Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[Ragedaug]

Not going to lie I love the changes they are planning for the new dungeons. To me, it seems they are listening at least a little bit. Keeping dungeons relevant throughout the entire expansion in order to keep the replayability up seems like a really really nice change. Making naxx a little harder is also a decent change, I don’t think it needs to be super difficult but the release nax was an actual joke, I remember farming it in nothing but TBC gear.

I still don’t see the issue with LFD tho.

Dungeons in Wrath were relevant the entire expansion. Same in Cata. They tied farming to dungeons and made it easy to get into a dungeon, and queues were full with folks running them to the end of the Xpac. Once they removed Rep gains and badges/emblems farming that's when folks stopped caring so much. That's what concerns me with the changes they are making. They are making changes to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Dungeons aren't relevant in TBC right now, yes. But we know from history that Wrath already fixed that. The fixes they are talking about now sound more like what they did the last time after Wrath, and I'm very skeptical that it's going to make anything better.

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There is a very big difference between these two things:

1. Stating you have a preference and advocating for it.
2. Arguing that your preference is objectively superior and denying the reality of how it impacts other people with different preferences, and then insisting everyone with a different preference has secret ulterior motives.

You keep doing 2 while insisting you are doing 1.

I mean, arguing how my preference is objectively superior while denying it will have negative impacts is how I advocate for it. I mean, that's basically "pros and cons", right? So there's no actual difference between 1 and 2.

Now it is fair to call me out for insisting folks have a secret ulterior motive. I've never been a fan of assuming motivations. In this case the reason I'm doing it is because I'm trying to understand 'why' and folks aren't saying. The reasons given don't make any sense to me. Like, we've been doing PVP for how many years now in Classic with insta-porting and cross-realm grouping and literally no one cares. I mean, if you can find a thread where someone's like, "we need to remove BG queueing and folks need to form their groups manually and head to AV", I'm all ears, I just have never heard anyone complain about it. So when every complaint about Dungeon Finder can also be equally applied to BG queueing, but no one cares about BG queuing, I can only suspect the real reason is something different.

Can you give me a reason it's bad to queue for dungeons while great to queue for BGs, other than, "Blizzard says so"?

[Katchii]

Why not quit playing the game if you consider playing it a waste of time?

Sitting in chat for however long it takes to find a group, when finding a group is literally the only thing you want to do IS a waste of time.

I remember WotLK original, wasting hours in chat trying to find groups for the dungeons I needed drops from and getting nowhere. That's not "playing the game" that's just being logged in TRYING to play the game.

[NineSpine]

I mean, arguing how my preference is objectively superior while denying it will have negative impacts is how I advocate for it. I mean, that's basically "pros and cons", right? So there's no actual difference between 1 and 2.

Yes, there is a difference, because instead of admitting that for people who prefer manual group making the LFD tool will dry up the community for that, you translate that into ulterior motives for the people who prefer manual group making in order to obfuscate the negative effect it will have on them.

Now it is fair to call me out for insisting folks have a secret ulterior motive. I've never been a fan of assuming motivations. In this case the reason I'm doing it is because I'm trying to understand 'why' and folks aren't saying. The reasons given don't make any sense to me. Like, we've been doing PVP for how many years now in Classic with insta-porting and cross-realm grouping and literally no one cares. I mean, if you can find a thread where someone's like, "we need to remove BG queueing and folks need to form their groups manually and head to AV", I'm all ears, I just have never heard anyone complain about it. So when every complaint about Dungeon Finder can also be equally applied to BG queueing, but no one cares about BG queuing, I can only suspect the real reason is something different.

Can you give me a reason it's bad to queue for dungeons while great to queue for BGs, other than, "Blizzard says so"?

BG groups are very large so the implications of organizing them are quite different. That's why arena being manual and BGs being automated makes sense. If BGs had large groups and required a lot of coordination, like raids, it would make sense to require manual group forming, but that isn't the case. If dungeons were 10 man, I think we'd be having a very different conversation.

The problem here is we keep going in a loop because you insist that since you like LFD it is objectively superior. Nobody is ever going to convince you otherwise, because you have this condescending attitude that your preference is objectively superior and you expect someone to prove that absurd assumption wrong. It would be like me saying that hamburgers are objectively better tasting than hot dogs and then demanding hot dog fans prove I'm wrong. They can't, because my fundamental assumption that my preference is an objective reality is flawed. It's just a subjective opinion.

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Sitting in chat for however long it takes to find a group, when finding a group is literally the only thing you want to do IS a waste of time.

I remember WotLK original, wasting hours in chat trying to find groups for the dungeons I needed drops from and getting nowhere. That's not "playing the game" that's just being logged in TRYING to play the game.

And that's why they are improving the group finder.

[Woods123]

Dungeons in Wrath were relevant the entire expansion. Same in Cata. They tied farming to dungeons and made it easy to get into a dungeon, and queues were full with folks running them to the end of the Xpac. Once they removed Rep gains and badges/emblems farming that's when folks stopped caring so much. That's what concerns me with the changes they are making. They are making changes to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Dungeons aren't relevant in TBC right now, yes. But we know from history that Wrath already fixed that. The fixes they are talking about now sound more like what they did the last time after Wrath, and I'm very skeptical that it's going to make anything better.

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I mean, arguing how my preference is objectively superior while denying it will have negative impacts is how I advocate for it. I mean, that's basically "pros and cons", right? So there's no actual difference between 1 and 2.

Now it is fair to call me out for insisting folks have a secret ulterior motive. I've never been a fan of assuming motivations. In this case the reason I'm doing it is because I'm trying to understand 'why' and folks aren't saying. The reasons given don't make any sense to me. Like, we've been doing PVP for how many years now in Classic with insta-porting and cross-realm grouping and literally no one cares. I mean, if you can find a thread where someone's like, "we need to remove BG queueing and folks need to form their groups manually and head to AV", I'm all ears, I just have never heard anyone complain about it. So when every complaint about Dungeon Finder can also be equally applied to BG queueing, but no one cares about BG queuing, I can only suspect the real reason is something different.

Can you give me a reason it's bad to queue for dungeons while great to queue for BGs, other than, "Blizzard says so"?

Tbh wrath dungeons were relevant but only one per day, any farming after that (on your main at least) was just for badges to get the older pvp sets, gems, or other nonsense. It sounds like they are making actually farming heroics relevant to end game, which is great imo.

[NineSpine]

Tbh wrath dungeons were relevant but only one per day, any farming after that (on your main at least) was just for badges to get the older pvp sets, gems, or other nonsense. It sounds like they are making actually farming heroics relevant to end game, which is great imo.

I'd really like a system where there is a very highly tuned difficulty of the dungeons to run once per week each. That's what I wanted from M+, but instead got the total shitshow that is M+.

[Celarent]

Like, we've been doing PVP for how many years now in Classic with insta-porting and cross-realm grouping and literally no one cares.

It's more that players just accept BGs as an impersonal, console-style grind venue. Not surprisingly, they go out of their way to bring along friends whether it tilts in their favor or not.

As far as game experience, queued stuff doesn't old a candle to spontaneous/world PVP. Speaking of Wrath, For the Alliance!/Horde! achievements always, *always* had players going "WHERE ARE THEY??" on Trade when Local Defense would start to ping. Players love that, because in the end this is an MMO. (Or was.)

[Katchii]

And that's why they are improving the group finder.

I am optimistic that it will help address the problem. I would have much rather had the actual LFG tool, but not having it isn't a deal breaker for me. My experience in Classic has generally been pretty positive as far as being able to find groups, especially at max level. But I like the easy group creator aspect of LFG. If they had limited the pool of players to each specific realm I don't really see how it could have been THAT detrimental.

[tomten]

Blizzard does. That's why they have explicitly stated who these players are and what they want.

I guarantee of those 300k, not everyone wants a version without LFG. So very disgennous to state that number

Since then, their design goals have changed and are more in line with what I want, which is great for me, but bad for the demographic for whom fidelity was the top priority. I get why they are upset that there are some changes now, because their PREFERENCES are different from mine, but unfortunately for them Blizzard changed their idea of who the core audience is. This isn't complicated. It doesn't require all kinds of conspiracies and shit. It's very, very, very simple:

You. Are. Not. The. Target. Audience.

Exactly, their design goals changed because neither blizzard or the players really know what they want until they either have or dont have it.
But you do realize its just a matter of time before LFG does come to wrath? You're not gonna be without it. So why champion it so hard?
Will you and the others quit when it comes 3-6 months after launch?

