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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Since they will likely release Wrath on 3.3.5's patch like they did with previous Classics "final patch" patches, it would make no sense to keep LFD gone until ICC. Since the framework for it would already be there.

    That and it would be nice to be able to queue straight into the levelling dungeons of Wrath from the start. A lot of People skip Nexus, Azjol nerub, Draktharon etc. just because halting your levelling process to go sit somewhere and spam "LFG" for 30+ mins is just meh.
    You're correct, but it gets even worse that they're not even adding in dungeon finder with ICC. It's never going into Wrath Classic.

  2. #382
    They just hate that with RDF, average Joes now have the power to get epics and actually progress without sucking off the people who have a deathgrip on the server. The google spreadsheet owners with editing access. RDF would take that away and it terrifies them.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    Talk about confirmation bias. lol

    the LFD tool will be essential in cutting back on boosting if they don't implement something like what they did with SoM and should be included in the game
    Its not confirmation bias. There is legit no other information on what would happen without it added in WotLK. Even with it being added later, it was added the first time. So not doing it this time is a chance for them to see what the effects are.

    People who play for classic are still gonna play it regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Simple reason WoW loses players is you cant always have time to play games, as a game gets old it loses players and some new players may not like an older game so its pretty obvious its going to lose players over time, no feature in the game is the reason why subs are dropping, vanilla to wotlk is around 6 years so thats a long time for things to change for a player.

    WoW is just an older game, its gameplay doesnt change much so can get boring and the content remains mostly the same each expansion with a few differences so that has more to do with players staying subbed rather than a specific tool or so.
    Maybe for retail --- I don't think the same is true for classic, because a lot of people have done all of this before. And classic's content does hold up, as shown by its popularity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    I'm sure that was the only change that occurred and it is a scientific fact that it was in fact the only thing that caused it all to come undone. To the path to a game that had fewer people but ended up more profitable then ever. Even to this day. Its funny. You can twist anything to hit an objective.

    I am not to for or against the finder. More people that just make shit up to be either for or against it. Or take one little bit and expand it into a universe of evidence. Just not the case. FF has a finder and seems to be doing alright. I doubt Finder is the direct cause of anything going wrong. Probably has something more to do with quality of the product and targeting the right audience for success.
    There are tons of contributing factors, but most companies don't get the chance to go back and re-do something like this. So since they have that opportunity, I understand their desire to want to make changes and see what the outcome is: for better or worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by deniter View Post
    If players don't want to go in dungeons the problem is in a game play, not in the way to look for groups. In vanilla, you could find yourself in a situation where your gear was so bad you couldn't kill even non-elite mobs of your own level. Gear came from dungeons, so if you didn't run dungeons you could hit the brick wall at some point. The game was designed the way that players really wanted to run dungeons, no matter what.

    Fast forward to TBC and WotLK, you'll get all gear necessary to level up from quests. Period. Dungeons are nice and give some blue loot but are not really vital for reaching the level cap. In that sense, who gives a shit if you find groups by queuing in an automated LFG tool or by spamming a chat channel ad nauseam. The former is just more efficient and less time consuming method, which all this is naturally all about.

    I'm looking forward to WotLK Classic but, to be honest, i'd take WoW vanilla any day of the week.
    Dungeons are not often worth the effort to get a group sometimes, LFD is a tool that gives easy access so you dont have to do the tedious work, there are no downsides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    Maybe for retail --- I don't think the same is true for classic, because a lot of people have done all of this before. And classic's content does hold up, as shown by its popularity.
    Classics content doesnt hold up, its far too easy for a decent player and the rotations of most of the classes are way too simple, WoW classic is just a gimmick for most players, the only ones that remain are the ones who mistakenly think the game was better, the game was new back then now its not, current retail is the best version of the game and offers the most content.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  5. #385
    « LFD is a tool that gives easy access so you dont have to do the tedious work, there are no downsides»

    Except than changing a MMO into a lobby game? Yeah, there are no downsides

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    “ "LF1M TANK FOR DAILY" spam == Community”

    Part of it, yes. Because people get interested either in private or public, or start discussing in public this particular dungeon and what kind of tank is best there and wherever you need some better gear etc etc. All of this is part of human to human interaction.

