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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Valhalladin View Post
    So because you are white you have no culture? Lmao Who invents this crap.
    Racists and sexists. Which is how people are called which categorize other people based on race or sex.

  2. #542
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    There is no such thing as a european company. King doesnt span the entirety of europe its centered in sweden.

    You might aswell argue that King is an earth company for whatever merit you think that gives it. Its irrelevant.

    The reason for my coutner argument is that saying its an european company somehow links it with all of EU's countries but it has nothing to do with Denmark for example. Its just as much an american company as a danish company.
    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionar...pean-companies

    European Companies means (i) companies domiciled or with their registered office or primary place of business in Europe, (ii) holding companies that are predominantly invested in companies domiciled or with their registered office or primary place of business in Europe, (iii) companies which are listed or to be listed on any approved stock exchange in Europe, or (iv) companies with either the predominant part of their business operations or revenues derived or are expected to be derived from Europe.
    Domiciled means treating a specified country as a permanent home. So I used the term correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    There is such a thing as creating shit tailored for foreign markets, though. I'm not saying that we don't have our fair share of bs here in Europe, but just because something was made in a market doesn't necessarily mean it's meant for said market.
    True. However, I know for a fact that this stuff is being taught and used within Sweden as well. I know this, since I am studying games development as we speak at a school that has direct ties to Swedish companies like Dice and yes, even King. The news about this type of tool being made here does not surprise me in the slightest.
    Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2022-05-17 at 10:25 AM.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    There's a strange overlap of people offended by this tool's existence and those who are inclined to, unprompted, write paragraphs upon paragraphs about how persecuted straight white males are in this, God's year two-thousand-and-twenty-two.
    The real problem with the tool, is where it comes from, and how it even begin to work. Someone had to use their bias to even come up with some of the shown rank. Why is a dwarf closer to the "normal" 0 then Zarya in body type? Why is women a 5? How do you even begin to rank gender identity... the whole point is that everyone has one. Why is it even based on score to begin with? What does score even accomplish? So if you make two character, one woman and one transwoman. They both get 5 in gender? Or is Woman 5 and transwoman 10? Why a score? If you need scores, they are needed for something? Does it mean cis women need some disability or other "out of the norm" thing to their character to be ranked higher? Swedish character lower culture score then russian character, theres not enough russian in video games? Mabye the tool is trying to compensate for the fact 90% russian in media is a bad guy lol, but i mean Swedish people in game, is that even a thing? Ana body type is slim but slightly curvy, so the average women around the world, so she has a 0, so in order to make a diverse woman with average body type, you need to add other stuff into her why? Why is egyptian a 7/10? If you go to Egypt and edit a local movie script with that tool, does egyptian becomes a 0/10? I dont get the need to score thing. To me this screams like a lazy corporate tool.

    I seem to not be the only one puzzled by this. Jim Stephanie Sterling and Alanah Pearce have youtube video being similarly confused. These stats sheet make this look and sound way more creepy then it probably is. Where 0 is "normal" then trait of a character get judged by how "exotic and rare" they are. Which by itself is kinda offensive, super subjective, localized and sometime flat out wrong.

    I think this tool is just at the wrong part of the process. A similar tool could be used effectively without even needing scores. Probably would need an AI learning. But example, i write a story with some diverse cast, but i am a person and i write with my own bias and my inspiration. Once im finished i give the AI my cast of characters and it doesent need to score them. But instead the tool notice and give me the feedback, there is no representation of mental disability and physical disability in your story. Then i can go hmmmm. Does it make sense to add that, if it does which character in my mind this would fit well in the story for. Mabye the tool says you have no women in your cast... and in my head its like well its 4 guys that crashed on a desert island, so i can disregard that warning. I get that even they said in the correction of it that their tool is like just a side tool. The problem to me is where in the process this is and how it even works. Scoring better or worse diverse characters. Everyone is diverse. People diversity doesent end at 10 traits, it comes down all the way to lived experience, which the tool doesent even account for.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-05-17 at 10:46 AM.

  4. #544
    It would take effort to say anything constructive about this, even if it's just criticism.

