Archimonde vs Denathrius

[darkoms]

I'm assuming the ritual you're referring to is the one in Prophet's Lesson? If so, from the description it seems to be less due to inherent magic of the world or the warlock themselves, and more due to the runes and symbols themselves (i.e.: something like words of power that themselves have magic). Although, I don't think it's ever really been explained, though I think the idea of some symbols having inherent power (and if you used them carelessly, that power could backfire) would add some texture to the setting.


- Link

Regarding the ability to destroy worlds, there are many individuals who can do so. You have the Titans (as a given), the Void Lords (Pandemonius destroyed the Ethereal Homeworld), cosmic elementals (as demonstrated by Murmur), high ranking demons (Archimonde, and presumably Kil'jaeden), and the Aspects (Deathwing and Malygos both had the power to create these conditions because of their Aspect). It's also likely that any cosmic counterparts to forces that can manage these feats, such as the "Light Lords" or any possible "Chaos Lords", would be able to do so as well. Then, as you say, we have a large number of rituals that can have the same effect, including lesser known ones like the Darkstorm made by Xaraax (who, as an aside, was a Dreadlord who was planning on destroying Azeroth, which I guess was just another one of Zovaal's 5th dimensional chess moves), and we know that demonic portals frequently have an unfortunate side-effect of imploding (as seen by Illidan's destroying of Nathreza), which would probably imply that Legion generals like Portal Keeper Hasabel could also pull off something similar. Finally, you have the fact that many magical implements and facilities are known to have the same effect, such as the Forge of Souls, that was capable of killing Azeroth and is what Zovaal relied on, and the Forge of Origination, which could re-originate the planet (and I think reasonably it could be extrapolated that redirecting this power could likely also kill Azeroth).

The Chronicle mentions that Archimonde turned magic under Dalaran against the city itself, and due to the similarity of the rituals, it seems to me that this eredar (if not Archimonde) did the same


Pandemonius did this by opening a bunch of portals (as did Ner'zhul) and not by sheer strength, I completely forgot about the Mumbler, although he is some kind of unique creature, as you already noted Deathwing could only do this because of his unique strength Aspect (i.e. connection with the Elements, perhaps the second most destructive force after Filth) and even so he could only do this in the Maelstrom and after Nzot significantly strengthened it, I don’t think that Malygos could destroy the world, even if he claimed power Nexus, but the Chronicle says that his campaign to siphon magic from the planet caused natural disasters all over the planet and could even damage the world-soul of Azeroth.

Like I said, destruction is a Fel token (and to a lesser extent arcanes). It always seemed to me that the magic of Life and Death has more influence on mortal beings and their bodies, while Fel and Arcane have more influence on the objects of the material world. For example, Thrall survived an arcane blast from Jaina.




Where does it say that the Forge of Souls can kill Azeroth? Isn't the Forge of Origination powered by the power of Azeroth itself to re-originate the planet? We used this power to kill N'zoth.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Where does it say that the Forge of Souls can kill Azeroth? Isn't the Forge of Origination powered by the power of Azeroth itself to re-originate the planet? We used this power to kill N'zoth.

The Forge of Souls is what is being used to extract Azerite from Azeroth (i.e.: it's siphoning Azeroth's blood en masse and channeling it into the Sepulcher). It was essentially draining her of life and leaving her vulnerable to Zovaal's attacks, and I think it's a fair assessment to say that if the Forge of Souls was not stopped, Azeroth's wound would hemorrhage until she died (as it would never heal and would drain her until nothing was left).

Regarding the Forge of Origination, I don't think the exact source of the power has ever been explicitly stated. So far as I'm aware, its purpose is to wipe life from the face of Azeroth, which the Keepers within regulated. However, the forge is also able to be reconfigured to affect specific places, such as what happened to Lei Shen and his armies. I think it would be reasonable to say that hijacking of the forge, in a way similar to what Deathwing had planned in Cataclysm, could kill Azeroth if the power was directed into the world instead of across the surface. Going back to its power source, it's possible that the source of power is Azeroth and this could be an instance similar to the ritual you noted in Chronicle (i.e.: the power of Azeroth being used against her).

[darkoms]

The Forge of Souls is what is being used to extract Azerite from Azeroth (i.e.: it's siphoning Azeroth's blood en masse and channeling it into the Sepulcher). It was essentially draining her of life and leaving her vulnerable to Zovaal's attacks, and I think it's a fair assessment to say that if the Forge of Souls was not stopped, Azeroth's wound would hemorrhage until she died (as it would never heal and would drain her until nothing was left).

