Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[Tonkaden]

Well, it's a MMO. Playing with people is the whole point. If you automate grouping and remove the need to communicate, then you're just left with a solo game with subscription and bad AI.

Huh?

"Playing with people is the whole point"

"If you automate grouping, youre left with a solo game with bad AI"

Did I miss something where if you use LFD , youre queued in with bots? When did this happen? Arent those same people still people? People overrate how much LFD removed from the process.

This is how finding a group goes. You type into trade or LookingForGroup "Need Heals and 2 DPS heroic mech". You get whispered "invi", you accept them because youre tired of waiting for players. Then in chat its said "need one to summon". You summon and you go. You hardly talk. You hardly interact. You don't know the players on your server anymore than you would in an LFD scenario. We have the same amount of players on the big servers are 4-5 wow servers back in the day. We are already cross realmed if you think about it.

If you choose to be social, you can be social , regardless of the fact that players would be on another server or not. You can talk and make friends in either scenario. Either way, you prob wont ever see those other 4 people again in most cases.

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If someone doesnt want RDF, go vanilla era and leave Wotlk for Wotlk fans.

They don't even have to do that. They simply just have to find a guild of like-minded players or simply don't use the tool.

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The nostalgia players would be long gone before the patch that would have the RDF in it anyway. It's a moot point.

The nostalgia players are long gone anyways lol. Do you honestly think there are a lot of 45-60 year olds playing as the main subset of players? Nope. These are 25 year olds that were 10 when this shit was out the first go around. They don't remember anything about the game.

[NineSpine]

The nostalgia players are long gone anyways lol. Do you honestly think there are a lot of 45-60 year olds playing as the main subset of players? Nope. These are 25 year olds that were 10 when this shit was out the first go around. They don't remember anything about the game.

I have no demographic data and neither do you, but almost everyone that I have played classic with is in their 30s or 40s.

[Tonkaden]

I have no demographic data and neither do you, but almost everyone that I have played classic with is in their 30s or 40s.

Youre demographic is vastly different than mine then. Im 41 and in the minority. Most of my guild is in their early to mid 20s. I guess experiences will vary, but not from what ive seen across vanilla and tbc so far. Im the GM and have had probably over 200 people in the guild since vanilla and they have all been younger. I know its a small sample size , but still.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

What is an RDF?

Random Dungeon Finder, FFXIV has probably the most elaborate RDF of most all the MMOs where it can scale you down to lower content, tons of que options, and like you said.. seems to be pretty non-toxic. Even can do it across servers and everything.

So I don't think RDF is really the problem here.

[Kralljin]

The nostalgia players are long gone anyways lol. Do you honestly think there are a lot of 45-60 year olds playing as the main subset of players? Nope. These are 25 year olds that were 10 when this shit was out the first go around. They don't remember anything about the game.

I wouldn't call them nostalgia players, but there are certainly tourists who will check it out and drop off very quickly after Wotlk is out.
Happened in Classic.
Happened in TBC.
Happens every single Retail expansion.

[Marxman]

Sure, and those people will play for two weeks and leave. Nostalgia players don't stick around. If Classic or TBC Classic didn't interest you, WoTLK isn't going to hold your attention either. You'll have a couple of weeks of a good time and then the servers will be left to the crowd that likes old school MMOs.

This is such a dismissive, ignorant take.

I absolutely guarantee you that WotLK will have more players than TBC had. I also guarantee that a larger percentage of those players will stick around, especially if LFD is implemented. WotLK is a much less obnoxious end-game than TBC. Less grinding, fewer obstacles, better gameplay. Leveling is also sped up significantly *and* easier because of the class changes. More people will actually make it to end-game, unlike Classic/TBC where half the players burnout before 60/70.

I also think it's fucking hilarious that you consider WotLK an "old school MMO". Wrath was the beginning of the hyper casual era of the game that lasted through WoD. There's almost nothing "old school" about WotLK.

[Jastall]

If there's no LFD then I'd expect them to then at least port over the retail LFG tool. It's still manual grouping but far superior to spamming chat while sitting in Dalaran. Ain't no way I'm dealing with that nonsense.

