It is Time to Ban WoW Addons

[A Chozo]

It doesn't take a doctorate in psychology to come to the conclusion that you're clearly lying here lol.

yes, nice argument. "You are lying!".

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But why do you think all WF mythic raiders using combat addons and codes?

To get an edge over the competition, they don't simplify stuff as much as you think.

Remove them, you change almost nothing and make a bunch of people who uses addons angry.

Good job!

[Royru]

yes, nice argument. "You are lying!".

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To get an edge over the competition, they don't simplify stuff as much as you think.

Remove them, you change almost nothing and make a bunch of people who uses addons angry.

Good job!

I’m not arguing I’m pointing out the obvious

[Pendraeg]

In sum, Blizzard, it is time to improve wow default settings and ban ALL addons.

Banning Addons isn't a bad idea, but it's going to take a LOT of fixes on the back-end to make it viable. I'm not even talking about Damage Meters, or DBM or WA or anything like that.
I'm talking about base UI stuff. Setting bars, map, bags (oh hell, those default bags...), do we even want to approach the AH mods? I know that DF is suppose to fix SOME of it, but there's a LOT to be fixed from the original baseline game.

[Echo of Soul]

There's a blip in the community about add-ons at the moment because FFXIV took a hardline stance against them and players love to pit WoW against this game. (ie, anything FFXIV does that WoW doesn't do is because FFXIV's developers have a better line of communication with its playerbase.) I doubt we'd be talking about it if FFXIV hadn't recently made a move in this direction.

Are you high?? Streamers and content creators have been on an addon hate bandwagon for at least 6 months.

They just do it to fuck over us raiders because if they get what they want mythic will be impossible

[Relapses]

You are keeping repeating the same thing that addons don't carry mythic players around, while nobody says addons alone do so.

But why do you think all WF mythic raiders using combat addons and codes? to make things more complicated and harder? ofc not, they make things simpler and easier.

There is no point to deny this because that's just illogical and stupid.

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What you just said directly contradicts what Ion said.

Ion: Design change because of addon issue.

You: Addon exist because of encounter design.

LOL. You mistake causes and consequences. It is just ridiculous.

I don't give a shit what Ion says or thinks. I'm not sourcing my opinion on this subject matter because Ion has spoken about it. I'm saying that the issue that WF raiders have with add-ons isn't because they want add-ons to be removed, it's because they want Blizzard to stop designing annoying ass encounters that require a fuck ton of unique WAs or add-ons to properly play.

[Kiria]

Definitely get rid of combat addons. I literally saw the dungeon journal for Sepulcher with huge amount of boss abilities and went "Nah, can't be arsed with remembering all that".

The more addons, the more complex Blizzard has to make the mechanics. It's as simple as that

I fought the Jailer once in LFR and that was with DBM, I am never stepping foot into that shitty fight ever again...

[Royru]

I don't give a shit what Ion says or thinks. I'm not sourcing my opinion on this subject matter because Ion has spoken about it. I'm saying that the issue that WF raiders have with add-ons isn't because they want add-ons to be removed, it's because they want Blizzard to stop designing annoying ass encounters that require a fuck ton of unique WAs or add-ons to properly play.

Wait let’s be super clear about what’s going on here. Ion is telling us that they change raid design specifically because of addons, this isn’t an opinion this is actively happening. So because of this the fights are becoming annoy. This isn’t an opinion. This is what’s happening. What are you even saying?

[Kalistez]

To be honest I get more enjoyment out of tinkering with my UI than
playing the actual game these days

[Relapses]

And what I'm telling you is that this is just a ridiculous thing to say. This is on par with "Oh inflation is going up? Let's just stop printing money fellas"

This is wrong because it assumes that encounter difficulty and add-ons existing are in a constant deadlock of trying to one-up each other. My entire argument is that this isn't the case.

The fact of the matter is when they are designing fights around addons, the fights will in turn be almost impossible without them if not absolutely terribly difficult. Imagine Halondrus without addons, that's the point.

I used Halondrus as an example of a fight that you probably could do pretty easily without add-ons. Most of the boss' abilities are well telegraphed and the single Mythic mechanic isn't super complicated, it just requires you not to fuck it up. WAs for when to drop the bomb help but they're hardly required. Mythic Jailer, on the other hand, has about 12 different things happening at once which require WAs to be able to track to ensure you don't accidentally overlap two mechanics and make it impossible to progress. I'm saying more of the former, less of the latter.

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Wait let’s be super clear about what’s going on here. Ion is telling us that they change raid design specifically because of addons, this isn’t an opinion this is actively happening. So because of this the fights are becoming annoy. This isn’t an opinion. This is what’s happening. What are you even saying?

I'm saying that Ion's a fucking moron if he's continuing to try to out-design WAs and add-ons.

[Royru]

This is wrong because it assumes that encounter difficulty and add-ons existing are in a constant deadlock of trying to one-up each other. My entire argument is that this isn't the case.



