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  1. #261
    Herald of the Titans Marxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    RDF did not exist until ICC. It would be in the final phase or two if we implemented it when it was originally added. People here want it in the beginning instead. Has it occurred to you that the experience of queueing up for a dungeon when everyone is in pre-Naxx gear might be a very, very, very, very different experience compared to queueing up for a dungeon THREE PATCHES LATER when the dungeons were easily steamrolled by anyone? This is what I mean when I say that nobody wants this. People have this idea in their head that if we add RDF throughout all of Wrath, which would absolutely be requesting RETAIL features be added to the game before they were in the patches, it will magically feel like it did when people were wtf-rofl-stomping dungeons post-ICC. That's not what it's going to be. What it's going to be is more like Cataclysm, where you queue up, wipe on the first boss, and then people drop group. Not to mention that you would also need to implement the REWARD STRUCTURE of RFD which means introducing whole new progression systems before they were originally in the game. You all are not thinking this through, which is why catering to you is a terrible idea.
    You do understand that a large percentage of Classic players were originally pserver players, right? This isn't some "oh I'm just not remembering this right" thing. I know exactly what it feels like to queue for RDF heroics in bare-minimum item level in WotLK. I did it less than a year ago... in BUFFED heroic dungeons, no less. It's fine. It's easy. It's extremely easy, actually.

    RDF works perfectly fine in the 3.0 launch content. There is no reward structure conflict, no struggles through dungeons, or much toxicity to speak of (at least no more than already exists in this trash fire of a community). I've done it multiple times in the past several years. You're creating issues that simply do not and will not exist.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    You do understand that a large percentage of Classic players were originally pserver players, right? This isn't some "oh I'm just not remembering this right" thing. I know exactly what it feels like to queue for RDF heroics in bare-minimum item level in WotLK. I did it less than a year ago... in BUFFED heroic dungeons, no less. It's fine. It's easy. It's extremely easy, actually.

    RDF works perfectly fine in the 3.0 launch content. There is no reward structure conflict, no struggles through dungeons, or much toxicity to speak of (at least no more than already exists in this trash fire of a community). I've done it multiple times in the past several years. You're creating issues that simply do not and will not exist.
    I cannot possibly express more strongly how much you just proved my case.

    Even if we put aside the imperfection of pservers, do you think the types of players who are going to go through the trouble of playing on a server, let alone a BUFFED PSERVER, are the same types of players that are going to be playing an official version of Classic Wrath? You genuinely don't think there might be some knowledge or skill cap difference there? This is the kind of know-nothing self-assuredness that I am glad Blizzard is thankfully not going along with.

    "I logged into a buffed pserver and the people there had no problems!" Unreal that this is a real argument a real person just made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    You do understand that a large percentage of Classic players were originally pserver players, right?
    By the way, this is absolute horseshit. The classic population dwarfs the pserver communities by many orders of magnitude.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And that's not how classic works so it is is irrelevant. The ICC phase will be the last or second to last phase.

    I'll repeat myself: Classic servers don't emulate patch length.

    See, the problem here is you have a catch 22:

    You can admit that it wasn't added until one of the last patches, which means it shouldn't be added until the end of Classic Wrath, rendering your argument pointless.
    OR
    You can demand LFD be introduced earlier than it was in the actual expansion which undermines your case that Wrath should be like Wrath was.

    There is no win here for you.
    I already told you in another post that I'm not a no-changes purist, and I don't believe I've said that Classic should be identical to the original in every way. Yes, the dungeon finder should be released with 3.3.0 if they are going to exactly mirror history, but frankly if they had it at the start it wouldn't bother me, as IMO it would only improve the experience. It's the total removal of it that bothers me. Blizzard listened to vanilla/TBC players instead of the people were waiting for Wrath.

