to unregulated strangers. I find extraneous audio distracting already, and strangers are a mixed enough bag in terms of their social skills, social-appropriateness, even something as simple as how much a specific person dominates the chat without others getting a chance to talk. I would simply prefer to have my silliness and small talk to be text based where it is much easier to participate in the conversations you want and ignore the ones you do. I find it to be a much more enjoyable experience. It has nothing to do with seriousness, or -- as was originally claimed -- general distaste for being social.

It turns out, sometimes a preference is just a preference and not some kind of pathology or a reflection of some kind of social problem.

Sounds like a game that requires any type of coordination with other people just isn't for you. There are a TON of single player RPGs that can fulfill your needs. I suggest you try them out.

[Jinpachi]

I can tell by your attititude, you are either always last in dps/hps or die to easy mechanics. No one who is actually good says stutt like that

And I can tell by your spelling you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[Tziva]

Sounds like a game that requires any type of coordination with other people just isn't for you. There are a TON of single player RPGs that can fulfill your needs. I suggest you try them out.

It absolutely is for me, and I exclusively do group content in this game. I've gone to great pains in this thread to say that I find voice comms useful in many group contexts, and necessary in others. I do infact use Discord, in my multiple raids, and in the higher m+ keys that I do with friends. My preference is not to use it with PuGs only.

I was only responding to the ridiculous claim that people who dislike voice chat with strangers dislike it solely because they are phobic of talking to people or are generally antisocial. I was never, and would never, make the claim that voice comms aren't of value for coordination.

[Eli85]

The amount of things that can happen in any fight at any time disagree with you.

Please don't use anecdotes. Nobody buys them.

Lastly, voice comms aren't necessary for a raid leader to "hold your hand" but also to convey audibles or on the fly decisions or needs that can't possibly be thought up beforehand and conveyed via chat. If that were the case, each boss fight would have lines and lines of text to try and map out what to do and when.

First I'll start with: actually read the thread. I'm not the only person who believes that normal and heroic can be easily done without voice comms. In fact there are a lot of us who think that way. So this "nobody buys the anecdotes" is ridiculous. Read the thread.

Second, the only "amount of things" that can happen in a fight that is not known from the outset is ... people failing mechanics and dying. No amount of voice comms is going to save you when half the group fails to go into the Kingsmourne phase in Anduin. If too many people fail and die, voice comms isn't going to suddenly save your group. It almost feels like that you think mechanics are executed at random? Everything in WoW PvE fights is predictable with a small bit of randomization. Once you know the fight, and I mean truly know the fight, it's muscle memory. You don't need some dude barking at you. You just do it.

edit: I just want to add, and this is not directed at you, marcusblood, but a more general talking point to this thread. The "we need everyone in voice" is a relic of older MMOs, when it was reasonable that most players in the group did not know the fight, and needed guidance on what to actually do. In recent years, especially in this game, there is an obscene amount of information in the form of guides, dungeon journal, UI information, weak auras ... that even if you're doing the fight for the first time, if you did even a little bit of preparation, you don't need any voice communication to do your job. When you further consider that normal and heroic raid difficulties are ridiculously easy, there's just no practical reason for voice comms when you don't know the people.

[Tojara]

Granted this example isn't about discord because 5 mans generally don't need them if you're pugging, but the key point is still communication.

Watching somebody I know tank who is pretty good at tanking and knows how things are suppose to be done, but the M+ keys they're doing are just completely hit or miss. Why? Communication really. The first boss and area of Plaguefall is a prime example of a boss that destroys pugs and almost all of it's simply because there's zero communication, which is technically everyone's fault. Group has 3 candidates who can CC the big slime and absolutely nobody does it because nobody ever spoke up and arranged it. The two elites that spawn adds and patrol around the room on opposite sides? Normally you pull one (or none) in an organized group and stay away from the other, but this is another point of contention because it's just easier to pull both of them and not risk somebody getting punted into the other side of the room, essentially wiping the key.

Redundancy is important in pugs even if you overpull in M+. Most keys go poorly or get bricked because you try to sneak around things or follow meta routes in scenarios where communication is low, not because you take steps to ensure that there are minimal amount of fucks up possible. Yet, pugs can be bad and if you pull extra (especially as a tank) there's actually a decent possibility you get flamed.

As group numbers increased communication is still key. If you don't want to join voice find another group. If you still hate being forced into discord but have no alternatives, mute everybody who isn't the 'raid leader' or deafen yourself until the pull is about to start and turn the sound on then. If the raid leader is a dipshit or the environment is awful just leave and find another group, or.. make your own.

You can absolutely pug most of the content in the game but not all people playing the game are created equal, nor are the communication skills of the general player base that great (even when typed out, as opposed to voice). I'm not sure why people are surprised that people take every advantage possible to put themselves in the best position to actually do the content they're trying to pug. You're still going to find shitty groups, or step on land mines of players who are simply there trying to coast through content (who have no intention of learning anything).. but that's just the nature of social games in general.

[Snater]

I agree with you completely. When pugging m+, I hate it when tanks assume you automatically know their entire route by heart and all the specific skips they do. Often trying to skip packs we end up losing more time than gaining