Modern Dungeons suck! I hate what Mythic+ is doing to dungeon design.

[Sugani]

Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt so sterile. "Each zone has two dungeons, one is leveling, another is end game, they all feel the same with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing design into a very narrow path. You cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and not in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.

Dungeons used to feel like dangerous places with secrets to uncover, truly non-linear in giving the player control on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I think back to the greats and can't help but look at just how shallow these modern dungeons have become. It sucks, and I hate it.

[MoanaLisa]

Bumping this out of moderation and back onto the front page.

[Caprias]

I doubt that's the only reason for moving away from that dungeon design, even if you had something like ubrs or halls of origination in m+ there'd simply be a fastest meta route and "optional" bosses would simply be skipped, no problems with the "design of m+" there.

Maybe those dungeons just weren't as popular in ye olde days as you might think, I for sure don't miss them even though I do agree that they were "unique".

[rhorle]

You cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and not in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.

You can. Blizzard already splits raids from 1 into many wings for LFR. The same can happen in reverse for M+ where it goes from 1 to many. However Blizzard does split it for Heroic because people in random groups rarely want a long potentially hard instance. That doesn't mean that it is a zero but that most people don't want to spend that much time in an instance anymore. WotLK timewalking is indication of this. Gundrak is a good example of this. An optional boss that can be done for more timewalking badges but it is skipped 99.9% of time (if I had to guess) because it isn't worth the time to do. It isn't M+ but just the way most people want to play the game now.

Blizzard can easily design something the way you want but players will still find the most efficient route to do it after they've done it 10 times. Mystery, exploration, and discovery only happen the first time. After that it is a means to an end that won't happen if it isn't rewarding enough or forced to get other rewards. M+ for example would be a lot different if you didn't have to kill a certain percent of trash to get a reward.

[jackofwind]

Maybe those dungeons just weren't as popular in ye olde days as you might think, I for sure don't miss them even though I do agree that they were "unique".

Or maybe they actually were.

[RobertMugabe]

Well they don't need to have every dungeon be M+ capable. A good example for this is Violet Hold in Legion. They never turned it into a M+ dungeon, because it just isn't really possible.

[Myradin]

While I agree SL dungeons are lifeless, dull, and boring, I don't think mythic+ is the main problem. Heck I enjoyed the BFA dungeons. They all had a lot of character to them.

The main thing forcing the shape of dungeons is honestly player behaviour. Getting halls of origination and having a tank and healer who didn't want to do the extra bosses when you needed loot from them was a pain. It creates friction in a group, especially if elements of the party are just there for badges or whatever. Doesn't help that those needing things from the optional bosses are usually lesser geared and thus already contributing less to the group than those who'd prefer to skip.

[Celement]

I think a better option would be to bring back 10 man raids instead of longer dungeons. Tazavesh makes for a pretty shitty mythic+.

[ro9ue]

Could write an essay on thoughts about dungeon stuff but I'll just say I agree with the general premise.

[Stevano]

Glad I'm not the only one who is dissapointed with the dungeons of Shadowlands. I can't really put my finger on it but I just don't click with them. I feel absolutely no desire to do them and they feel more like a chore than entertainment. I loved the dungeons in Legion and BFA, maybe because the enemies felt familiar? Not sure. However, I do agree they feel limited to make them viable for mythic +. The only one I like a little bit, is the Other Side. Kind of confirms my point about familiar enemies.

So I do agree but not sure in what capacity.

[Zelk]

The change in dungeon design you're talking about predates Mythic+ by about 10 years

[Sugani]

While I agree SL dungeons are lifeless, dull, and boring, I don't think mythic+ is the main problem. Heck I enjoyed the BFA dungeons. They all had a lot of character to them.

The main thing forcing the shape of dungeons is honestly player behaviour. Getting halls of origination and having a tank and healer who didn't want to do the extra bosses when you needed loot from them was a pain. It creates friction in a group, especially if elements of the party are just there for badges or whatever. Doesn't help that those needing things from the optional bosses are usually lesser geared and thus already contributing less to the group than those who'd prefer to skip.

If you look back at, say, Blackrock Depths, there would be a variety of different paths to take when looking for a group. To list them, you had;

• Emperor run
• Emp. run w/princess
• Emp. run w/arena
• Emp. lava skip
• Key Skip
• Arena Farm
• Various Quest runs
• Recipe Farms

Now I'm not saying Blackrock Depths is the bar or staple; there are many negatives about it. But the point I'm making here is that the group finder still does facilitate users to specify which type of run they want to do; that way, everyone in the group is on the same page. But, Mythic+ disincentivizes designing dungeons this way. They are designed to be cookie-cutter, around the various affixes that could be active at any given time. Where players are forced into clearing trash, skips being disincentivized. Any incentive to include optional bosses, or have a variety of paths becomes lessened knowing that the defined Mythic+ path is all that matters. It ultimately creates more linear dungeons despite having the illusion of choice in what order you want to tackle the challenges.

I feel like there is a way to really make both shine. Where dungeons like 'Return to Karazhan', 'Operation: Mechagon', and 'Tazavesh, the Veiled Market' are the standard, but expanded with a variety of different paths and skips you can take throughout the dungeon. Imagine if these dungeons pulled more inspiration from the free-form non-linear nature of those older dungeons, how much better they could be.