  4. #264
    Herald of the Titans Marxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    snip
    You give far, far, far too much credit to the average pserver player lol. I would wager that the average player on that server was worse than the average TBCC player right now. Most of them are Russian or South American players that can barely hold a mouse, much less do hard content. That's just how easy WotLK heroics are. Like I cannot stress this enough: WotLK heroics are completely, utterly braindead faceroll content.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    You give far, far, far too much credit to the average pserver player lol. I would wager that the average player on that server was worse than the average TBCC player right now. Most of them are Russian or South American players that can barely hold a mouse, much less do hard content. That's just how easy WotLK heroics are. Like I cannot stress this enough: WotLK heroics are completely, utterly braindead faceroll content.
    Cataclysm heroics were tuned the same as wotlk heroics. Ghostcrawler confirmed this. The only different was the RDF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I already told you in another post that I'm not a no-changes purist, and I don't believe I've said that Classic should be identical to the original in every way. Yes, the dungeon finder should be released with 3.3.0 if they are going to exactly mirror history, but frankly if they had it at the start it wouldn't bother me, as IMO it would only improve the experience. It's the total removal of it that bothers me. Blizzard listened to vanilla/TBC players instead of the people were waiting for Wrath.
    Blizzard is listened to the people that play the product, rather than the people who say "I'd play it if..." because the people that already play the product already proved they'll pay for it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  6. #266
    Herald of the Titans Marxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Cataclysm heroics were tuned the same as wotlk heroics. Ghostcrawler confirmed this. The only different was the RDF.
    Ok, so we're done here. This basically proves that you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Cata launch heroics were at minimum 3 times harder than WotLK launch heroics. Anyone who played both expansions can vouch for this. WotLK heroics were on farm day 1. Cata heroics required a decent premade group and multiple CCs to get through until they nerfed them. There is absolutely no comparison.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I think things are a bit simpler than you are describing them. There are two main demographics for Classic:
    1. Nostalgists
    2. Old School MMO Fan
    We've seen through both iterations of Classic that nostalgists don't hang around. They get bored quickly and move on, because that's how nostalgia works. I know almost nobody still playing TBC Classic who started in TBC Classic. The people left are the same people that hung around for all of Vanilla Classic. The people who said "I'm waiting for TBC" did so, and then promptly moved on a few weeks later. We see the same thing here. By and large, the people demanding RDF are saying "I'm waiting for Wrath". I see no reason to expect the pattern to break: New version releases, nostalgists come in, nostalgists go, old school MMO fans stay around.
    The way you phrase it makes it sound like this is your personal opinion and you also provide no evidence to these claims. I can only acknowledge that your opinion on this matter is inconsistent with my personal experience and opinion, which I presented in my previous post.
    RDF would not change that for one big reason: RDF was in the ICC patch so it wouldn't be introduced until the tail end of Wrath Classic anyway.
    This is a different discussion. It's best to keep it separate in order to keep the arguments as simple and as clear as possible. I'll point out here that the question "RDF: Yay or nay?" only creates two camps, whereas the question "RDF: How?" has already created many camps (based on a fictional scenario in which the answer to the first question were affirmative). It's really unproductive to mix the two questions.
    The idea of having RDF and non-RDF realms is just silly. Season of Mastery has been a dismal failure, because the audience for "Classic with modern touches" doesn't really exist. There are a loooooot of people who said "Oh I'd love classic with faster leveling and better tuned raids and some balance!" Where are they? They aren't playing Season of Mastery, because the truth is that what they want exists only in their minds. The truth is that if the presence of RDF is the difference between wanting to play Classic or not, then Classic isn't for you because the rest of the design decisions are so radically at odds with the type of player that wants RDF.
    Has it? To my knowledge, SoM has small, albeit viable populations. Besides, there are aspects of SoM that you did not consider, such as its seasonal nature (which is unattractive to some) and the chosen timing for its launch (which might have happened to soon after the first Classic, before peoples' batteries for it were recharged so to speak). It will be interesting to see how SoM fares alongside Classic-WotLK. I expect that SoM (and also Classic Era) will experience a revival. In Retail, the earliest "Classic" communities that I remember already existed back in WotLK.