  6. #386
    Stood in the Fire Gorged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    “ "LF1M TANK FOR DAILY" spam == Community”

    Part of it, yes. Because people get interested either in private or public, or start discussing in public this particular dungeon and what kind of tank is best there and wherever you need some better gear etc etc. All of this is part of human to human interaction.
    When has that ever happened in Classic or Classic TBC? Go on Gehenass EU and try it oh wait it wont happen because that chat moves so fast you need an addon to see anything posted.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    There are tons of contributing factors, but most companies don't get the chance to go back and re-do something like this. So since they have that opportunity, I understand their desire to want to make changes and see what the outcome is: for better or worse.
    Kind of a silly reason. As many pointed out here finder didn't pop into wotlk until the very end. So most of this "experiment" would be taking place during a period when the finder wasn't a thing. Also it would mean they would need several expansions worth of data to actually understand it which would mean they would need to green light to probably MOP at the very least for it to be meaningful in anyway.

    Naw... it's pretty obvious they just pulled something out of thier hat to announce for some sort of 50/50 ball which is fine for them to do.. but let's not window dress this up as some big relive the past grand experiment to change the world in a new future. It's just a shot in the dark. Plan an simple. One that some will love, some will hate, and one most people probably won't be to bothered with whichever way it lands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeh View Post
    You're correct, but it gets even worse that they're not even adding in dungeon finder with ICC. It's never going into Wrath Classic.
    I actually wouldn't mind finder not being in for max level. Where I liked it was when leveling characters and being able to que up for specific 5 man's while leveling to knock out a rack of quests. Or doing some randoms while leveling. I do kind of fear without the finder pretty much all the old instances are just totally dead content. Just easier to skip while out in the world to level or you never even end up crossing into them. Just a real shame all that past stuff will be, mostly, a ghost town when it could be used and see still.

    I get the downsides to it at max level being a thing that can kill the late game in the current expansion. To where everyone is just sitting in Dal qued up for example. But early game I don't see the damage. It's not like a large enough army of alts and new people will be smashing though the classic world to make it some huge living thing either way.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    That and it would be nice to be able to queue straight into the levelling dungeons of Wrath from the start. A lot of People skip Nexus, Azjol nerub, Draktharon etc. just because halting your levelling process to go sit somewhere and spam "LFG" for 30+ mins is just meh.
    If you're a healer or tank, you can pull DPS in quickly, then fit the last player in with the leverage of LF1M. Whole group will be set in 90 seconds if you start with healer and tank. If you're DPS, you don't flail about with LFG. You keep your eye on the bulletin board and whisper when something pops up. Wrath won't have TBC's class stigma, either.

  9. #389
    Best thing added in the game was the LFG/LFR tool. Spamming in chat and trying to build a team was a stupid thing and was only fun in the early days of wow.

  10. #390
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post

    The addition of the WotLK Group Finder tool was one of the first steps that many people consider as the start of WoW's downtrend in playerbase. It definitely contributed to the servers feeling much smaller and mattering less, as you no longer needed to rely on just your server in order to get things done. You didn't even need a guild anymore to see content. It started to diminish WoW's social experience, which seems to be something the people in charge of Classic are trying to avoid.
    The downtrend was because they released an absolutely awful expansion in Cataclysm, where most of the development time was spent on levelling content for people's alts (if they chose to play them)

    LFD is a convenient scapegoat for coming out at the same time, you know what also came out at the same time as the subs declining? Transmogrification, yet no one seems to blame that for the game's decline.

    Not relying on your server was a good thing, some servers were small to near dead, but people didn't want to leave their dwindling communities for a variety of reasons, but that should never be cause for locking them out of the game's content because they are unable to get groups.

    Also WoW's social experience is a total myth, you only need to look at TBC classic's LFG channels to see how little social interaction there is in spamming "LF Tank/Healer MGT H" followed by a 15-20 minute dungeon run where the most anyone says is "hi" at the start and "thanks, cya" at the end.


    The reason random heroic won't be in at the start of Wrath is to stop people badge farming and getting heroic epics without lockout restrictions (which random dungeon finder bypassed) and being overgeared day one. This social interaction argument is a successful coverup to avoiding the early unwanted implications of the heroic dungeon finder system. Watch it get added later, and it won't be because Blizzard suddenly stopped caring about "social interaction".


    Sports and Fitness mod, Brit with weird sleeping hours.
    Has good taste in ale, bad taste in D&D choices.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    The downtrend was because they released an absolutely awful expansion in Cataclysm, where most of the development time was spent on levelling content for people's alts (if they chose to play them)

    LFD is a convenient scapegoat for coming out at the same time, you know what also came out at the same time as the subs declining? Transmogrification, yet no one seems to blame that for the game's decline.

    Not relying on your server was a good thing, some servers were small to near dead, but people didn't want to leave their dwindling communities for a variety of reasons, but that should never be cause for locking them out of the game's content because they are unable to get groups.