[Ragedaug]

Tbh wrath dungeons were relevant but only one per day, any farming after that (on your main at least) was just for badges to get the older pvp sets, gems, or other nonsense. It sounds like they are making actually farming heroics relevant to end game, which is great imo.

I suppose it depends on whether you play one character or like to play alts. So just speaking for myself, I was able to level every class to 70 the first time around and had they all ICC pug ready by farming dungeons. Right now, I have only one character that can pug SWP.

But just in terms of repeatable farm content, Wrath dungeons were the pinnacle for me. There's no other farm content I looked forward to do like I did running dungeons for gear catch-up and rep gains.

[NineSpine]

I guarantee of those 300k, not everyone wants a version without LFG. So very disgennous to state that number

Exactly, their design goals changed because neither blizzard or the players really know what they want until they either have or dont have it.
But you do realize its just a matter of time before LFG does come to wrath? You're not gonna be without it. So why champion it so hard?
Will you and the others quit when it comes 3-6 months after launch?

I don't particularly care very much if they add LFD. It doesn't impact the way I play the game. I'm just addressing these insane responses from people that are fundamentally unable to understand that different people like different things and classic may have a target audience that isn't them.

[Ragedaug]

It's more that players just accept BGs as an impersonal, console-style grind venue. Not surprisingly, they go out of their way to bring along friends whether it tilts in their favor or not.

As far as game experience, queued stuff doesn't old a candle to spontaneous/world PVP. Speaking of Wrath, For the Alliance!/Horde! achievements always, *always* had players going "WHERE ARE THEY??" on Trade when Local Defense would start to ping. Players love that, because in the end this is an MMO. (Or was.)

That's the funny part. PVP is far more player to player engaging then dungeons. But back to my point, why it that acceptable, and the other is not? Both are cooperative group content in the same game.

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I don't particularly care very much if they add LFD. It doesn't impact the way I play the game. I'm just addressing these insane responses from people that are fundamentally unable to understand that different people like different things and classic may have a target audience that isn't them.

All they have to do is explain it. I don't see how it's "insane" for me to ask for an explanation. I completely understand that different people like different things. But those people don't like PVE queuing, have no problem with PVP'ing queuing.

I've heard reasons like, they don't like that you get teleported to the dungeon. Well, that's already a thing. Only 2 people have to go the the dungeon. The other 3 are "magically" teleported there. Then the mage in group, "magically" teleports them back to the capital when they are done. Or that they want it restricted to server, so 1) would they be OK with DF restricted to server? I could compromise with that. and 2) why don't they have a problem with PVP not restricted to server? You attempted to answer that PVP involved more people, but all you are doing is making a case that Raid Finder should be included. Also, 2v2 areas does not involve more people, yet we queue and teleport and play against people on other servers, and once again, none of the DF-haters have a problem with that.

[danki1337]

Nah removing it is a good choice. LFD and LFR were mistakes that permanently damaged the game.

wait till you play on a server that slowly dies and now youre sitting there having to pay 25 euros to move to a new server because you cant find a tank but the queue system would fix it.

the lfd wouldnt hurt anyone who has a community or guild or friends, but if anything help these servers or ppl leveling or just wanting to do profs durinig queue time just like you do for a bg, it does not add or negate anything if you use it or not, but it does add value to those who do.

[NineSpine]

All they have to do is explain it. I don't see how it's "insane" for me to ask for an explanation. I completely understand that different people like different things. But those people don't like PVE queuing, have no problem with PVP'ing queuing.

I just explained it to you.

I've heard reasons like, they don't like that you get teleported to the dungeon. Well, that's already a thing. Only 2 people have to go the the dungeon. The other 3 are "magically" teleported there. Then the mage in group, "magically" teleports them back to the capital when they are done. Or that they want it restricted to server, so 1) would they be OK with DF restricted to server? I could compromise with that. and 2) why don't they have a problem with PVP not restricted to server? You attempted to answer that PVP involved more people, but all you are doing is making a case that Raid Finder should be included. Also, 2v2 areas does not involve more people, yet we queue and teleport and play against people on other servers, and once again, none of the DF-haters have a problem with that.

It has all been explained already, over and over again. It's getting really obnoxious how instead of simply responding to those explanations you just assert they don't exist.