[FelPlague]

If you look back at, say, Blackrock Depths, there would be a variety of different paths to take when looking for a group. To list them, you had;

• Emperor run
• Emp. run w/princess
• Emp. run w/arena
• Emp. lava skip
• Key Skip
• Arena Farm
• Various Quest runs
• Recipe Farms

Now I'm not saying Blackrock Depths is the bar or staple; there are many negatives about it. But the point I'm making here is that the group finder still does facilitate users to specify which type of run they want to do; that way, everyone in the group is on the same page. But, Mythic+ disincentivizes designing dungeons this way. They are designed to be cookie-cutter, around the various affixes that could be active at any given time. Where players are forced into clearing trash, skips being disincentivized. Any incentive to include optional bosses, or have a variety of paths becomes lessened knowing that the defined Mythic+ path is all that matters. It ultimately creates more linear dungeons despite having the illusion of choice in what order you want to tackle the challenges.

I feel like there is a way to really make both shine. Where dungeons like 'Return to Karazhan', 'Operation: Mechagon', and 'Tazavesh, the Veiled Market' are the standard, but expanded with a variety of different paths and skips you can take throughout the dungeon. Imagine if these dungeons pulled more inspiration from the free-form non-linear nature of those older dungeons, how much better they could be.

yeah because its a massive dungeon with like 20 bosses that could easily be split into like 5 seperate dungeons, it has nothing to do with "blizz dont design dungeons like that anymore" and has to actualy do with the fact people rather have dungeons split up into seperate dungeons instead of 1 MASSIVE dungeon.

look to mechagon and tazavesh, you can take seperate paths at parts, do them in different orders, however there is linier parts, just black blackrock you could do these bosses or those bosses, but with blackrock you HAD to do some bosses.

you can go oasis first then mail then menagerie, or you can go menagerie then mail then oasis
you can go any order on the first 3 bosses in mechagon
there is hardmodes for both these dungeons
and hell look to other dungeons, de other side, you can do the 3 bosses any oder you want
theatre of pain again, 3 bosses, any order you want.
the only reason these paths dont have names like the above is because there isnt like 50 different things so it doesent matter

also how is recipe farm and arena farm a "group"
i mean you can do that literally on live too "Lets farm only the first boss of tazavesh"
yeah you can do that, but that has nothing to do with dungeon design, and more to do with gear is much easier to get these days then back in vanilla when a best pre-raid item came from a regular boss.

this has nothing to do with "modern dungeon design" and just that making a dungeon so huge it has more bosses then all the other dungeons combined does not work really well, cause people will only do what they need and leave, so why not seperate it into multiple dungeons to make it easier for people to understand.

[bledgor]

I found BRD to be a dumb chore that I didn't ever go back to. I enjoy most of SL dungeons (tuning aside), though I am not opposed to a dungeon not being M+ compatible, just not a BRD clusterfuck style.

[Nightstalker]

OP must love those modern TBC tube dungeons. Or Wrath or Cata or . . .

[Chilela]

This is far from a M+ issue. The linear dungeon design has been the predominant style of dungeons since TBC. There were a decent number in vanilla as well, and pretty much all of them were rather fondly remembered, which is probably why Blizz decided to end up shifting to it after vanilla.

As an aside, I'm not a huge fan of SM precisely because of this shift.

[jeezusisacasual]

Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt so sterile. "Each zone has two dungeons, one is leveling, another is end game, they all feel the same with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing design into a very narrow path. You cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and not in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.

Dungeons used to feel like dangerous places with secrets to uncover, truly non-linear in giving the player control on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I think back to the greats and can't help but look at just how shallow these modern dungeons have become. It sucks, and I hate it.

In the era of meta gaming the exploration is gone and will never come back simply due to youtube alone let alone twitch or wowhead or whatever website you want to use. Everything is explored before it is released or soon there after and the only way to find that is to avoid not only the internet but also finding a group of players who want to proceed the same way. Also look at classic to see how meta gaming has changed the landscape forever so its either take a ride on this train or be left at the station.

[ablib]

The last time we got new dungeons that I remember liking were the 3 ICC ones. They were all different. In a modern M+ world, Halls of Reflection wouldn't have happened. So I can agree with the OP that M+ does have some bearing on the dullness of modern dungeons. The designers do have M+ in mind when they are designing dungeons. This is just another reason why M+ is cancer on the game.

The designers are literally thinking, "we can't add X wing for feature due to the gogogogoogo, mindless dumbfuck mentality we've instilled in the player base".

[Neuroticaine]

Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt so sterile. "Each zone has two dungeons, one is leveling, another is end game, they all feel the same with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing design into a very narrow path. You cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and not in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.

Dungeons used to feel like dangerous places with secrets to uncover, truly non-linear in giving the player control on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I think back to the greats and can't help but look at just how shallow these modern dungeons have become. It sucks, and I hate it.

I hate mega dungeons. I hate having my time wasted for no reason. A dungeon should take no longer than 30 minutes. There's a reason we have dungeons and raids as separate entities.

However, Mythic+ isn't the reason dungeons are designed the way they are, Mythic+ was just a natural progression from designing dungeons that align more with what a lot of players wanted out of them. The "Gogogo" mentality of getting dungeons done as quickly as possible has been alive and prevalent in WoW since at least The Burning Crusade.

People just want to get them over and done with.

[CalamityHeart]

Personally, I'm not really that big a fan of large, sprawling dungeon instances. Nice-looking hallways with good atmosphere are more than good enough for me. Put optional lore and secrets and mazes and stuff in the open world; I'll happily look for it there on my own time. I don't go into dungeons to go secret-hunting or wandering around going out of my way to admire the scenery. 'Linear' is not a hard negative term when it comes to instanced content. Not to me, at least.