Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
9
LastLast
  1. #141
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Lookout
    Posts
    20,975
    It's been happening since WoW came out. Why are people suddenly so against it these days?

    GDKP runs were massive throughout TBC/Wrath and they were literally just Boosting in large groups.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    The sense of acomplishment is gone.

    Dam losers.
    It's a Videogame, chances are if your main accomplishment in Life is pixels in a Game, it's not other people that are the Losers.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    It's been happening since WoW came out. Why are people suddenly so against it these days?

    GDKP runs were massive throughout TBC/Wrath and they were literally just Boosting in large groups.
    More visible nowadays.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I've never boosted. I'm fine with the achievements that I can manage to get. Is my game undermined? No, it isn't. Do I care if some stranger's game is undermined? No, I don't. It's their game. If they feel great about it then fine. If it fucks up their game, well....that's on them.

    Nevertheless I'd like to see boosting advertising in chat and on the LFG interface stopped. If it's out of sight, I could not care less.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I posted earlier in the thread the idea that player-to-player transactions over a certain amount, say 10,000 gold, could be subject to a 72-hour delay and cancellable by either side. That would be simple enough to code in fact. It wouldn't stop boosting but it might throw a monkey wrench into the gears. I can think of a relatively simple workaround for that (worthless auction house item for 150K gold) but it would add more complication to a process that would have already gotten complicated to manage on a large scale. And even this could be flagged easily enough by Blizzard. It's not an outright ban. I don't know that Blizzard actually wants to drive it from the game. Again with them: There are words and there are actions and the two don't match up. It's the Blizzard way.
    Umm... yes, it is. It cheapens your achievement. Makes it meaningless. Anyone can pay to have that done. The game becomes a paying to achieve game, rather than an actual achievement. That reward you got? Pointless. Everyone got it now. You can't feel special that you achieved something you can proudly display with your own merit as it's given as shop mounts for money.

    As for advertisement, we agree.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Umm... yes, it is. It cheapens your achievement. Makes it meaningless. Anyone can pay to have that done. The game becomes a paying to achieve game, rather than an actual achievement. That reward you got? Pointless. Everyone got it now. You can't feel special that you achieved something you can proudly display with your own merit as it's given as shop mounts for money.

    As for advertisement, we agree.
    I mean if you did it the hard way you fucking earned it versus letting "Let me solo her" do it...does the existance of that guy cheapen Elden Ring? Are the world first guys achievement cheapened cause they sold a mythic run to xxelonmuskxx. How about in a single player game you love but man some dude used a trainer and just flew through the game is it suddenly cheapened then?

  5. #145
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tralfamadore
    Posts
    32,097
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    It would also needlessly hurt regular players. Fixing an "issue" by hurting your normal players is NEVER a good answer.
    Set the transaction limit at 20,000 gold then or higher. Please tell me how many "normal" players are exchanging 20,000 gold in one transaction. I actually expected someone to say this and it's a non-starter. Most people are not transferring that much gold from one account to the next. Yes, Blizzard could easily allow this between main and alts with no issue.

    Anyway, there's nothing normal about this level of gold changing hands except for boosts.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-05-12 at 03:05 AM.
    Most people judge because thinking is hard.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Set the transaction limit at 20,000 gold then or higher. Please tell me how many "normal" players are exchanging 20,000 gold in one transaction. I actually expected someone to say this and it's a non-starter. Most people are transferring that much gold from one account to the next. Yes, Blizzard could easily allow this between main and alts with no issue.

    Anyway, there's nothing normal about this level of gold changing hands except for boosts.
    All the time? I still do face to face sales in trade for high ticket items. And my wife gives me gold when I need to buy things lol.

    I've sold things for 100k-500k probably 40-50 times this expansion face to face.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    All the time? I still do face to face sales in trade for high ticket items. And my wife gives me gold when I need to buy things lol.

    I've sold things for 100k-500k probably 40-50 times this expansion face to face.
    She did say normal but this is a great example on how "simple solutions" end up hurting innocent players

  8. #148
    What's the point of posting a screenshot of a quote?
    Just type the darn thing out...

