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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    And the in-universe explanation when it comes to regular basic rogues stealthing in the middle of the desert is what exactly ?
    The in-universe explanation is that they probably don't sneak around in deserts in bright daylight and without any cover or maybe they hide behind dunes. Again, just because you can do it within the confines of the game doesn't mean that it's automatically possible within the in-universe lore framework.
    Quote Originally Posted by Odinfrost View Post
    Also in Classic, there were Grimtotem Rogues, so, yeah... Non-magic Tauren rogues have been a thing since forever.
    Your move.
    I don't understand your point. I already said that they're absurd. Just because they exist in Classic doesn't mean they're above criticism.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  2. #142
    lore has changed to rogues using magic to stealth.
    why keep arguing?
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    it's still absurd.
    nah, you are just too narrow minded

    explain how can someone playing tauren/drenei already use invisibility via Shroud of Concealment of another rogue, but couldnt use it on their own? how is hiding WHOLE GROUP not an issue, but hiding one, however big, individual "absurd"? do they get smaller before using shroud?
    or you are just too stuck in what "used to be" to admit tauren/drenei rogues already exist in lore nad game for years, and its not absurd at all...

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The in-universe explanation is that they probably don't sneak around in deserts in bright daylight and without any cover or maybe they hide behind dunes. Again, just because you can do it within the confines of the game doesn't mean that it's automatically possible within the in-universe lore framework.
    And any proof of the fact that they can't do it in-universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I don't understand your point. I already said that they're absurd. Just because they exist in Classic doesn't mean they're above criticism.
    I forgot to ask you, but you also have Satyres, that are big, hoofed and use stealth. Are they absurd too ?

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Rangari are scouts that align more with the fantasy of a hunter and not that of a rogue.
    they are both assassins and rangers among rangari, and there are drenei assassins in lore... for example there was eredar assassin in "thousand years of war"...

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Julian Rayne View Post
    I've had both cows and goats sneak up on me IRL. And they weren't even trying. Or wearing Leather boots. I didn't even realize the goat was there until it tried to eat my shoelace.
    Post of the decade. Iove this.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    I forgot to ask you, but you also have Satyres, that are big, hoofed and use stealth. Are they absurd too ?
    i think we all know who is absurd here

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    I was under the belief they were unable to be turned undead as Worgen, unless something I've missed? As that is what lore states through the quests in-game, and thus, the Worgen Death Knights weren't started as undead but slowly consumed by it.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wor...2C_and_undeath "Worgen cannot become Forsaken,[41][44] but can become death knights.[45] The worgen curse makes raising them into undeath far more difficult than it is for normal humans. The worgen curse has roots in both the Emerald Dream (through the wolf Ancient, Goldrinn) and the holy power of the goddess Elune. In addition, those worgen who imbibe the waters of Tal'doren — during the Ritual of Balance[46] — have a further resistance to the corruption of undeath. Sylvanas' Val'kyr are less powerful than the Lich King and are unable to overcome this resistance and turn worgen into Forsaken, but the powers of the Lich King himself are sufficient enough to raise worgen as death knights.[45] Worgen death knights can shapeshift, such as Grant Lazarby. Forsaken can be cursed to appear as worgen, like Apothecary Berard."

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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    nah, you are just too narrow minded

    explain how can someone playing tauren/drenei already use invisibility via Shroud of Concealment of another rogue, but couldnt use it on their own? how is hiding WHOLE GROUP not an issue, but hiding one, however big, individual "absurd"? do they get smaller before using shroud?
    or you are just too stuck in what "used to be" to admit tauren/drenei rogues already exist in lore nad game for years, and its not absurd at all...
    Rogues don't start out with shroud of concealment. In fact they used to have no magical abilities at all back when the game first came out. This reasoning is retarded and completely backwards. You're giving me a powerful magical ability as the reason why Tauren could be stealthy when realistically, this sort of ability would only become part of a rogue's repertoire once they're already a master of their craft (which I would assume involves learning actual, non-magical sneaking). So it does not really make the idea any less absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    And any proof of the fact that they can't do it in-universe
    Well, they might be able to do it now but rogues started out as a non-magical class. In order to reach a level of subterfuge where they can magically turn invisible I'd expect the rogue to master regular sneaking first which - again - is pretty absurd in the case of a Tauren.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    I forgot to ask you, but you also have Satyres, that are big, hoofed and use stealth. Are they absurd too ?
    The comparison is stupid. For starters, Satyrs aren't a mortal race but inherently magical beings (doubly so since they are both elves and demons) and they're most certainly not as large and clumsy as Tauren.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  10. #150
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wor...2C_and_undeath "Worgen cannot become Forsaken,[41][44] but can become death knights.[45] The worgen curse makes raising them into undeath far more difficult than it is for normal humans. The worgen curse has roots in both the Emerald Dream (through the wolf Ancient, Goldrinn) and the holy power of the goddess Elune. In addition, those worgen who imbibe the waters of Tal'doren — during the Ritual of Balance[46] — have a further resistance to the corruption of undeath. Sylvanas' Val'kyr are less powerful than the Lich King and are unable to overcome this resistance and turn worgen into Forsaken, but the powers of the Lich King himself are sufficient enough to raise worgen as death knights.[45] Worgen death knights can shapeshift, such as Grant Lazarby. Forsaken can be cursed to appear as worgen, like Apothecary Berard."
    That partially connects to my belief, though opens up questions if they have risen instead. If it needs the Lich King, then we are a little in trouble on the Worgen recruitment faire, seeing as Bolvar holds no further empowerment of the Lich King's - unless we can believe that the most powerful Death Knights now can do it?
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Rogues don't start out with shroud of concealment. In fact they used to have no magical abilities at all back when the game first came out. This reasoning is retarded and completely backwards. You're giving me a powerful magical ability as the reason why Tauren could be stealthy when realistically, this sort of ability would only become part of a rogue's repertoire once they're already a master of their craft (which I would assume involves learning actual, non-magical sneaking). So it does not really make the idea any less absurd.
    That's the issue "I would assume" : You only present assumption as truth. You classify as "absurd" everything that doesn't fit your view of the world, when said view should change depending on the actual proof present in the game. We keep telling you that there is many instances of already existing character that uses magic to stealth but you keep assserting that rogue started out as a non-magical class and that all magical justification is "absurd" :

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Of course you can always whip out some contrived magical explanation to justify anything but that won't change the fact that at the end of the day it's still absurd.
    but why is it absurd ? Because it doesn't fit the universe or because it contradict what you would like the world to be ?