I used Halondrus as an example of a fight that you probably could do pretty easily without add-ons. Most of the boss' abilities are well telegraphed and the single Mythic mechanic isn't super complicated, it just requires you not to fuck it up. WAs for when to drop the bomb help but they're hardly required. Mythic Jailer, on the other hand, has about 12 different things happening at once which require WAs to be able to track to ensure you don't accidentally overlap two mechanics and make it impossible to progress. I'm saying more of the former, less of the latter.

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I'm saying that Ion's a fucking moron if he's continuing to try to out-design WAs and add-ons.

The fact that you’re saying the wow devs and Ion are just wrong and that you know better about raid design honestly speaks for itself..

Nothing else needs to be said.

[Merpish]

Not a single addon in this game make the challenging bosses in wow trivial, if that was a thing than everyone would be able to get CE.

Most of the people screaming about banning addons are just bad at the game, and don't understand what addons are actually doing.

Nope FFXIV has no addons and it doesn't make raiding better and it definitely makes the UI worse

Also FFXIV players are so desperate to use addons they are willing to break ToS to get them.

[unbound]

So, to address the OP's areas:

- For hardcores: They will always find a way to push the envelope, whether it is by cheating or other methods. RWF is for the extremely few...and 95% of the playerbase (as small as it is anymore) could care less what they are doing and how they get there.

- For casuals: Ion is an idiot. Blizzard is making encounters harder and harder because they are too lazy to be creative. They have stopped trying to make mechanics interesting and spend far too much time trying to make mechanics complicated. Blizzard is creating this problem.

- For Blizzard: They have encouraged the development of add-ons from the very beginning of the game. There is a legitimate argument that part of the popularity of WoW was due to add-ons. Blizzard is starting to put in add-ons because the number of people willing to create add-ons is diminishing as the popularity of the game goes down...and a number of add-ons are legitimately valuable to player experience. Even Blizzard recognizes this...which is why they are finally putting in UI elements that *should have always been in the game*.

- For everyone: Plenty of people love addons. I like the screen to look the way I want it. I like the ability to play around. I don't have to do this every 20 days...every 2-3 years when I build a new computer...and it just isn't that hard.

- For addon developers: Let them play around. Why punish them for doing something that they like to do?

[Relapses]

The fact that you’re saying the wow devs and Ion are just wrong and that you know better about raid design honestly speaks for itself..

Nothing else needs to be said.

Gee, thanks for letting me know that my opinion is wrong.

[Aydinx2]

They should ban threads like "It is time to" or "can we all agree that".
Make your point normally.

[Royru]

Gee, thanks for letting me know that my opinion is wrong.

They rarely are!

[Relapses]

They rarely are!

Except when you're arguing against somebody who just pointed out a deliberate mischaracterization of WF raiders' opinions being in support of removing add-ons when, you know, they're really just saying that Blizzard is trying way too hard to out-design add-ons.

[Royru]

Except when you're arguing against somebody who just pointed out a deliberate mischaracterization of WF raiders' opinions being in support of removing add-ons when, you know, they're really just saying that Blizzard is trying way too hard to out-design add-ons.

I don’t really think you have anything else to offer in this conversation, thank you for your input though.

[Relapses]

I don’t really think you have anything else to offer in this conversation, thank you for your input though.

I apologize that recognizing that a Blizzard-created problem has more than one possible solution than what the OP suggested bothers you as much as it apparently does but I don't need you to tell me where and how I can comment or state my opinions.

[Biomega]

Blizzard is making encounters harder and harder because they are too lazy to be creative.

Actually, I'd hard disagree on this one.

One of THE biggest problems with addons in fights is that they're used to trivialize "creative" mechanics. Addons don't trivialize something like "kill this add in X seconds or wipe". They DO trivialize something like "who's the impostor, guess it quick!". Which of these would you say is more "creative" design?

Of course not all of it works like that, but the more you venture outside of the regular mechanics of a boss fight, the more likely you are to run into something that people want addons to solve because it outsources brain power that can then be used for the regular stuff, i.e. pumping damage into your target or not standing in the poopoo.

Finding the sweet spot between mechanics that are interesting and engaging but cannot simply be trivialized with addons is difficult, but not impossible. People bring up Halondrus a lot, and it's a good example of this kind of design: addons help there for sure, but they don't trivialize the fight. At all. Whereas on something like Lords of Dread, addons absolutely trivialize an entire fight mechanic. We need more fights in the vein of Halondrus (though perhaps not at that level of overall difficulty) and less fights like Lords of Dread.

Addons increase encounter complexity, but that is, on the whole, a GOOD thing. Without addons, encounters would very quickly devolve into being either incredibly difficult to do for the average player not fielding an outrageous amount of concentration and multitasking ability, or being trivially easy for anyone that has even a little bit of that. Addons level the playing field so more people can enjoy better fights. That is something that works to the benefit of a lot of people.

[Royru]

I apologize that recognizing that a Blizzard-created problem has more than one possible solution than what the OP suggested bothers you as much as it apparently does but I don't need you to tell me where and how I can comment or state my opinions.

I accept your apology