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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "At the time, this idea existed as an intangible philosophy, but the potential was obvious."

    If you want to consider "intangible philosophy" to be the same as developing a specific program, sure.

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    Lots of companies give a shit about diversity in that diversity is good for business almost universally.

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    No, the word I want is "progress". Making things better is definitionally good.
    Are things better?

    How do you measure that? Now I'm willing to admit the last hail merry of doomed media is to scream diversity so I won't harp on that.

    The changes brought about by this fad are simply changes so far. They haven't improved things in a noticable way beyond perhaps restricting speech .

    We are the first generation in a very long time that believes it acceptable to end professional careers over swearing. Not the old swears like fuck,shit but the new ones.

    Change is change nothing positive nor negative alone.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Don't respond directly to me if you are trying to carry on a conversation with someone else.
    You literally quoted me on a conversation I was having? What are you actually talking about?

    I’m just suppose to assume if you jump in on a topic that you are going to take it completely out of context? LOL what world do you live you dude.

    Guy 1: yeah so I really think cars are faster than bikes for sure

    Guy 2: for sure cars are def faster

    Guy 3: cars aren’t the fastest, planes are why would you say that

    Guy 2: that isn’t what we were talking about…

    Guy 3: don’t respond to me then

    What schizophrenic world do you live in

  3. #323
    The Patient Chilela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    can you point to any modern game or development that actually uses that Mindset and try’s to break every one up into numbers or is this just the “game has woman/minority lead so is woke” nonesense?
    The Ardenweald thing in the very post you quoted. When I say "That mindset", I mean the "More diversity = more better" mindset, which the Diversity Space Tool is merely a potential logical conclusion of. Are there any companies that use this model, specifically? If Blizzard is to be believed in their assertion that it wasn't used, then likely no, given that it appears that it was developed cooperatively between King and MIT. And at this point, even if it did get picked up by a company in the future, they'd likely not admit to it, unless it was normalized to a certain degree.

    A woman/minority lead in a game does not automatically mean "woke". However, if a lead is chosen in some degree to subvert "Straight, white male as a norm" (which can be inferred to a degree by a creator's personal politics), then it's not irrational to have reasonable suspicion of political motivation. While not inherently a bad thing, some people will invariably turn their noses up at it, whether as a result of inherent disagreement with the politics in question, out of desire for the hobby to be a form of escapism from the woes of the real world, or some combination thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Are things better?

    How do you measure that? Now I'm willing to admit the last hail merry of doomed media is to scream diversity so I won't harp on that.
    It depends on your personal metrics of "better". If we're talking purely in terms of a company's bottom line, then you can point to diversity-pushing companies being the largest ones out there, and therefore are "more successful". Whether or not this is purely due to diversity, or at least in part a result of other factors, could be argued. Though if a company's big enough, they're most likely going to need at least somewhat of a diverse workforce just due to pure numbers of qualified employees. If you're talking quality of product, that's even more subjective, and one I'd take issue with, particularly within gaming.

    We are the first generation in a very long time that believes it acceptable to end professional careers over swearing. Not the old swears like fuck,shit but the new ones.
    Sharply disagree with this one. It's just more noticeable now due to social media's omnipresence.
    Last edited by Chilela; 2022-05-16 at 08:39 PM.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Are things better?

    How do you measure that? Now I'm willing to admit the last hail merry of doomed media is to scream diversity so I won't harp on that.

    The changes brought about by this fad are simply changes so far. They haven't improved things in a noticable way beyond perhaps restricting speech .

    We are the first generation in a very long time that believes it acceptable to end professional careers over swearing. Not the old swears like fuck,shit but the new ones.

    Change is change nothing positive nor negative alone.
    Fifty years ago, sexual harassment was the allowed norm in offices. Now it isn't. If you have trouble stating that that is a good thing, it certainly explains why this stuff upsets you so much (you have no moral center).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    You literally quoted me on a conversation I was having? What are you actually talking about?

    I’m just suppose to assume if you jump in on a topic that you are going to take it completely out of context? LOL what world do you live you dude.

    Guy 1: yeah so I really think cars are faster than bikes for sure

    Guy 2: for sure cars are def faster

    Guy 3: cars aren’t the fastest, planes are why would you say that

    Guy 2: that isn’t what we were talking about…

    Guy 3: don’t respond to me then

    What schizophrenic world do you live in
    I said that companies like diversity because it makes them money. You "corrected" me that companies like diversity because it makes them money.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And you are lecturing me on "distinction without a difference"?

    If I say "They care about X, because X is good for business" what the fuck do you think I mean besides "They care about X because it makes them money"?

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    Well for one thing, this has nothing to do with hiring anyone so you look like a weirdo rambling about that in this thread.
    Ah just assumed it was some tool to measure their companies employee diversity. But thanks for the reply sport have a good day.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I said that companies like diversity because it makes them money. You "corrected" me that companies like diversity because it makes them money.
    I corrected you by saying they don’t actually care about it on a fundamental level outside of profits because that was literally the conversation we were having that you butted into.

  7. #327
    This tool should be called the Shit-O-Matic 9000

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    I corrected you by saying they don’t actually care about it on a fundamental level outside of profits because that was literally the conversation we were having that you butted into.
    I didn't say they cared about it at a fundamental level. I said they care about it when its good for business. I'm sorry that you are so quick to condescend and correct people that you didn't bother to read what I said before condescending, but doubling down is weird.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by ResentfulUK View Post
    Every tool does, but does it counter more bias than it incorporates? That's to be seen. Not by any means sayings it's perfect, I imagine it needs a LOT more refinement.
    Well given those two examples I think its pretty obvious that it has more bias than it counters. I don't even want to get into the can of worms of how they have a Brazilian and Russian given points for culture while the Swedish dude doesn't get any.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Fifty years ago, sexual harassment was the allowed norm in offices. Now it isn't. If you have trouble stating that that is a good thing, it certainly explains why this stuff upsets you so much (you have no moral center).