Regarding the Forge of Origination, I don't think the exact source of the power has ever been explicitly stated. So far as I'm aware, its purpose is to wipe life from the face of Azeroth, which the Keepers within regulated. However, the forge is also able to be reconfigured to affect specific places, such as what happened to Lei Shen and his armies. I think it would be reasonable to say that hijacking of the forge, in a way similar to what Deathwing had planned in Cataclysm, could kill Azeroth if the power was directed into the world instead of across the surface. Going back to its power source, it's possible that the source of power is Azeroth and this could be an instance similar to the ritual you noted in Chronicle (i.e.: the power of Azeroth being used against her).

Wasn't the Forge of Souls used to transport Azeroth itself to the Sepulcher?



The Forge of Wills uses the power of Azeroth to create new Titan-forged, so I thought the Forge of Origination would also use that power.

[Gigantique]

From a lore point of view, Illidan, Velen, and Khadgar actually helped kill him directly, as seen in the final cinematic.

Does it show that tho, AFAIK it starts with KJ falling to his knees in defeat, not Illi/Khad/Velen helping fighting him. Ofc it's one hellufa coincidence that the reinforcements were defeated/fled just as we defeated KJ so that the NPCs could interact with him/do the keystone thingy but that's just fantasy timings. I can't remember the cinematic showing the fighting KJ though.

[Aresk]

We wouldn't have beaten him if he was at Titan level.

Eonar only survived in hiding due to our intervention, and we bested the Legion forces that would have destroyed her. I assume that had our motivation been to destroy her, we could have done that as well.

Can Denny suck the pride from Archie and feed himself on the power it gives and make himself stronger? Denny was a little vampiric and I’m sure would be able to keep Archie busy with his sword and port behind Archie and start sucking his anima/pride away. They would make an interesting fight. Blizzard need to build a fight simulator which would let you put bosses against each other and let you watch

That would be amusing. I can already see issues with fights like G'huun or Yogg where mechanics are required to make the boss vulnerable in the first place.

[darkoms]

Eonar only survived in hiding due to our intervention, and we bested the Legion forces that would have destroyed her. I assume that had our motivation been to destroy her, we could have done that as well.



That would be amusing. I can already see issues with fights like G'huun or Yogg where mechanics are required to make the boss vulnerable in the first place.

It was just her soul, lol. Sargeras killed her before

[Gigantique]

Yeah what darkoms said, Eonar was in the fragile soul-state the rest of the Pantheon (bar Aggramar) was in, she just managed to avoid being captured post-murder to be tortured by the Shivarras.

[Aresk]

It was just her soul, lol. Sargeras killed her before

She was still a titan, and we could've presumably destroyed her there. We've also successfully destroyed two titan avatars and a nascent titan. Illidan, likewise, is a significant enough threat to help keep Sargeras contained, and we were powerful enough to defeat him. I'm not convinced that titans are beyond our means of dealing with, particularly given the number of McGuffins that exist in Warcraft lore.

[darkoms]

She was still a titan, and we could've presumably destroyed her there. We've also successfully destroyed two titan avatars and a nascent titan. Illidan, likewise, is a significant enough threat to help keep Sargeras contained, and we were powerful enough to defeat him. I'm not convinced that titans are beyond our means of dealing with, particularly given the number of McGuffins that exist in Warcraft lore.

Do you realize that a Titan's avatar is only a tiny fraction of a Titan's power? Just because we could kill Eonar at her weakest doesn't mean we can defeat her at her strongest, even Ion said the real Agramar could just crush us like ants. Illidan cannot contain Sargeras, the Pantheon imprisoned him with his power, the power of Argus, and possibly the power of the Throne of the Pantheon. Illidan just stayed there as the Jailer

[Aresk]

Do you realize that a Titan's avatar is only a tiny fraction of a Titan's power? Just because we could kill Eonar at her weakest doesn't mean we can defeat her at her strongest, even Ion said the real Agramar could just crush us like ants. Illidan cannot contain Sargeras, the Pantheon imprisoned him with his power, the power of Argus, and possibly the power of the Throne of the Pantheon. Illidan just stayed there as the Jailer

And Broxigar was able to wound Sargeras, the titan that was powerful enough to best all the others. And through that wound, Sargeras was defeated. Krasus and some other casters used that to distract the titan, and Malfurion and Illidan sealed the portal. Mortal-level characters have beaten titans. It may even, with enough setup, be possible to kill a living titan (not just their soul). While titans should always be a big deal, I would never assume that, with the narrative we've had in the past, anything is beyond mortals' ability to deal with.

[darkoms]

And Broxigar was able to wound Sargeras, the titan that was powerful enough to best all the others. And through that wound, Sargeras was defeated. Krasus and some other casters used that to distract the titan, and Malfurion and Illidan sealed the portal. Mortal-level characters have beaten titans. It may even, with enough setup, be possible to kill a living titan (not just their soul). While titans should always be a big deal, I would never assume that, with the narrative we've had in the past, anything is beyond mortals' ability to deal with.

There so many mistakes...

[choom]

And Broxigar was able to wound Sargeras, the titan that was powerful enough to best all the others. And through that wound, Sargeras was defeated. Krasus and some other casters used that to distract the titan, and Malfurion and Illidan sealed the portal. Mortal-level characters have beaten titans. It may even, with enough setup, be possible to kill a living titan (not just their soul). While titans should always be a big deal, I would never assume that, with the narrative we've had in the past, anything is beyond mortals' ability to deal with.

Avatar of Sargeras probably.

[Aresk]

Avatar of Sargeras probably.

It was allegedly Sargeras himself in the War of the Ancients trilogy. Broxigar's remains were recovered on Argus after he jumped through the portal, where the Krokul built a monument to him.

[loras]

Who would win in a fight between these two beings who seem comparable in power.

Both in their prime and on neutral ground without outside interference.

Archimonde was/is quite the beast, and certainly a threat to the Shadowlands and its denizens, but Denathrius in his realm? I doubt Archimonde alone would win that.
But the weakened Denathrius essentially locked in his castle? Yeah, that is something Archimonde would win.

[darkoms]

And Broxigar was able to wound Sargeras, the titan that was powerful enough to best all the others. And through that wound, Sargeras was defeated. Krasus and some other casters used that to distract the titan, and Malfurion and Illidan sealed the portal. Mortal-level characters have beaten titans. It may even, with enough setup, be possible to kill a living titan (not just their soul). While titans should always be a big deal, I would never assume that, with the narrative we've had in the past, anything is beyond mortals' ability to deal with.

Broxigar barely scratched Sargeras with his super-axe (the second most powerful weapon in the history of Azeroth) and Sargeras was defeated because this scratch was shot from the Dragon Soul (the most powerful weapon in the history of Azeroth) and even so the author specifically emphasized that Sargeras did not feel pain from that shot, but was instinctively distracted by this minor lash and it broke his concentration and maintenance of the portal, which is why Malfurion was able to close it.

[Grax]

Back in my day, when we had questions like this, we got out the rulebooks, homebrewed where we needed to, statted them out, and started rolling dice.

[darkoms]

Back in my day, when we had questions like this, we got out the rulebooks, homebrewed where we needed to, statted them out, and started rolling dice.

Did you make the Phoenix Lords equal to the primarchs on TT? Because they are in lore

[Aresk]

Broxigar barely scratched Sargeras with his super-axe (the second most powerful weapon in the history of Azeroth) and Sargeras was defeated because this scratch was shot from the Dragon Soul (the most powerful weapon in the history of Azeroth) and even so the author specifically emphasized that Sargeras did not feel pain from that shot, but was instinctively distracted by this minor lash and it broke his concentration and maintenance of the portal, which is why Malfurion was able to close it.

And using these weapons, mortal-level characters beat a titan. They didn't kill him, but I was talking about defeating them. And this was the most powerful titan known. If someone like Aman'thul went crazy and needed to be dealt with, I wouldn't be surprised if the narrative had us dealing with him. It should rightfully be a big deal, but I wouldn't put anything off limits in WoW (except maybe consistent writing).

[darkoms]

And using these weapons, mortal-level characters beat a titan. They didn't kill him, but I was talking about defeating them. And this was the most powerful titan known. If someone like Aman'thul went crazy and needed to be dealt with, I wouldn't be surprised if the narrative had us dealing with him. It should rightfully be a big deal, but I wouldn't put anything off limits in WoW (except maybe consistent writing).

What are you talking about? Mortals will never defeat a Titan with full power

[Si1ence]

Denathrius absolutely