Personally I'm also annoyed that Classic hasn't become "replay this expansion" but rather "replay this expansion the way a vocal minority wanted it to be played". Wrath should be Wrath, not Wrath changed to fit the sensitivities of people who already had those fit by Classic and TBC.

[crusadernero]

Youre arguing semantics. A majority of people , including the devs, use the word classic to describe the old era which is Vanilla Classic, TBC Classic, and now Wrath Classic. Don't be obtuse man.

Not at all. Lots of changes done in WotLK was never in BC or vanilla. Yet, WotLK must for some reason fall under the "old school" category? WotLK was the most successful xpac Blizzard ever had, and thats not because it was a fully fledged vanilla experience. It had lots of things that made the game better for most people, as RDF.

Its not semantics either. If Blizzard really are serious about catering to the "old school mmo" feel & crowd, then they should do lots more with the xpac. Lots more gotta be changed & removed.

I'll play the xpac with or without RDF, but if Blizzard really wants to go the "old school" route.. Go all in then. Give us the real struggles as it was in vanilla.

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Sure, and those people will play for two weeks and leave. Nostalgia players don't stick around. If Classic or TBC Classic didn't interest you, WoTLK isn't going to hold your attention either. You'll have a couple of weeks of a good time and then the servers will be left to the crowd that likes old school MMOs.

As there were people that never played classic for X reasons, there are people that didnt bother alot with BC for X reasons. Lots of people actually prefer WotLK for many reasons and many of those probably aint because of "old school mmo" features. There were alot of things with WotLK besides RDF that werent old school at all. It was highly accessible and didnt require you to farm lots of shite outside of raiding/dungeon running as you had(have to) do in classic & BC.

What we are seeing now is the "old school mmo" ppl that stems from classic(and some degree BC) are deciding what WotLK classic should be. A xpac that in so many ways parted with lots of "ideas of old" and had millions of active players during its time back in the day.

I can live fine without RDF and take part in chat spamming if thats the peak player experience Blizzard is giving us. I did it years back, done it during classic/BC and I can perfectly fine spam in one more xpac.

But to say its good to remove it? Nah. Could they have changed it up a bit? Sure. Make it server only. Make it so when you get a grp, no one is teleported.

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If there's no LFD then I'd expect them to then at least port over the retail LFG tool. It's still manual grouping but far superior to spamming chat while sitting in Dalaran. Ain't no way I'm dealing with that nonsense.

Personally I'm also annoyed that Classic hasn't become "replay this expansion" but rather "replay this expansion the way a vocal minority wanted it to be played". Wrath should be Wrath, not Wrath changed to fit the sensitivities of people who already had those fit by Classic and TBC.

This. WotLK classic has gatekeepers coming from the classic/BC crowd that want the xpac to be in a certain way. Before classic in 2019 everyone was all about "no changes". Now suddenly with WotLK, a major change is somehow applaued.

[Kralljin]

Personally I'm also annoyed that Classic hasn't become "replay this expansion" but rather "replay this expansion the way a vocal minority wanted it to be played". Wrath should be Wrath, not Wrath changed to fit the sensitivities of people who already had those fit by Classic and TBC.

To be fair, remember how the #nochanges advocates didn't want any changes because they didn't trust Blizzard to adhere to the Classic philosophy?

I think it's a big problem with how Blizzard treats Classic (or rather Wotlk) in this regard, because the game has changed in so many more aspect than just how people form groups.
It's also something that Ion touched upon with a Cata Classic...it's not going to make suddenly a "Classic" experience by them leaving out LFR or adding some random Elite quests and so forth.

Feels like a bit they want to make Classic+, but don't have the resources so they seemingly plan to dress up future expansions as Classic+ by leaving out those some features...with mixed success i'd say.

[Dadwen]

Something that seems to keep coming up "casual" just for the record WOW was meant to be casual, it was it's main selling point, it was trying to grab people from EQ that had some life and didn't want to spend a month for half a level or sitting half their game time looking at a book of spells while trying to get some mana back, or only being maybe 2 or 3 of the classes that could solo, and it was still painfully slow, plus death meant you lost days or even weeks of XP at times, add in no instances so you had more than one group at times trying to race though a dungeon for the boss on a long spawn. WoW was the poster child for casual's at the time.

[crusadernero]

To be fair, remember how the #nochanges advocates didn't want any changes because they didn't trust Blizzard to adhere to the Classic philosophy?