    What exactly will this change?
    Real money boosts were always bannable, but people still do them successfully... so i don't see what this "leak" will change.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You can get double 291 legos, 246-259 tier, 252 conduits, and 246-259 gear in almost every slot (will truly be every slow in 9.2.5). The gap between a pure soloer and a mythic raider has never been smaller.
    There should simply be no gap at all. If you invest the effort, you should be able to gear as high item levels as organized group players as a casual gamer if you craft for months. Also there is no real gearing progression, but simply welfare epics for casual gamers behind artificial time gates. A progression system would be if you startet at a low level, and had to work your way up to a higher level. As like mythic+ 1-15,. there could be a crafting system where you level recipes, world content with different difficulty levels and instanced content like torghast which starts at torghast level 1 and ends at torghast level 15. Instead of that, something like Torghast does not exist in Dragonflight anymore.

    Yielding welfare epics for nothing is as dull as having no gearing progression at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So all your talk of "blizz not making a progression path for casuals because they want people to buy tokens for boosts" is, like Relapses said, a conspiracy theory not grounded in reality.
    No, it is no conspiracy theory, but simply the current state of the game. Raiders have multiple raid levels (normal, heroic, mythic), mythic+ players have different dungeon levels (1-n), but casual gamers have one set of dull world quests that yield welfare epics you do not really need for anything, only, if you used them as catchup for raids and mythic+, simply because blizzard designed the game not to have multiple progression pathes in pve.

    So where do you see a progression in that system if you assume typical casual gamers play no mythic+ dungeons or premade group raids? And how is that a conspiracy to say casual gamers have no real gearing progression? They have a set of welfare epics you get for attending, but no real progression ladder.

    The big mistake in blizzards design is that they see all gameplay outside of premade group raids and mythic+ as catchup mechanisms and pre stages for raiding and mythic+, while many players simply never will play instances. Many players never play mythic+. Many players never play raids. Many simply quit if they cannot progress in their gameplay anymore. The linear progression system which ends in gameplay only a few want to play is a general failure in blizzards MMORPG design, and literally based on the idea everyone would want to play either raids or mythic+. Numbers show a different outcome.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-05-12 at 05:41 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    It's been happening since WoW came out. Why are people suddenly so against it these days?

    GDKP runs were massive throughout TBC/Wrath and they were literally just Boosting in large groups.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's a Videogame, chances are if your main accomplishment in Life is pixels in a Game, it's not other people that are the Losers.
    ... Good way to twist my words.

    Arent we talking about a video game? So... I mean acomplishment in a video game. We are not talking about real life.

    Stop pretending you are an inteligent person. Thanks.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    The big mistake in blizzards design is that they see all gameplay outside of premade group raids and mythic+ as catchup mechanisms and pre stages for raiding and mythic+, while many players simply never will play instances.
    Blizzard's design philosophy has always been like that.

    When faced with "players aren't doing X" their answer is usually NOT "okay, let's give them alternative Y to do instead". Instead, it's "okay, what can we change about X so they WILL do X".

    That's why they keep adding incentives to PvP so PvE players will join (and vice versa) or tie quest lines into raid content so people who don't like raiding are forced to do it. Etc.

    It's a very efficient design goal - rather than making lots of parallel activities you just streamline things so everyone does the SAME activities. But it's also destructive in the long term, because there's fundamental reasons people don't like certain types of content, and if all you're doing is prodding them to do something they don't like because there's a reward in there, you're slowly building to a critical mass of resentment and dissatisfaction.

  12. #152
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tralfamadore
    Posts
    32,097
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    All the time? I still do face to face sales in trade for high ticket items. And my wife gives me gold when I need to buy things lol.

    I've sold things for 100k-500k probably 40-50 times this expansion face to face.
    You still could. I did say that the transaction would hold for something like 72 hours before going through. That's not outrageous and easy enough for individuals to manage. So your wife could still support you. A guild doing a booming business in boosts would find it more difficult if they're doing a lot of runs for people.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-05-12 at 05:58 AM.
    Most people judge because thinking is hard.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Therougetitan View Post
    Hard to believe you can be gladiator with that atrocious spelling and treating every sentence like a paragraph.
    At least I can write something in not my native language. And you understood right?

    Se fosses cagar à mata fazias melhor figura. Vai lá comprar um token para comprares o teu unicórnio cor de rosa.

    Palhaço.

  14. #154
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    35,764
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    There we go with the same BS "since vanilla".

    Just because maybe there was some boosting. It was the rarest thing in vanilla.
    I had 360 days played till midle of wotlk, was allways in the top guild in the server since vanilla.

    The boosting started mostly in zul'aman timed runs for the bear.

    If was so common as you guys prefer to paint that picture, maybe was just in some servers.

    My experience with the game includes vanilla naxx and every other raid title/achievments/multi gladiator, all till wotlk naxx with immortal till I stoped playing the game.