  12. #152
    High Overlord PsychoSe7eN's Avatar
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    Seriously, fuck wow at this point. I'm glad I don't play and now I have no interest in returning.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    It's definitionally racist to believe there isn't a single member of a species who could learn a certain skill.

    The idea of racial restrictions at all is beyond dumb, unless there is a very specific lore behind it where the skill has to be taught (aka, gatekept knowledge). There's a good reason tabletop games have moved away from it!
    It's not dumb at all, Tauren should be able to lift heavier things than a Gnome. Your point just leads to really bland and boring gameplay. Why not just make all of the equipable gear banana peels with only 1 class with all talents and abilities having the same effect and name... like throw banana peel? Diversity in talents, abilities, classes, and racial effects give you the ability to make impactful decisions... which is just a fun thing to do.
    Last edited by Aedruid; 2022-05-18 at 08:55 PM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    That's the issue "I would assume" : You only present assumption as truth. You classify as "absurd" everything that doesn't fit your view of the world, when said view should change depending on the actual proof present in the game. We keep telling you that there is many instances of already existing character that uses magic to stealth but you keep assserting that rogue started out as a non-magical class and that all magical justification is "absurd" :
    I classify it as absurd based on the facts presented by the game. Rogues were a non-magical class from the getgo. There simply is no mention of any magical capacity in the original game (and not in the RPG rulebooks which accompanied it either). They only received magical abilities later on (I think the first one came in TBC in the form of shadowstep) at a very high level. Due to these facts you would have to look for another non-magical interpretation, the most obvious of which (at least in my view) would be that they are first and foremost very good at sneaking, blending into environments and looking very inconspicuous in general. None of these things are really compatible with Tauren due to their clumsy, imposing form. That is common sense. Feel free to point out your disagreement with this.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  15. #155
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    looking very inconspicuous in general.
    Tauren rogues in Thunder Bluff would look inconspicuous. Looking inconspicuous is more determined by your surroundings than by your own form. An Orc trying to blend into a crowd in the middle of Stormwind would look conspicuous, but Orcs can be Rogues.

    For that matter, looking inconspicuous is a stupid argument to make when Rogue gear screams "I'm a dangerous shadowy assassin, don't pay any attention to me!!" Someone trying to look inconspicuous would be more likely to wear generic guard armor or civilian clothes.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I classify it as absurd based on the facts presented by the game. Rogues were a non-magical class from the getgo. There simply is no mention of any magical capacity in the original game (and not in the RPG rulebooks which accompanied it either). They only received magical abilities later on (I think the first one came in TBC in the form of shadowstep) at a very high level. Due to these facts you would have to look for another non-magical interpretation, the most obvious of which (at least in my view) would be that they are first and foremost very good at sneaking, blending into environments and looking very inconspicuous in general. None of these things are really compatible with Tauren due to their clumsy, imposing form. That is common sense. Feel free to point out your disagreement with this.
    My disagreement is easy to point out : there is now plenty as proof that rogues are using magic for their stealth, so thinking that tauren being able to be rogue is absurd is thinking that every rogue is absurdity at this point. So, do you think that tauren being able to be rogues is absurd or do you think that rogue using magic is absurd ? Do you think that rogue as whole are absurd ?

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Haven't you been paying attention? The current devs don't care about adhering to the lore. You'll take your stealthy cows and your light wielding Orcs and you'll like it! *pukes*
    Seems like YOU don't care about adhering to the lore....

    Source: Satyrs. Grimtotems.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    It's not dumb at all, Tauren should be able to lift heavier things than a Gnome. Your point just leads to really bland and boring gameplay. Why not just make all of the equipable gear banana peels with only 1 class with all talents and abilities having the same effect and name... like throw banana peel? Diversity in talents, abilities, classes, and racial effects give you the ability to make impactful decisions... which is just a fun thing to do.
    You get to make those with many other things in the game!

    Taurens being stronger than gnomes would mean that every warrior would just play a Tauren. Looking around at a town in Elder Scrolls, realize that every dps magic character is an altmer, and you'll see the issue. Play a bosmer caster and you might not even get invited to some groups

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Haven't you been paying attention? The current devs don't care about adhering to the lore. You'll take your stealthy cows and your light wielding Orcs and you'll like it! *pukes*
    Black talonguard member

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    My disagreement is easy to point out : there is now plenty as proof that rogues are using magic for their stealth, so thinking that tauren being able to be rogue is absurd is thinking that every rogue is absurdity at this point. So, do you think that tauren being able to be rogues is absurd or do you think that rogue using magic is absurd ? Do you think that rogue as whole are absurd ?
    Again, you're missing the point.
    If rogues start out at point (A) without magic (just sneaking and stabbing like they did in classic) and have to reach a certain point (B) before they get the ability to use magic to enhance their skills to begin with, then how are Tauren ever going to reach point (B) when their physique prevents them from reaching point (A) to begin with.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

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