I think it's a big problem with how Blizzard treats Classic (or rather Wotlk) in this regard, because the game has changed in so many more aspect than just how people form groups.
It's also something that Ion touched upon with a Cata Classic...it's not going to make suddenly a "Classic" experience by them leaving out LFR or adding some random Elite quests and so forth.

Feels like a bit they want to make Classic+, but don't have the resources so they seemingly plan to dress up future expansions as Classic+ by leaving out those some features...with mixed success i'd say.

this, so very much. The game does change alot from classic-->bc, and alot more when going from bc-->wotlk. Its even in the small things out in the world. Already now in bc classic, theres alot of quests that used to be elite quests in classic that now are non-elite quests. A small change, but at the same time it affects how interaction with people in the world works.

In classic, you more or less had to grp for them unless you were way high lvl. Now in classic BC, they can be soloed.

There are plenty of big differences between these eras of wow, not just RDF.

[DarkAmbient]

I think the world, especially classic EK/K, and how its buildt up does a much greater job in bringing people together than dungeons do. And I think we forget that.

That's true actually. When I think about friends I made back in the day, it was mostly from meeting people while out questing and levelling.

[crusadernero]

That's true actually. When I think about friends I made back in the day, it was mostly from meeting people while out questing and levelling.

Yeah, and this is easily forgotten and/or ignored. Even subtle changes out in the world from classic to BC shows how its softening up the need for grouping. CLassic had plenty of elite quests that now are non-elite and soloable.

Yet, theres still enough incentives for grouping in the base game of classic bc, but less than in classic.

[xuros]

''People need to realize this is 2022, people want easier accessibility.''

Then thats why you have Retail. Thats for you Casuals who have constant limited time. You lot of player types are the only ones upsets of this, no one else.

Sorry mate. The causals play on classic servers. The "hardcore" guilds on classic servers are just casuals with a chip on their shoulders. Not trying to be an ass about it but they just are not "hardcore" like people keep wanting to call them. Nothing in Classic, classic tbc, classic wrath is as difficult as retail mythic raiding.

[Jastall]

To be fair, remember how the #nochanges advocates didn't want any changes because they didn't trust Blizzard to adhere to the Classic philosophy?

I think it's a big problem with how Blizzard treats Classic (or rather Wotlk) in this regard, because the game has changed in so many more aspect than just how people form groups.
It's also something that Ion touched upon with a Cata Classic...it's not going to make suddenly a "Classic" experience by them leaving out LFR or adding some random Elite quests and so forth.

Feels like a bit they want to make Classic+, but don't have the resources so they seemingly plan to dress up future expansions as Classic+ by leaving out those some features...with mixed success i'd say.

I think there's a difference between pragmatic changes (IE layering in Classic servers to meet enormous initial demand) and fundamentally changing an expansion's design. Removing LFD from Wrath is just much of a change as adding it in Classic. There's tons of players who started with Wrath and have no issue with LFD but won't get to play the truer experience because Blizzard puzzlingly decides to cater to people who prefer Classic/TBC when remaking Wrath.

I do think you're on to something RE this existing in place of Classic+ but how far can they take that? Cata with no LFR or transmogging? Mists with no revamped talent system or reforging? Legion with no M+? Remaining true to the Classic design paradigms in turn damages or potentially ruins those of later expansions that people also like. It's neither a good nor sustainable solution.

Tweaks to expansions and features I could stomach- for instance making LFD realm-only, even if you then recreate the Classic problem of dead servers where nothing can happen. Ripping out signature additions wholesale is not the way however.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

If there's no LFD then I'd expect them to then at least port over the retail LFG tool. It's still manual grouping but far superior to spamming chat while sitting in Dalaran. Ain't no way I'm dealing with that nonsense.

Personally I'm also annoyed that Classic hasn't become "replay this expansion" but rather "replay this expansion the way a vocal minority wanted it to be played". Wrath should be Wrath, not Wrath changed to fit the sensitivities of people who already had those fit by Classic and TBC.

This would be a fair compromise imo.