    Which brings me to another important matter, i.e., the fact that, even without RDF, WotLK is already a substantial move away from what you describe as "Old School MMO" and from Classic Vanilla. One wonders what exactly do you find appealing about Classic-WotLK? Why not return to playing Classic Era? Are you going to keep on playing this modified version of WoW until the end?
    There is a game for people that want RDF. It is called "Retail wow".
    As pointed out in my previous post, this claim ignores the status of RDF in Retail, as well as the numerous other changes made in Retail over the last 10+ years. Retail is not welcoming at all for people who like RDF.
    There are zero people who are going to say "Oh I'll play Wrath if the last phase has RDF". These people do not exist. What is really being asked for is "Change wrath so that it always has RDF" or rephrased "Make wrath like retail, kick out the established classic playerbase and cater to a theoretical playerbase instead, which is coincidentally the same playerbase that SOM was aimed at and never showed up"
    I can confirm that this group has at least one member (I have no mandate to speak for anyone else). I personally care not for any changes to Classic-WotLK (especially not in the likeness of those made for SoM). But just to be clear, would you be opposed to RDF in 3.3? Your post suggests that you are bothered more by potential other changes that are not being asked for.

  8. #268
    The group finder should be phased in later, when everyone's gear is so crazy that you can tank them as an ele shammy.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by dirk123 View Post
    They could have just taken the middle ground.
    Normal dungeons being able to queue, HC's need full group and not able to queue (like mythics in retail)
    Then we are left with the massive search for tanks\healers as well as the GS nonsense on top. No thx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Also the reality of LFD

    press Find Group and wait 10 minutes
    join the group
    it's Occulus
    tank and 2 dps instantly leave
    let it find a replacement for a few more minutes
    replacements also leave
    you leave
    30 minutes deserter
    Join LFD again. It's not occulus.
    Save 20 minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  10. #270
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izzyfurious View Post
    ''People need to realize this is 2022, people want easier accessibility.''

    Then thats why you have Retail. Thats for you Casuals who have constant limited time. You lot of player types are the only ones upsets of this, no one else.
    So u assume i cant be casual in classic way its derogatory and discrimination...

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Etna-the-Undying View Post
    I dont get this. Who the hell is siting in a City spaming LF 2 more need tank and healer. Have you ever played with world chat? I have never once stood in a city spaming for a group i would always just create a quick macro and hit it on world chat while doing some quests or even on a leveling alt.
    LFD will just make me have to sit on my main and wait for a queue. AFK ... cant even do BGs while in the queue. (TBH i think in wotlk you could still do a BG while in queue think it got removedin cata)
    OfC you do not have to sit in Dalaran. But you do not have to sit in Dalaran during LFD-Queue either. You can be out in the world doing things. Yeah you have to be on the character you want to go into the dungeon with, but LFD does not prevent you from doing your manually search for group mates either. You still have the freedom to do so.

    I also dont want to necessarily advocate to implement LFD exactly as it was - to be clear about that, I think it needs to be adapted. But having a well designed tool to help you build groups in a MMO to help strengthen the multiplayer aspect - why would you be against that? Especially for the content which is not as relevant anymore, like for example leveling dungeons in Azeroth and TBC.

  12. #272
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    But it wil be a feature during WotLK? Guess i've missed that.

    They will have dual spec, but more restrictive. Whatever that means. lol
    they said it will be introduced in ulduar patch, same time as wrath

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam552 View Post
    LFD used to be known as the sit in Stormwind/Orgrimmar all day and queue for dungeons MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE RP GAME
    or actually knowing friends and making a lot to be able to run a dungeon too...
    i don't remember i ever sit in orgrimmar, but i did /who + /w a LOT of ppl asking class at lvl of said dungeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It did not plain and simple, you obviously never played back then because the social aspect was the same regardless of LFD or not, dungeons in WotlK were mostly pointless so without LFD they will get ignored mostly. The game will not last without LFD and that is a fact.
    maybe after 3.1 (or more of 3.2, because even at 3.1 launch it was hard to raid)
    but during 3.0 statics prove that wrath hcs were no joke, ppl wiped a lot in them, Loken held record most killer NPC, ppl like to forget that at launch, wrath hcs weren't cakewalk, at least not all of them, just like TBC some were Underbog others were Shattered Halls difficulty
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  13. #273
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    My only disagreement is with people who want dungeon finder added earlier than it originally was. I'm fine with them adding it alongside ICC.

  14. #274
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    I'm old player. i know that even as tank once u cross the crowded hours u can't do ur daily hc, but the price is too high, i also recall ppl actually caring and talking to each others, something that lfg destroyed then came token to bury it

    So your idea is that vast amounts of people should be totally fucked out of content because a few people have some weird delusional memories about some magical socializing in stupid daily dungeons ?

    Day xyz of TBC and I've yet to see any socializing in dungeon groups. Literally mute all the time. All socializing is done in guilds / discord.
    Now for this amazing non existent special socializing I have to pay the price of wasting a ton of extra hours in a gimped group finding experience.

  15. #275
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Day xyz of TBC and I've yet to see any socializing in dungeon groups. Literally mute all the time. All socializing is done in guilds / discord.
    Now for this amazing non existent special socializing I have to pay the price of wasting a ton of extra hours in a gimped group finding experience.
    u talking about TBC classic that is currently playable or the old TBC way back in 2006? I don't play wow right now, but i'm 100% sure we were socializing a LOT back then
    The LFG dmg maybe hard or even irreversible, but it is what dealt the biggest blow to wow social aspect
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Izzyfurious View Post
    ''People need to realize this is 2022, people want easier accessibility.''

    Then thats why you have Retail. Thats for you Casuals who have constant limited time. You lot of player types are the only ones upsets of this, no one else.
    Launching Wrath classic without group finder (or wait until 3.3 release) would be like launching TBC classic without Kara. It's part of the Wrath experience. Plus it makes it easier to level alts.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    u talking about TBC classic that is currently playable or the old TBC way back in 2006? I don't play wow right now, but i'm 100% sure we were socializing a LOT back then
    The LFG dmg maybe hard or even irreversible, but it is what dealt the biggest blow to wow social aspect
    Never really "socialized" with pug groups in vanilla wow or tbc much more then i did post group finder. The social aspect of wow IS in guilds - and its still there. People who think it isnt are people who are not social enough to be in a guild.

    There are 2 things that actually contributed to servers being less social across guilds:

    1. Transmog. You where no longer comparing gear while running by someone because most people wherent transmogged to the gear they where wearing. This straight up ment less rivalry between guilds.
    2. Cross server stuff. Pretty self explanatory. You rarely ran past the same people anywhere.

    Today its even worse because normal/hc raid loot is basically useless but i'm hoping blizzard will do something about that.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Izzyfurious View Post
    ''People need to realize this is 2022, people want easier accessibility.''

    Then thats why you have Retail. Thats for you Casuals who have constant limited time. You lot of player types are the only ones upsets of this, no one else.
    Agree, except that vanilla is much more casual than retail. At least personally retail takes much more effort, whereas in vanilla doing high end pve takes close to 0 effort (because it doesn't require progress as most bosses die in first pull).
    Last edited by facefist; 2022-05-15 at 01:28 PM.

  19. #279
    How stubborn those incompetent devs are.. 70% want a dungeon finder and they ignore it.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by kingj56 View Post
    How is flying to the dungeon fun or having to summon someone who is to lazy to fly or to poor to buy flying.
    You're absolutely correct. Traveling around the WORLD in an MMORPG is wrong and bad and stupid, so we should remove it and just have one hub area with portals to every dungeon and raid. No travel, just instant teleports everywhere.



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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    70% want a dungeon finder and they ignore it.
    "70%"
    [citation needed]

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