    Never saw that BS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    ... on a side note.

    The shame and disgrace of the minds of today gamers, that want stuff they cant do themselfs or got no skill for it.

    The sense of acomplishment is gone.

    Dam losers.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    This is a bold faced lie and I'm really disappointed in you spreading misinformation.

    Boosting was never part of the community since vanilla. It was always a black market, underground illegality. Nowadays it's promoted by Blizzard themselves because it directly influences token purchases.
    Boosting was an active thing since vanilla, was not rare, nor overpriced as shit. It was a common thing of trade/need on the servers I played on. It wasn't a common folk market like now, as the ones who made it a business, were commonly 3rd party assholes, but you saw at least 10-15 boosting advertisement posts from players a day (and about 30-50 from 3rd party), with various prices (Price range went from gold, item claims, and in some cases among raiding guilds, position trade (If you help with our lower members, then we bring you into our 40man for a run).
    Last edited by Gehco; 2022-05-12 at 06:48 AM.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    There should simply be no gap at all. If you invest the effort, you should be able to gear as high item levels as organized group players as a casual gamer if you craft for months. Also there is no real gearing progression, but simply welfare epics for casual gamers behind artificial time gates. A progression system would be if you startet at a low level, and had to work your way up to a higher level. As like mythic+ 1-15,. there could be a crafting system where you level recipes, world content with different difficulty levels and instanced content like torghast which starts at torghast level 1 and ends at torghast level 15. Instead of that, something like Torghast does not exist in Dragonflight anymore.

    Yielding welfare epics for nothing is as dull as having no gearing progression at all.



    No, it is no conspiracy theory, but simply the current state of the game. Raiders have multiple raid levels (normal, heroic, mythic), mythic+ players have different dungeon levels (1-n), but casual gamers have one set of dull world quests that yield welfare epics you do not really need for anything, only, if you used them as catchup for raids and mythic+, simply because blizzard designed the game not to have multiple progression pathes in pve.

    So where do you see a progression in that system if you assume typical casual gamers play no mythic+ dungeons or premade group raids? And how is that a conspiracy to say casual gamers have no real gearing progression? They have a set of welfare epics you get for attending, but no real progression ladder.

    The big mistake in blizzards design is that they see all gameplay outside of premade group raids and mythic+ as catchup mechanisms and pre stages for raiding and mythic+, while many players simply never will play instances. Many players never play mythic+. Many players never play raids. Many simply quit if they cannot progress in their gameplay anymore. The linear progression system which ends in gameplay only a few want to play is a general failure in blizzards MMORPG design, and literally based on the idea everyone would want to play either raids or mythic+. Numbers show a different outcome.
    There's the Pocopoc research ranks so the gear you get from the outdoors is 252 not 233 where it starts. There's farming the sandworm relics for 246 gear that CAN be turned into tier. Also you seemed to have completely ignored everything I said in the first part. Your double legos, your 252 conduits. All are things you grind and earn from solo content. Both soloers and raiders have a linear progression system. Raiders just have a longer one.

    As for your entire last paragraph, that's just your opinion. WoW is a multi person game and the absolute best gear SHOULD come from content that you need to work with other people to get. As I said, the gap is smaller than it's ever been and never has been so much of the raider's loot table been available to soloers. Sorry you feel it should be all of it.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Blizzard's design philosophy has always been like that.
    That is no reason not to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    When faced with "players aren't doing X" their answer is usually NOT "okay, let's give them alternative Y to do instead". Instead, it's "okay, what can we change about X so they WILL do X".
    The players i talk about simply never will play premade group instances. No matter if raids or dungeons. Blizzard never managed and will never manage to lure them into their understanding of fun gameplay. Rather than that blizzard should start catering to their players and not expect them to play the gameplay they want to force them into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's why they keep adding incentives to PvP so PvE players will join (and vice versa) or tie quest lines into raid content so people who don't like raiding are forced to do it. Etc.
    People rather quit than doing something they are forced to do. See millions of players leaving a few months after expac release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It's a very efficient design goal - rather than making lots of parallel activities you just streamline things so everyone does the SAME activities. But it's also destructive in the long term, because there's fundamental reasons people don't like certain types of content, and if all you're doing is prodding them to do something they don't like because there's a reward in there, you're slowly building to a critical mass of resentment and dissatisfaction.
    No, it is not efficient, as the development of player numbers shows. And yes, people dislike gameplay even more if they are literally forced to play it. The typical casual gamer simply pushes the Unsubscribe button if they run against a brick wall or gameplay they do not want to play.