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    I said that companies like diversity because it makes them money. You "corrected" me that companies like diversity because it makes them money.
    What offices?

    It feels like you are using office sitcoms to make your point now.

    Call me ignorant but grabbing a womans ass in the 70s screaming " give me dat ass" likely would get your ass kicked back then.

  11. #331
    This is some phrenology level garbage right here

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I didn't say they cared about it at a fundamental level. I said they care about it when its good for business. I'm sorry that you are so quick to condescend and correct people that you didn't bother to read what I said before condescending, but doubling down is weird.
    I absolutely love that you are so eager to fight with people, you are even fighting with people for agreeing with you, but not in EXACTLY the way you would like them to have agreed with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    What offices?

    It feels like you are using office sitcoms to make your point now.

    Call me ignorant but grabbing a womans ass in the 70s screaming " give me dat ass" likely would get your ass kicked back then.
    Do you truly believe that?

  14. #334
    Wow, yikes, this is some crazy stuff right here. Like, is this a Rick and Morty episode?

    Edit: I will add 1 thing that makes this kinda crazy. In the past, people could make good games they wanted to make. Now, they have to make games only that fit this tool? How is that opening up expression for anyone or expanding what is possible in gaming? Isn't this instead, limiting gaming to strictly characters that follow this flawed algorithms hierarchy? Won't this...clearly...make games more the same and not more different?

    The only thing this DOES do is protect the company from backlash from groups that feel under-represented. IMO, It PROTECTS THE COMPANY, first and foremost, at the cost of ubiquitous game development.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2022-05-16 at 08:58 PM.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Assbandit View Post
    Hate to break it to you but your echo-chamber doesn't count ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Also conservatives are a minority in the U.S. but don't let facts get in the way of your feelings mate.
    So are Democrats- and you can get used to that. Btw, i'm an independent. But funny how you think that because someone doesn't agree with your minority left wing world views...that they suddenly get labeled as "right winger" or "conservative". Get out of YOUR echo chamber of wokeness. The world doesn't want what you are trying to force on it.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Ok? Lol.

    I mean just because I think the tool is dumb and is hurtful in the long run doesn’t mean I think white people are being persecuted. This is that same mindset of people calling all woke folks white hating because some of them use it as a tool to actually hate white people.

    But this guy has taken it in a very weird very conspiratorial-esq type of direction that’s super silly lol.
    It's the inherent problem with this topic; you can't really speak on it from a place of ambiguity. You have to take a side. You're either not woke enough, woke or too woke. I just... I don't know, I'm kind of tired of the nonsense and while I personally don't like the tool or how Activision presented it, I think there's also a lot of people screaming woke-scold and claiming this is a deliberate, targeted attack on straight white males when it seriously isn't that big of a deal.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Call me ignorant but grabbing a womans ass in the 70s screaming " give me dat ass" likely would get your ass kicked back then.
    But that's an extreme example. Those are usually not the biggest problem - because while they are often the most harmful singular events, they're rare, and they're easily identified. What's much more troublesome is smaller things that happen ALL THE TIME to a huge number of people - and that definitely used to be a lot more prevalent fifty years ago than it is now. Things like "light-hearted" physical contact (the proverbial butt-slap), sexual comments about someone or their appearance, and of course systematic disadvantaging based on things like gender (or race, etc. if you want to go beyond sexual harassment).

    But let's be clear: even for the more serious offenses like physical assault or outright rape, it was a lot more difficult 50 years ago to get sanctions or help. People swept it under the rug, wrote it off with things like "well maybe she was asking for it", and so on. There's countless examples of this.

    Some of it is STILL happening. You say something like "give me dat ass" would get your ass kicked, but sexual harassment doesn't just happen out in the open where everyone can see it. We still have cases where it's he-said-she-said and nothing happens, or where some workers are more important than others and nothing gets done even with extensive evidence. I know a case personally, where a female friend was sent a very explicit video by a coworker; she had the proof in hand, but the company just transferred her to an effectively career-killing department instead and kept the guy around where he was because he was more valuable to the company.

    These things still happen. They happen less, but they still happen. And the more sneaky, difficult-to-see forms of harassment, bias, and prejudice are still a damn big problem.

    People like to think that just because we had #metoo sexual harassment is now done and no longer a thing. That's far from the truth. It has gotten a lot better since the 1970s (or earlier) but it's definitely not over and done with.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I didn't say they cared about it at a fundamental level. I said they care about it when its good for business. I'm sorry that you are so quick to condescend and correct people that you didn't bother to read what I said before condescending, but doubling down is weird.
    ….

    I honest to god can’t tell if you’re trolling or not.

    For your own sake, you’re just trolling right?

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Xires View Post
    So are Democrats- and you can get used to that. Btw, i'm an independent. But funny how you think that because someone doesn't agree with your minority left wing world views...that they suddenly get labeled as "right winger" or "conservative". Get out of YOUR echo chamber of wokeness. The world doesn't want what you are trying to force on it.
    An "independent" with a penchant for writing impromptu bibliographies about how the world is out to get straight white males while simultaneously admonishing "woke culture" as a partisan talking point. Kind of defeats the purpose of being independent when your values are plainly evident.

  20. #340
    You can't put people into BOXES that's not how freedom of diversity works, that's how you CONTROL people. You can't create a POWERPOINT PRESENTATION narrative about diversity in humanity because it only explains the creators apparent vision of DIVISION among humanity which let me tell you one thing.

    YOU SHALL NOT DIVIDE US. haha.

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