    What I like best about it is how the white, heterosexual "western" man is the center and default, the 0 from which everything else is a deviation. In their rabid pursuit of diversity they've done the most racist thing possible.

    Also I find it extremely offensive that parts of my personality and identity are summed up by a graph made by underpaid paper cup coffee drinkers.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    The authorities in this case have based their recommendations on copious amounts of evidence that transition and acceptance leads to positive health outcomes. I can produce that evidence if you'd like.

    Your argument here may seem smart to you, but its indistinguishable from "Sure, the doctors say I shouldn't drink motor oil to treat my cold, but they were wrong about washing hands in the 19th century, so maybe I'm right!"
    Then use that evidence. Saying "well these doctors all agree so it must be true" is a poor argument for the reasons I put out. Also, I'd argue that the current wave of this situation is so drastically/radically different than historically. Rates of transitioning have jumped so high in the last 5 years - millennials are 30(?)% up while Gen Z is 50% up from where they were. Any data gathered on this will be shallow at best for the potential impact. IMO, we'll have an accurate example of how things are *maybe* ten years from now.

    And no, the two are not the same at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    And this is also a logical fallacy, known as the appeal to fallacy You have to actually demonstrate that someone is in error, you cannot assert that because they used a fallacy they are ipso facto in error.

    Not to mention that you have appeal to authority wrong, anyway. It's not a blanket condemnation of expertise, simply an acknowledgment that authority CAN be wrong, not that it IS wrong. Expertise should always be valued and considered, particularly by those who lack expertise in a subject.

    Edit: I should note that your second paragraph, regarding handwashing, is also a fallacy ... Argument from Anecdote. It's not in error, per se, but it doesn't apply to the argument that NineSpine was talking about, specifically, and so is irrelevant.
    Actually, I did demonstrate why the person is in error. I gave examples on how the concept of "x people believe, so y must be true!" is a faulty argument.

    And I disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    And the answer to mistakes in science is doing more and better science. Science gets things wrong. All the time. That's why it's a process, not a goal - science is what you do to get as close to the truth as you can by self-improving, iterative progress.

    What would your solution have been to the handwashing example? "This one guy who says it's true must be believed?" or "All those other doctors who say it's not true must be disbelieved?" or what? And under what justification?

    It's easy to go in with 20/20 hindsight and exclaim SEE THAT ONE GUY KNEW IT ALL ALONG AND THE SHEEPLE FOLLOWING THE MAINSTREAM WERE WRONG! But how do you tell who's right and wrong BEFORE the benefit of hindsight?

    The best way we have for that is to keep going and keep researching, and to adjust things as our knowledge increases. Sometimes it will turn out the one guy was right; very often it turns out that one guy was wrong. But you don't believe or disbelieve WITHOUT A GOOD REASON. And "sometimes people are wrong" is not a good reason, because it doesn't by itself lead to an increase in truth approximation.
    The handwashing example was a deliberate choice because the one guy actually did test it and had results. But he was shot down and silenced due to societal pressure and self-interest.

    I think it's important to keep researching and testing but also to be open-minded with the possibility that things can change / data go in a way that might be uncomfortable to people.

    Much like "sometimes people are wrong" isn't a good reason, "all these people believe it!" isn't a good reason, either.
    Last edited by FanaticDreamer; 2022-05-17 at 11:13 AM.

  6. #546
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    ...Aliens are never going to visit us. Good lord we're dumb as a species.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Ah yes, turning representation into a min-max spreadsheet, what could possibly go wrong?

    This is the dumbest possible idea anyone could've come up with.
    Good fucking lord.
    this sums it up rather perfectly imo.

    but the best thing was the title: „a leap forward“. sooooo great.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2022-05-17 at 11:29 AM.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Chilela View Post
    The "Nobody is actually using it" was done after the tool was originally announced, presumably as damage control.
    No. You must believe the corporation when they excitedly announce a tool like this only to flip around and say "A-ackchually we had no intention of using it, hehe," after they receive a massive amount of backlash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    My only question, between the un-woke, woke, or too-woke, does ANYBODY support a tool like this? I would think it would be offensive to everyone for different reasons. It seems to be more to protect the company than society, imo.
    Nobody does when presented with it.