    Also WoW's social experience is a total myth, you only need to look at TBC classic's LFG channels to see how little social interaction there is in spamming "LF Tank/Healer MGT H" followed by a 15-20 minute dungeon run where the most anyone says is "hi" at the start and "thanks, cya" at the end.


    The reason random heroic won't be in at the start of Wrath is to stop people badge farming and getting heroic epics without lockout restrictions (which random dungeon finder bypassed) and being overgeared day one. This social interaction argument is a successful coverup to avoiding the early unwanted implications of the heroic dungeon finder system. Watch it get added later, and it won't be because Blizzard suddenly stopped caring about "social interaction".
    All pretty true. Some people like to pretend it is some grand social experience to type "LFTank" and then inviting them and saying "hi" or "summon" or "123" and then utter silence going forward. Simply not true. Really all it boils down to is a ton of spam that people often don't want to see. Like you said the game decline was because Cata released and turned a lot of people off. Not to mention it had INSANE patched cycles. Had to trap people into subbing for a year with "free" Diablo 3. Yeah.. finder didnt do this to WoW. Probably the safest bet is Cata did it to WoW.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    If you're a healer or tank, you can pull DPS in quickly, then fit the last player in with the leverage of LF1M. Whole group will be set in 90 seconds if you start with healer and tank. If you're DPS, you don't flail about with LFG. You keep your eye on the bulletin board and whisper when something pops up. Wrath won't have TBC's class stigma, either.
    Yeah, I've seen enough groups with tanks and 3 DPS or healers and 3 DPS sit around for an hour to know that's very often complete bullshit. I've also been whispered on DPS by groups struggling to find a 2nd/3rd DPS so much they resort to begging people halfway across the continent enough to know that even if you were leveling with a tank and healer 90 seconds is often not even remotely close.

    People are also so focused on Wrath they haven't even considered the secondary impact, which is that Wrath leveling and classes are so much smoother than every dungeon besides WC/VS/Stocks and SM became a complete ghost town. LFD saved dungeons because they'd become near un-runable.

    This whole thing is stupid as hell. It's A-okay for dozens of mages to be spam running instances, AoE power-leveling players and spamming global channels to hell, it's a struggle to find any sort of non turbo-reserved run, and gDKP dominates the PuG scene so much that all gear is basically just bought with gold... but LFD is what's going to ruin the community of Wrath classic. What a fucking joke.

  13. #393
    I remember when it came out in Wrath and people loved it. never heard nobody complain about it. I think people started to hate it in Cata. First dungeons were hard and then RF came out. I remember it was impossible ot pug some heroic dungeons in Cata because they were so hard. Wrath you just hit your AoE button. Much easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azsune View Post
    They did add the teleport to dungeon in WotLK. Not sure if it was at the start of WotLK but I think it was. I know people are theorising without the tool questing will probably be faster as there was an EXP bonus for using it over entering on your own.

    A lot of people see it as the start of reduced required social interaction. When I compare my experience from Retail to Classic my guild is a lot closer and do more together than my Retail guild ever did. Another thing is people don't ditch groups as fast when something goes wrong, in retail a tank may just drop the group and instantly find a new dungeon group teleported there if he feels it is to slow.

    I kind of want it and don't want it. Leveling becomes much more enjoyable when you teleport to dungeons and find groups while questing. But it feels like a step in reduced social interaction that we have in Retail.
    The teleport wasn't in at the start. I think it was added when ICC came out or shortly before.

  14. #394
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    it's a struggle to find any sort of non turbo-reserved run.
    Likely one of the reasons people are against RDF, you can't reserve loot in them.


    Sports and Fitness mod, Brit with weird sleeping hours.
    Has good taste in ale, bad taste in D&D choices.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    People are also so focused on Wrath they haven't even considered the secondary impact, which is that Wrath leveling and classes are so much smoother than every dungeon besides WC/VS/Stocks and SM became a complete ghost town. LFD saved dungeons because they'd become near un-runable.
    We're talking about two things, looks like. I was responding to Azjol-Nerub and other Northrend 5-mans.

    And I do remember pre-LFD Old World. I'm just not sure the problem is the difficulty of assembling groups, or that in a Classic game two expansions removed, players are expected to spend the original amount of time leveling to enter Northrend.

    Probably too late for Blizzard to mastermind a system that allows players to level multiple characters 10x faster without bot issues.

    But at the same time, the travails of somebody's 8th toon on the long road to 68 in a venue where *everyone* is there to play 3.0 does not seem like a great urgency.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    The downtrend was because they released an absolutely awful expansion in Cataclysm, where most of the development time was spent on levelling content for people's alts (if they chose to play them)

    LFD is a convenient scapegoat for coming out at the same time, you know what also came out at the same time as the subs declining? Transmogrification, yet no one seems to blame that for the game's decline.

    Not relying on your server was a good thing, some servers were small to near dead, but people didn't want to leave their dwindling communities for a variety of reasons, but that should never be cause for locking them out of the game's content because they are unable to get groups.

    Also WoW's social experience is a total myth, you only need to look at TBC classic's LFG channels to see how little social interaction there is in spamming "LF Tank/Healer MGT H" followed by a 15-20 minute dungeon run where the most anyone says is "hi" at the start and "thanks, cya" at the end.


    The reason random heroic won't be in at the start of Wrath is to stop people badge farming and getting heroic epics without lockout restrictions (which random dungeon finder bypassed) and being overgeared day one. This social interaction argument is a successful coverup to avoiding the early unwanted implications of the heroic dungeon finder system. Watch it get added later, and it won't be because Blizzard suddenly stopped caring about "social interaction".
    There was a multitude of reasons, but most people have tracked its start at 3.3 ---- things like the justice badges, wintergrasp imbalances, LFG were all contributing factors to people wanting to leave the game. Cataclysm didn't help and continued the downward path.

    But to claim something like transmogrification, which has zero impact on social interaction (swapping the visuals of your gear for other visuals) would have a similar impact to something like LFG, which directly impacts social interaction (ability to find a group) is a straw man argument. Apples to Oranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Kind of a silly reason. As many pointed out here finder didn't pop into wotlk until the very end. So most of this "experiment" would be taking place during a period when the finder wasn't a thing. Also it would mean they would need several expansions worth of data to actually understand it which would mean they would need to green light to probably MOP at the very least for it to be meaningful in anyway.

    Naw... it's pretty obvious they just pulled something out of thier hat to announce for some sort of 50/50 ball which is fine for them to do.. but let's not window dress this up as some big relive the past grand experiment to change the world in a new future. It's just a shot in the dark. Plan an simple. One that some will love, some will hate, and one most people probably won't be to bothered with whichever way it lands.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I actually wouldn't mind finder not being in for max level. Where I liked it was when leveling characters and being able to que up for specific 5 man's while leveling to knock out a rack of quests. Or doing some randoms while leveling. I do kind of fear without the finder pretty much all the old instances are just totally dead content. Just easier to skip while out in the world to level or you never even end up crossing into them. Just a real shame all that past stuff will be, mostly, a ghost town when it could be used and see still.

    I get the downsides to it at max level being a thing that can kill the late game in the current expansion. To where everyone is just sitting in Dal qued up for example. But early game I don't see the damage. It's not like a large enough army of alts and new people will be smashing though the classic world to make it some huge living thing either way.
    This is just straight up false, because 3.3 introduced 3 new heroic 5 man dungeons. On top of the length of duration the end of WotLK had, it had plenty of time to impact players.

    3.3 came out Dec 8th
    3.3.5 came out Jun 22nd
    Cataclysm came out Dec 7th

    So you are gonna argue that for a whole year, this had no impact on the community? I can't even.

    Not only was there new 5 man content at the start, it would have been used for alts to level up with as well. And lasted an entire year before Cataclysm came out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  17. #397
    Happened all the time back in 2006-2008. Before the game and community changed

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by kirzan View Post
    They just hate that with RDF, average Joes now have the power to get epics and actually progress without sucking off the people who have a deathgrip on the server. The google spreadsheet owners with editing access. RDF would take that away and it terrifies them.
    Are you high? We are talking about a dungeon finder rooooooooooooofl.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Soimu View Post
    Best thing added in the game was the LFG/LFR tool. Spamming in chat and trying to build a team was a stupid thing and was only fun in the early days of wow.
    No it wasn’t. Back then we didn’t just have a /4 channel for actually finding group mates. We even maintained custom channels - and invited there people that proven to be good mates - as alternative to /4. And it worked perfectly.

    You know, the interaction between actual people. Something that MMO implies.

  20. #400
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    I disliked queuing for BGs from everywhere, I disliked cross-realm BGs and I disliked Dungeon finder.

    The server I used to play on was full, and everyone knew everyone. With all those implementations they gutted that feeling of belonging to something, and made it in to a 3D rendition of a server browser, with everyone just sitting in cities, waiting for a queue to pop.

    At least that's my take on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

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