[NineSpine]

As there were people that never played classic for X reasons, there are people that didnt bother alot with BC for X reasons. Lots of people actually prefer WotLK for many reasons and many of those probably aint because of "old school mmo" features. There were alot of things with WotLK besides RDF that werent old school at all. It was highly accessible and didnt require you to farm lots of shite outside of raiding/dungeon running as you had(have to) do in classic & BC.

What we are seeing now is the "old school mmo" ppl that stems from classic(and some degree BC) are deciding what WotLK classic should be. A xpac that in so many ways parted with lots of "ideas of old" and had millions of active players during its time back in the day.

I can live fine without RDF and take part in chat spamming if thats the peak player experience Blizzard is giving us. I did it years back, done it during classic/BC and I can perfectly fine spam in one more xpac.

But to say its good to remove it? Nah. Could they have changed it up a bit? Sure. Make it server only. Make it so when you get a grp, no one is teleported.

They aren't "removing" anything. They are leaving out one feature that would only be in for the last phase or two. You guys keep talking about this like its a critical feature throughout Wrath. It wasn't. I don't care if it was around for a year. Classic servers don't emulate patch length. The reality is that the ICC patch with RFD in it would be the tail end of Classic Wrath.

The "millions of active players" you keep referring to were there in the first year of Wrath where there was no RFD. Sub numbers didn't go up in the second year.

The idea that there is some massive contingent of players who need RFD and were going to wait until the ICC patch to play Wrath but now won't play at all is just not in line with reasonable expectations for player behavior. What we see with Classic and TBC Classic is exactly the same: The nostalgia players come in for a couple of weeks and bail, leaving the players who want an old school MMO experience. That's who keeps playing. That's who pays the bills. That's who would be left by the ICC phase anyway.

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This is such a dismissive, ignorant take.

I absolutely guarantee you that WotLK will have more players than TBC had. I also guarantee that a larger percentage of those players will stick around, especially if LFD is implemented. WotLK is a much less obnoxious end-game than TBC. Less grinding, fewer obstacles, better gameplay. Leveling is also sped up significantly *and* easier because of the class changes. More people will actually make it to end-game, unlike Classic/TBC where half the players burnout before 60/70.

I also think it's fucking hilarious that you consider WotLK an "old school MMO". Wrath was the beginning of the hyper casual era of the game that lasted through WoD. There's almost nothing "old school" about WotLK.

TBC gives a free level boost to 60 and still didn't see this massive influx that many predicted. Do you know who is still playing TBC? The people that played Classic Vanilla. The people that were waiting for TBC before getting into classic came and went in a couple of weeks and the same will happen to the people waiting for Wrath.

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Youre demographic is vastly different than mine then. Im 41 and in the minority. Most of my guild is in their early to mid 20s. I guess experiences will vary, but not from what ive seen across vanilla and tbc so far. Im the GM and have had probably over 200 people in the guild since vanilla and they have all been younger. I know its a small sample size , but still.

That's fair. Like I said, the people playing Classic are looking for a different type of game from retail, regardless of age.

[tomten]

how exactly is ur answer contributing anything, if it isn't just pure insult?

What? I was contribution how absolutely retarded his idea was and if he thinks before speaks... Who the hell even has enough entitlement to tell the entire playerbase to play at 8pm (when he wants) or dont do any content at all?
And I got infracted for saying that?
These mods are the most cancerous nazi mods on the planet and this site has gone to such a shit show.. Give me a perm ban, fuck being around this utterly pathetic place and what it has become with virgin sjw keyboard warrior mods and their simps... Holy shit.....
I don't even play wow and the way its looking, why would i?

[Jibjub]

LFD is symbolic. It was the beginning of the end of the WoW many people loved.

[DarkAmbient]

They aren't "removing" anything. They are leaving out one feature that would only be in for the last phase or two. You guys keep talking about this like its a critical feature throughout Wrath. It wasn't. I don't care if it was around for a year. Classic servers don't emulate patch length. The reality is that the ICC patch with RFD in it would be the tail end of Classic Wrath.

The reality is the features of patch 3.3.0 were in the game for 12 months out of Wrath's 25 month lifespan. I get that measuring an expansion by its patches helps to artificially minimise the extent to which the features of a later patch are used, but for those of us who still use the traditional method of measuring the passing of time, almost half of Wrath was spent enjoying the convenience of the dungeon finder.