    But the wokeoids have been pushing this mentality hard and this is just the logical outcome of a corporation weaponizing it. (as they do everything that makes them money or props up their image.)

    It's the equivalent of me asking you if you would want boots that allow you to fly. Chances are, you'd say yes to the concept. Then I return with these awfully hideous, overdesigned abominations that barely allow you to hover an inch off the ground. Suddenly, the idea seems a lot more silly.

    A lot of people pushing for "less white = more good" have been adamant about it for years, just that when they see the results of it, it suddenly looks a lot more silly (not to mention racist) than they realized. Rather than use it for introspection, they'll just continue to shit on ABK specifically rather than acknowledge that this is the bed they made and maybe consider that their world views and their stated goals and desires are flawed in one way or another.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionar...pean-companies



    Domiciled means treating a specified country as a permanent home. So I used the term correctly.

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    True. However, I know for a fact that this stuff is being taught and used within Sweden as well. I know this, since I am studying games development as we speak at a school that has direct ties to Swedish companies like Dice and yes, even King. The news about this type of tool being made here does not surprise me in the slightest.
    According to themselves they are primarily based in Malta and has a branch office in EU.

    That aside(them not being an european company) the link you gave me is also not an officially accepted definition of what a european company is. Its a bit like urban dictionary.

  10. #550
    This is honestly the logical result from the absurd nature of artistically void demands that have been rampaging the past few years. I dont know how people are surprised when a corporation seizes the chance to profit off this crowd in a way that reduces that very thing to numbers and pie charts.

    This is also the result of people wanting things to happen NOW NOW NOW and not allow progressive things to naturally take place as they will. An example I can think of is the university that I work in. Almost all of the professors currently are white males (its in the Netherlands so ok yeah). Professors are older people and its a position that is held for many years, usually until the day you retire meaning these people have likely been in this position for 10-15 years and are the results of the previous generation.
    There are protests and demands on a monthly basis for this to change and to have better representation NOW. Yet when I look at my fellow PhDs and Post-Docs, the diversity in our groups both in terms of gender and background is immense and I would even go as far as to say there are more female academics than males by a slight margin (at least in this university).
    The point I m trying to make is that this is now the generation that will succeed the one created by the system of the past and in a few years it will naturally and organically shift over to a more balanced and diverse working space. Yet if you were to run current statistics on the current work force, it would give you a flawed picture that academia is and will continue to be white male dominated when the shift is already in place.
    Removing artistic vision and shoehorning races and sexual orientations into pie charts and numbers will not result in a healthy transitioning to more diverse representation in video games. Continuing to hire in a fair way and allowing for artistic and creative freedom will.
    If an automated tool told me that the character I gave my love to and envisioned is "too able bodied" or "not the right race" you can bet that the chances of receiving a characters that feels like a living breathing product are far less likely as my original vision was not what the tool would promote.

  11. #551
    Anyone who ever uses such a chart should immediately go and see a therapist. And I mean that in all honesty: if someone considers it a good idea to apply these absurd charts to measure how "diverse" their product is, then something is mentally very wrong with that person. Because then they only see people as a chart of racist, sexist and bigott values instead of a living being.

  12. #552
    April Fools? Haha...

  13. #553
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    This is deeply, deeply not a good thing. And anyone who can't see that is not just part of the problem, they ARE the problem. Identity politics is cancer. You shouldn't need an algorithm or a computer problem to make a "diverse" (read as: non-white) character. Just... make a character. How is this hard? It is LITERALLY your job to be creative. Only in bloody Commiefornia.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by ResentfulUK View Post
    I honestly don't see the controversy or concern around this tool. If you throw your characters you're building for a game into this tool and realise because of it that actually the vast majority of your assets are broadly the same, where is the harm in recognising that and adding in more diverse characters?

    I'm not suggesting games should be forced to include every race, creed, ethnicity, religion, sexuality and any other identifying characteristic, but is there truly any harm in recognising that maybe some of your biases have produced a game that maybe doesn't need or warrant that bias?

    For some games, where historical accuracy is important, sure, there may be quite a substantial focus on one group, but for games like Overwatch or World of Warcraft is there really any harm in recognising that your characters may be are predominantly white and straight?

    Representation in games I do believe is important. Should characters be so outwardly gay it's shoved down people's throat, no. Does it hurt to however adapt the story to include that maybe a character is gay? Also no.

    I feel like much of the negative reaction is mostly based on those very biases these tool is designed to avoid. No-one is denying white, straight males should exist in games, but does it honestly ruin your game to at least design and build out a black gay character, or someone with a disability, or someone struggling with mental health?
    You are quantifying aspects of people they can't control on number based system it's super freaking creepy.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Racists and sexists. Which is how people are called which categorize other people based on race or sex.
    I think this concludes this tool. I'm looking forward for the day where a white male is not allowed in an video game, because he doesn't have enough "diversity-points". Oh, probably happened already.

    This tool is an atrocity. As said before: make a diverse team to make diverse characters, not a tool where you get points for everything that is't white, male or european culture group. No, this isn't an thoughtful character, he has 8 points in the diversity-scale, therefore he is in the game. You don't see characters, you see points.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionar...pean-companies



    Domiciled means treating a specified country as a permanent home. So I used the term correctly.

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    True. However, I know for a fact that this stuff is being taught and used within Sweden as well. I know this, since I am studying games development as we speak at a school that has direct ties to Swedish companies like Dice and yes, even King. The news about this type of tool being made here does not surprise me in the slightest.
    I can’t believe you took a nuanced response and you actually looked up the fucking definition of European country. Holy smokes Batman LOL

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    No. You must believe the corporation when they excitedly announce a tool like this only to flip around and say "A-ackchually we had no intention of using it, hehe," after they receive a massive amount of backlash.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Nobody does when presented with it.

    But the wokeoids have been pushing this mentality hard and this is just the logical outcome of a corporation weaponizing it. (as they do everything that makes them money or props up their image.)

    It's the equivalent of me asking you if you would want boots that allow you to fly. Chances are, you'd say yes to the concept. Then I return with these awfully hideous, overdesigned abominations that barely allow you to hover an inch off the ground. Suddenly, the idea seems a lot more silly.

    A lot of people pushing for "less white = more good" have been adamant about it for years, just that when they see the results of it, it suddenly looks a lot more silly (not to mention racist) than they realized. Rather than use it for introspection, they'll just continue to shit on ABK specifically rather than acknowledge that this is the bed they made and maybe consider that their world views and their stated goals and desires are flawed in one way or another.
    I don't want to misinterpret. So first off, who are these "wokeoids" you are referring to? Are you actually referring to the outliers on twitter (I.E. Tariq Nasheed) or is this a jab at all leftism that promotes inclusion?

    Or is it something else that I haven't described clearly enough?

  18. #558
    lots of weird creepy crap going on in society today, this just shows it
    Spooky and weird lol
    Good luck with that

  19. #559
    I'm really surprised how many of you are shocked by this. This has been implemented in some form with every [brand] we've consumed for years. The new dragon race is literally 1 non-binary androgynous gender with twink hair/face jewelry, exclusive to evoker to prop it up. Nobody says anything, and everyone pays for the products without question.
    Last edited by Gempalm; 2022-05-17 at 01:28 PM.

  20. #560
    When you start injecting your unchangeable characteristics into the decision making process, you open the door to it being used against you.

    Saying "We need to hire a woman for this role" makes "we need to hire a man for this role" allowable.

    "We need to hire more diverse workers" makes "we need to hire only straight asian men" ok as well.

    You can't do one without making the other acceptable.



    Either we judge people based on their merits, or we don't..... and if we don't..... don't be upset when a bunch of people decide to exclude you based on your race/gender/religion/sexuality/etc. You opened the door and said it was ok to judge based on that.

    That's why we were supposed to move BEYOND that and judge people on merit.

    F-ing regressive people.

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