[Relapses]

wait till you play on a server that slowly dies and now youre sitting there having to pay 25 euros to move to a new server because you cant find a tank but the queue system would fix it.

the lfd wouldnt hurt anyone who has a community or guild or friends, but if anything help these servers or ppl leveling or just wanting to do profs durinig queue time just like you do for a bg, it does not add or negate anything if you use it or not, but it does add value to those who do.

There are other ways to solve that particular issue than the LFG. Re-introducing cross-realm would have the same effect. However, with Blizzard actively merging Classic realms right now, I'd say there's almost no possibility of CRZ coming back.

This does pose an interesting question though: If you were to choose between a LFG system and CRZ, which is more controversial?

[NineSpine]

There are other ways to solve that particular issue than the LFG. Re-introducing cross-realm would have the same effect. However, with Blizzard actively merging Classic realms right now, I'd say there's almost no possibility of CRZ coming back.

This does pose an interesting question though: If you were to choose between a LFG system and CRZ, which is more controversial?

I think it is pretty clear that Blizzard would rather have a handful of jam packed servers than any other solution.

[Woods123]

I suppose it depends on whether you play one character or like to play alts. So just speaking for myself, I was able to level every class to 70 the first time around and had they all ICC pug ready by farming dungeons. Right now, I have only one character that can pug SWP.

But just in terms of repeatable farm content, Wrath dungeons were the pinnacle for me. There's no other farm content I looked forward to do like I did running dungeons for gear catch-up and rep gains.

Going to get super into semantics here, but I don’t really see alt content as “replayability” don’t get me wrong, I have alts too and I love playing them.

But when I’m talking about things being relevant all expansion I’m not talking about running things with alts. Otherwise everything in the entire game is relevant for the whole expansion.

[Katchii]

Exactly, their design goals changed because neither blizzard or the players really know what they want until they either have or dont have it.
But you do realize its just a matter of time before LFG does come to wrath? You're not gonna be without it. So why champion it so hard?
Will you and the others quit when it comes 3-6 months after launch?

I'd be very surprised if they added it. They explicitly said they are making a conscious decision to NOT put it in. Adding it in would mean a complete change in design philosophy for Classic, which I just don't see happening.

Don't get me wrong, I'd welcome the change, I'm just incredibly skeptical they'd change their viewpoint on Classic design philosophy that drastically.

[tomten]

I'd be very surprised if they added it. They explicitly said they are making a conscious decision to NOT put it in. Adding it in would mean a complete change in design philosophy for Classic, which I just don't see happening.

Don't get me wrong, I'd welcome the change, I'm just incredibly skeptical they'd change their viewpoint on Classic design philosophy that drastically.

Only thing they've said is they're not putting it in at launch, nothing about not having it at all for wrath.
So many things that wasn't "possible" or a "complete design change"...and look where we are now.
The majority of players are the influx of players a launch draws, 90% of them wants lfg because they dont have time for the bullshit of making groups and spending hours per week doing nothing and second they realize its not the wrath they remember? They will quit... Blizzard will add LFG in an attempt to get the majority of PAYING customers back, which is what their business model is and who is their target audience (people who pay them cash).
And they will say it was always planned to add it in a later phase.

Why? Because they're playing both sides and making no one happy.

[NineSpine]

Only thing they've said is they're not putting it in at launch, nothing about not having it at all for wrath.
So many things that wasn't "possible" or a "complete design change"...and look where we are now.
The majority of players are the influx of players a launch draws, 90% of them wants lfg because they dont have time for the bullshit of making groups and spending hours per week doing nothing and second they realize its not the wrath they remember? They will quit... Blizzard will add LFG in an attempt to get the majority of PAYING customers back, which is what their business model is and who is their target audience (people who pay them cash).
And they will say it was always planned to add it in a later phase.

Why? Because they're playing both sides and making no one happy.

They very clearly said they aren't adding LFD during the Wrath announcement. They said nothing about "not at launch" They said no LFD and on top of that they said that LFD is contrary to their design philosophy for classic.

[BarosanuNr1]

Only thing they've said is they're not putting it in at launch, nothing about not having it at all for wrath.
So many things that wasn't "possible" or a "complete design change"...and look where we are now.

They didn't phrase it explicitly, but the discussion clearly suggested they don't intend to add it at all. Check it out (it's discussed at around 34:14). It's right before that funny moment when Ion shows that he doesn't know the very game that he's directing.