    Blizzard needs to cater to their players. And not try to get them into gameplay they do not want.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    There's the Pocopoc research ranks so the gear you get from the outdoors is 252 not 233 where it starts. There's farming the sandworm relics for 246 gear that CAN be turned into tier. Also you seemed to have completely ignored everything I said in the first part. Your double legos, your 252 conduits. All are things you grind and earn from solo content. Both soloers and raiders have a linear progression system. Raiders just have a longer one.
    I did not ignore anything. You seem to ignore i talk about gearing progression rather than welfare epics. You do not even seem to know the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    As for your entire last paragraph, that's just your opinion. WoW is a multi person game and the absolute best gear SHOULD come from content that you need to work with other people to get.
    No, it should not. It should offer progression pathes for all the different kind of players that play the game. And no, organized group players are nowhere even close to be a majority of the players.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    As I said, the gap is smaller than it's ever been and never has been so much of the raider's loot table been available to soloers. Sorry you feel it should be all of it.
    And as i said, there should be no gap. Probably stat and perk diversity as like between pvp and pve, different set bonuses based on your playstyle, but an item level gap based on nothing but elitism and gate keeping is simply stupid, and turns casual gamers into whales, and makes them leave once they have no gameplay left.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-05-12 at 07:13 AM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    That is no reason not to change it.
    I agree. And I'm only explaining it, I'm in no way advocating for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    The players i talk about simply never will play premade group instances. No matter if raids or dungeons. Blizzard never managed and will never manage to lure them into their understanding of fun gameplay. Rather than that blizzard should start catering to their players and not expect them to play the gameplay they want to force them into.
    That's what I mean by "fundamental reasons not to like certain types of content".

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    People rather quit than doing something they are forced to do. See millions of players leaving a few months after expac release.
    That's why I said it's ultimately destructive.

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    No, it is not efficient, as the development of player numbers shows.
    I'm not sure you understand what "efficient" means. It certainly doesn't mean "attracts the maximum number of players". That's not Blizzard's goal anyway. Their goal is to turn maximum PROFIT. And that involves not only the number of players, but also the amount of investment. Efficient design allows them to reap maximum rewards with minimum investment; that's why they'd rather have everyone play the same content than design lots of different content each of which only specific people play. This doesn't work forever, of course; you're very right to point out that it's in the process of collapsing. But the short to medium term is more important to investors than the long term. In the long term, EVERY game stops making money. It's all about how much money you squeeze out of it until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Blizzard needs to cater to their players. And not try to get them into gameplay they do not want.
    They seem to disagree, at least to an extent. They're banking on players being invested in the franchise, and their market presence carrying them through design dissatisfaction. It's worked well for a long time. Whether or not it'll continue to work to the degree they find acceptable, and for how long, that's up for debate. Certainly they seem to realize that something is wrong - but a lot of what we in the community identify simply as "bad decisions" is no doubt something they KNEW was going to be poorly received, but they did it anyway because it was more profitable than the alternative. That kind of attitude may well come back to bite them in the near future. But it has worked well in the past, no question. They made a LOT of money with this kind of design.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    You still could. I did say that the transaction would hold for something like 72 hours before going through. That's not outrageous and easy enough for individuals to manage. So your wife could still support you. A guild doing a booming business in boosts would find it more difficult if they're doing a lot of runs for people.
    make it even worse by allowing only one pending transaction at any time

  19. #159
    Sure thing, right after the expansion with tinkers and housing.

  20. #160
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tralfamadore
    Posts
    32,097
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    They seem to disagree, at least to an extent. They're banking on players being invested in the franchise, and their market presence carrying them through design dissatisfaction. It's worked well for a long time. Whether or not it'll continue to work to the degree they find acceptable, and for how long, that's up for debate. Certainly they seem to realize that something is wrong - but a lot of what we in the community identify simply as "bad decisions" is no doubt something they KNEW was going to be poorly received, but they did it anyway because it was more profitable than the alternative. That kind of attitude may well come back to bite them in the near future. But it has worked well in the past, no question. They made a LOT of money with this kind of design.
    For what it's worth—and I truly have no clue how far they want to take it—Ion has now said multiple times about DragonFlight that players will be able to progress playing the content they want to play. They've never said that specifically that I'm aware of so I'm cautiously optimistic. Even if they do that there remains a question as to whether the big-brained engineer team leaders, some of whom were associated with EJ, will even understand what explorer/collector players will find engaging.
    Most people judge because thinking is hard.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •