Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[Brianjosel]

If you're not lying then you probably forgot that wrath launch dungeons were so utterly trivial that nobody cared about GS because it was impossible to wipe there.
And in 2022 the same will be true for the ICC ones.

I remember Hall's of Reflection could be kind of challenging.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Its also that they stated exactly what I said, when they revealed they decided to not add the LFG tool. Even watching videos that serve as documentaries about WoW (yes I know these are not professional documentary creators), whatever it is that started the downward trend of WoW losing subs happened during WotLK and into Cataclysm (Last patch I believe).

So, I believe they are trying different approaches to see the impact it has on the game, as they already saw the outcome of linking servers and making it easier to find groups. Its definitely convenient, but they now have an option to see what would happen if they hadn't added it, rather than just speculate.

There are enough people playing classic anyway that I don't feel like the lack of this tool will have a massive impact on people's ability to get content done.

I'm sure that was the only change that occurred and it is a scientific fact that it was in fact the only thing that caused it all to come undone. To the path to a game that had fewer people but ended up more profitable then ever. Even to this day. Its funny. You can twist anything to hit an objective.

I am not to for or against the finder. More people that just make shit up to be either for or against it. Or take one little bit and expand it into a universe of evidence. Just not the case. FF has a finder and seems to be doing alright. I doubt Finder is the direct cause of anything going wrong. Probably has something more to do with quality of the product and targeting the right audience for success.

[Delever]

I can't decide who are the biggest liars in this thread. The people that claim lfd, a tool that was added at the last patch of wotlk was a core part of the expansion or the people that claim to be getting kicked from lfds because of gearscore.

[anon5123]

Isn't this bit ironic since it was in wotlk to begin with?

It was added in 3.3, not "to begin with".

And just because it was that way does not mean it was objectively a good decision that everyone liked. TBC originally had Seal of Blood as exclusive to Blood Elf paladins...yeah that was a fucking awful decision because it just made horde paladins outright better than alliance ones, so Blizzard changed it for Classic.

Similarly, LFD ruined the game by making everything cross-realm insta-teleport which just completely goes against what an MMO is supposed to be. It destroyed server communities by making dungeons cross-realm with strangers you'll never see again after the run ends. The game functioned perfectly fine without it. We don't need it.

If you don't want to use group finder then...just dont? Nobody is forcing you?

"Just don't use it" is and has always been a terrible solution for anything.

Blizz adding a cash shop for raid gear is perfectly okay, just don't use it
Blizz selling max level characters is perfectly okay, just don't use it
Blizz selling really cool looking mounts instead of having them come from raid achievements is perfectly okay, just don't buy them

See how dumb that logic is? You're excusing terrible game-ruining systems with "uhhh just don't use it"...it's hard to "don't use it" when 90% of the playerbase is using it. With LFD in, NOBODY puts groups together the traditional vanilla/TBC way because LFD is infinitely more convenient. And that's the root of the issue. Convenience. Once Activision took over Blizzard, they started destroying the game by removing MMO features in the name of convenience. Dumbing everything down for casuals who only play 30 minutes a day and don't care to put any real effort into the game.

[Zoibert the Bear]

I'm a die-hard Classic fan, and firmly in the #NoChanges club. Because of this, I would be hugely disappointed if they proceed with leaving the dungeon finder out of Wrath.

Yeah, I'm ok with this as long as they only add it with 3.3.0 and not before.

[Cayde69]

I can't decide who are the biggest liars in this thread. The people that claim lfd, a tool that was added at the last patch of wotlk was a core part of the expansion or the people that claim to be getting kicked from lfds because of gearscore.

The people talking about getting kicked for gear score are for sure lying. No one even did lfds outside of their one per day and if you were in current raid tier gear you almost didn’t even need a healer or tank you would fucking blast right through them so quick you didn’t even think about it.

The other people at least have *kind of* a point. That ‘last patch’ they were added lasted for half of wotlks life span. Sure if you look at it tier by tier it wasn’t around all that much.

[NoiseTank13]

Yeah, I'm ok with this as long as they only add it with 3.3.0 and not before.

This would be the best compromise to be honest. LFD during the badge grind would be weird.

Most people complaining about LFD 'destroying muh community' were usually in a community that was imploding in on itself for a variety of outside reasons (current generation getting jobs/families/not having time or money) and seized on LFD as the scapegoat.

Or they are completely oblivious why people around them seem to prefer LFD over inviting them specifically.

[Super Kami Dende]

Since they will likely release Wrath on 3.3.5's patch like they did with previous Classics "final patch" patches, it would make no sense to keep LFD gone until ICC. Since the framework for it would already be there.

That and it would be nice to be able to queue straight into the levelling dungeons of Wrath from the start. A lot of People skip Nexus, Azjol nerub, Draktharon etc. just because halting your levelling process to go sit somewhere and spam "LFG" for 30+ mins is just meh.

[deniter]

No LFD is the reason why most realms die because noone wants to manually search for a group all the time, it does nothing for the community so there is no reason not to have it in place for quick access to any dungeon you want, its a simple fact more ppl do the dungeons because of the LFD tool and without it many will barely even go in them if not at all.

If players don't want to go in dungeons the problem is in a game play, not in the way to look for groups. In vanilla, you could find yourself in a situation where your gear was so bad you couldn't kill even non-elite mobs of your own level. Gear came from dungeons, so if you didn't run dungeons you could hit the brick wall at some point. The game was designed the way that players really wanted to run dungeons, no matter what.

Fast forward to TBC and WotLK, you'll get all gear necessary to level up from quests. Period. Dungeons are nice and give some blue loot but are not really vital for reaching the level cap. In that sense, who gives a shit if you find groups by queuing in an automated LFG tool or by spamming a chat channel ad nauseam. The former is just more efficient and less time consuming method, which all this is naturally all about.

I'm looking forward to WotLK Classic but, to be honest, i'd take WoW vanilla any day of the week.

[Coffeh]

Since they will likely release Wrath on 3.3.5's patch like they did with previous Classics "final patch" patches, it would make no sense to keep LFD gone until ICC. Since the framework for it would already be there.

That and it would be nice to be able to queue straight into the levelling dungeons of Wrath from the start. A lot of People skip Nexus, Azjol nerub, Draktharon etc. just because halting your levelling process to go sit somewhere and spam "LFG" for 30+ mins is just meh.

You're correct, but it gets even worse that they're not even adding in dungeon finder with ICC. It's never going into Wrath Classic.

[kirzan]

They just hate that with RDF, average Joes now have the power to get epics and actually progress without sucking off the people who have a deathgrip on the server. The google spreadsheet owners with editing access. RDF would take that away and it terrifies them.

[wushootaki]

Talk about confirmation bias. lol

the LFD tool will be essential in cutting back on boosting if they don't implement something like what they did with SoM and should be included in the game

Its not confirmation bias. There is legit no other information on what would happen without it added in WotLK. Even with it being added later, it was added the first time. So not doing it this time is a chance for them to see what the effects are.

People who play for classic are still gonna play it regardless.

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Simple reason WoW loses players is you cant always have time to play games, as a game gets old it loses players and some new players may not like an older game so its pretty obvious its going to lose players over time, no feature in the game is the reason why subs are dropping, vanilla to wotlk is around 6 years so thats a long time for things to change for a player.

WoW is just an older game, its gameplay doesnt change much so can get boring and the content remains mostly the same each expansion with a few differences so that has more to do with players staying subbed rather than a specific tool or so.

Maybe for retail --- I don't think the same is true for classic, because a lot of people have done all of this before. And classic's content does hold up, as shown by its popularity.

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I'm sure that was the only change that occurred and it is a scientific fact that it was in fact the only thing that caused it all to come undone. To the path to a game that had fewer people but ended up more profitable then ever. Even to this day. Its funny. You can twist anything to hit an objective.

I am not to for or against the finder. More people that just make shit up to be either for or against it. Or take one little bit and expand it into a universe of evidence. Just not the case. FF has a finder and seems to be doing alright. I doubt Finder is the direct cause of anything going wrong. Probably has something more to do with quality of the product and targeting the right audience for success.

There are tons of contributing factors, but most companies don't get the chance to go back and re-do something like this. So since they have that opportunity, I understand their desire to want to make changes and see what the outcome is: for better or worse.

[kenn9530]

If players don't want to go in dungeons the problem is in a game play, not in the way to look for groups. In vanilla, you could find yourself in a situation where your gear was so bad you couldn't kill even non-elite mobs of your own level. Gear came from dungeons, so if you didn't run dungeons you could hit the brick wall at some point. The game was designed the way that players really wanted to run dungeons, no matter what.

Fast forward to TBC and WotLK, you'll get all gear necessary to level up from quests. Period. Dungeons are nice and give some blue loot but are not really vital for reaching the level cap. In that sense, who gives a shit if you find groups by queuing in an automated LFG tool or by spamming a chat channel ad nauseam. The former is just more efficient and less time consuming method, which all this is naturally all about.

I'm looking forward to WotLK Classic but, to be honest, i'd take WoW vanilla any day of the week.

Dungeons are not often worth the effort to get a group sometimes, LFD is a tool that gives easy access so you dont have to do the tedious work, there are no downsides.

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Maybe for retail --- I don't think the same is true for classic, because a lot of people have done all of this before. And classic's content does hold up, as shown by its popularity.

Classics content doesnt hold up, its far too easy for a decent player and the rotations of most of the classes are way too simple, WoW classic is just a gimmick for most players, the only ones that remain are the ones who mistakenly think the game was better, the game was new back then now its not, current retail is the best version of the game and offers the most content.

[Drudi]

« LFD is a tool that gives easy access so you dont have to do the tedious work, there are no downsides»

Except than changing a MMO into a lobby game? Yeah, there are no downsides

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“ "LF1M TANK FOR DAILY" spam == Community”

Part of it, yes. Because people get interested either in private or public, or start discussing in public this particular dungeon and what kind of tank is best there and wherever you need some better gear etc etc. All of this is part of human to human interaction.

[Gorged]

“ "LF1M TANK FOR DAILY" spam == Community”

Part of it, yes. Because people get interested either in private or public, or start discussing in public this particular dungeon and what kind of tank is best there and wherever you need some better gear etc etc. All of this is part of human to human interaction.

When has that ever happened in Classic or Classic TBC? Go on Gehenass EU and try it oh wait it wont happen because that chat moves so fast you need an addon to see anything posted.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

There are tons of contributing factors, but most companies don't get the chance to go back and re-do something like this. So since they have that opportunity, I understand their desire to want to make changes and see what the outcome is: for better or worse.

Kind of a silly reason. As many pointed out here finder didn't pop into wotlk until the very end. So most of this "experiment" would be taking place during a period when the finder wasn't a thing. Also it would mean they would need several expansions worth of data to actually understand it which would mean they would need to green light to probably MOP at the very least for it to be meaningful in anyway.

Naw... it's pretty obvious they just pulled something out of thier hat to announce for some sort of 50/50 ball which is fine for them to do.. but let's not window dress this up as some big relive the past grand experiment to change the world in a new future. It's just a shot in the dark. Plan an simple. One that some will love, some will hate, and one most people probably won't be to bothered with whichever way it lands.

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You're correct, but it gets even worse that they're not even adding in dungeon finder with ICC. It's never going into Wrath Classic.

I actually wouldn't mind finder not being in for max level. Where I liked it was when leveling characters and being able to que up for specific 5 man's while leveling to knock out a rack of quests. Or doing some randoms while leveling. I do kind of fear without the finder pretty much all the old instances are just totally dead content. Just easier to skip while out in the world to level or you never even end up crossing into them. Just a real shame all that past stuff will be, mostly, a ghost town when it could be used and see still.

I get the downsides to it at max level being a thing that can kill the late game in the current expansion. To where everyone is just sitting in Dal qued up for example. But early game I don't see the damage. It's not like a large enough army of alts and new people will be smashing though the classic world to make it some huge living thing either way.

[Celarent]

That and it would be nice to be able to queue straight into the levelling dungeons of Wrath from the start. A lot of People skip Nexus, Azjol nerub, Draktharon etc. just because halting your levelling process to go sit somewhere and spam "LFG" for 30+ mins is just meh.

If you're a healer or tank, you can pull DPS in quickly, then fit the last player in with the leverage of LF1M. Whole group will be set in 90 seconds if you start with healer and tank. If you're DPS, you don't flail about with LFG. You keep your eye on the bulletin board and whisper when something pops up. Wrath won't have TBC's class stigma, either.

[Soimu]

Best thing added in the game was the LFG/LFR tool. Spamming in chat and trying to build a team was a stupid thing and was only fun in the early days of wow.

[Northern Goblin]

The addition of the WotLK Group Finder tool was one of the first steps that many people consider as the start of WoW's downtrend in playerbase. It definitely contributed to the servers feeling much smaller and mattering less, as you no longer needed to rely on just your server in order to get things done. You didn't even need a guild anymore to see content. It started to diminish WoW's social experience, which seems to be something the people in charge of Classic are trying to avoid.

The downtrend was because they released an absolutely awful expansion in Cataclysm, where most of the development time was spent on levelling content for people's alts (if they chose to play them)

LFD is a convenient scapegoat for coming out at the same time, you know what also came out at the same time as the subs declining? Transmogrification, yet no one seems to blame that for the game's decline.

Not relying on your server was a good thing, some servers were small to near dead, but people didn't want to leave their dwindling communities for a variety of reasons, but that should never be cause for locking them out of the game's content because they are unable to get groups.

Also WoW's social experience is a total myth, you only need to look at TBC classic's LFG channels to see how little social interaction there is in spamming "LF Tank/Healer MGT H" followed by a 15-20 minute dungeon run where the most anyone says is "hi" at the start and "thanks, cya" at the end.


The reason random heroic won't be in at the start of Wrath is to stop people badge farming and getting heroic epics without lockout restrictions (which random dungeon finder bypassed) and being overgeared day one. This social interaction argument is a successful coverup to avoiding the early unwanted implications of the heroic dungeon finder system. Watch it get added later, and it won't be because Blizzard suddenly stopped caring about "social interaction".

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The downtrend was because they released an absolutely awful expansion in Cataclysm, where most of the development time was spent on levelling content for people's alts (if they chose to play them)

LFD is a convenient scapegoat for coming out at the same time, you know what also came out at the same time as the subs declining? Transmogrification, yet no one seems to blame that for the game's decline.

Not relying on your server was a good thing, some servers were small to near dead, but people didn't want to leave their dwindling communities for a variety of reasons, but that should never be cause for locking them out of the game's content because they are unable to get groups.

Also WoW's social experience is a total myth, you only need to look at TBC classic's LFG channels to see how little social interaction there is in spamming "LF Tank/Healer MGT H" followed by a 15-20 minute dungeon run where the most anyone says is "hi" at the start and "thanks, cya" at the end.


The reason random heroic won't be in at the start of Wrath is to stop people badge farming and getting heroic epics without lockout restrictions (which random dungeon finder bypassed) and being overgeared day one. This social interaction argument is a successful coverup to avoiding the early unwanted implications of the heroic dungeon finder system. Watch it get added later, and it won't be because Blizzard suddenly stopped caring about "social interaction".

All pretty true. Some people like to pretend it is some grand social experience to type "LFTank" and then inviting them and saying "hi" or "summon" or "123" and then utter silence going forward. Simply not true. Really all it boils down to is a ton of spam that people often don't want to see. Like you said the game decline was because Cata released and turned a lot of people off. Not to mention it had INSANE patched cycles. Had to trap people into subbing for a year with "free" Diablo 3. Yeah.. finder didnt do this to WoW. Probably the safest bet is Cata did it to WoW.