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  1. #701
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    There are no radical and diverse politics at play, it's a tool that measures fake characters. The tool at it's worst is still nowhere as sinister as the actions of radical politicians and religious figures. If your taking the tool seriously then you need to turn that obsession towards your area's politics instead.
    An absolutely laughable statement. The topic has been highly politicized for the last decade and is actively being talked about within the political sphere, with many companies deciding to take direct political stances on various issues, one of such being this one. Besides, a lot of people are nowadays subscribing to the idea that "the personal is political", so to say that none of the people that worked on this tool do not follow this idea that everything has to be a political statement is absolutely ludicrous.

  2. #702
    “in a time when it was illegal for gay people to marry in many states”

    Yes the laws don’t always change in the right direction.

    “essentially “keep that gay shit to yourselves””

    Yes please do. I’m not interested in a person’s sexual preferences unless I’m considering that person to be my own sexual partner. So keep it to yourself, gay or not.
    (And I will skip the irony about “gay shit”)

    “you only deserve to be represented by X% of characters”.”

    So if there are probably 2-3% gay males worldwide (please don’t pick on numbers, I don’t know and don’t really want to know the details), the why should a game depict more than the same 2-3% of its NPCs as gay? Why in your opinion this group should be entitled and deserve more attention than their actual proportion to the populace?

    Then again, you are obviously tunneled and only have US in mind. You have your laws - including laws allowing gay marriages - but there are hundreds of other countries with different laws.
    For example, purchasing this product in a country where gay propaganda is forbidden (I am totally fine with it, your opinion may vary), I don’t want to see any mention of this social group, primarily because the game is not about sex.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    “in a time when it was illegal for gay people to marry in many states”

    Yes the laws don’t always change in the right direction.

    “essentially “keep that gay shit to yourselves””

    Yes please do. I’m not interested in a person’s sexual preferences unless I’m considering that person to be my own sexual partner. So keep it to yourself, gay or not.
    (And I will skip the irony about “gay shit”)

    “you only deserve to be represented by X% of characters”.”

    So if there are probably 2-3% gay males worldwide (please don’t pick on numbers, I don’t know and don’t really want to know the details), the why should a game depict more than the same 2-3% of its NPCs as gay? Why in your opinion this group should be entitled and deserve more attention than their actual proportion to the populace?

    Then again, you are obviously tunneled and only have US in mind. You have your laws - including laws allowing gay marriages - but there are hundreds of other countries with different laws.
    For example, purchasing this product in a country where gay propaganda is forbidden (I am totally fine with it, your opinion may vary), I don’t want to see any mention of this social group, primarily because the game is not about sex.
    You may not be interested, but it’s been shown and proven that other people do. If they didn’t, this would never have been a topic to begin with.

    Short answer: it’s their game and can develop it how they want. If they want to make a game where 80% of the world population identifies as LGBTQ+, then they have every right to do so.

    You are correct that other countries have their own laws, views, and beliefs on the subject. It’s also been shown those countries censor, or even outright ban, those products. You can say the game is not about sex, but the reverse is true. Why have any mention of any characters sexuality? If that’s your stance, fine; but, if you’re okay with a game depicting someone who talks about his wife or girlfriend, or has a protagonist trying to save their significant other with both of them being heterosexual, then it’s hypocritical to say you are okay with those being depicted in a game but not the other when the game isn’t about that.

    Getting back on topic, it makes sense why the diversity tool was thought to be a good idea, as it allows companies without diversity a chance to be inclusive and diverse without resorting to stereotypes or bad portrayals. That said, it wasn’t well thought out and overall isn’t the best idea as it reveals more problems than it attempts to solve.
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2022-05-21 at 12:26 PM.

  4. #704
    As I said above, there is no problem that requires fixing in the first place.

    “Why have any mention of any characters sexuality?”

    You’re probably mixing it with their gender. There is, quite obviously, no way to depict a fictional world without characters, actual males and females. However, unless the game is sexually themed, any mention of that matter beyond outstanding male/female characteristics is unnecessary. Say, wow and Varian Wrynn plot - do we need to know his sexual orientation to enjoy the story? Of course not. This, it shouldn’t be mentioned. Same for other similar cases.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    As I said above, there is no problem that requires fixing in the first place.

    “Why have any mention of any characters sexuality?”

    You’re probably mixing it with their gender. There is, quite obviously, no way to depict a fictional world without characters, actual males and females. However, unless the game is sexually themed, any mention of that matter beyond outstanding male/female characteristics is unnecessary. Say, wow and Varian Wrynn plot - do we need to know his sexual orientation to enjoy the story? Of course not. This, it shouldn’t be mentioned. Same for other similar cases.
    I know you're banned, but this is still worth addressing, since so many bigots like you try to use this stupid argument.

    I assume you throw just as much of a temper tantrum anytime a straight sexual relationship is mentioned in WoW?

    Like Malfurion and Tyrande?

    Or Sylvanas and Nathanos?

    Or Thrall and Aggra?

    Or Jaina and Kalec?

    And so on, and so on....

  6. #706
    This is what happens when you hire based on gender identity to hit a set goal vs hiring based on ability. Probably a good part of the reason Activision/Blizzard is down 63m monthly players Year over Year.

  7. #707
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmoden View Post
    I'm a straight white cis-genderd male, and I'm sorry (and apparently pretty boring as well...)
    You're sorry... okay, for what? And why?
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  8. #708
    Scarab Lord Azgraal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    What a stupid question, unless of course you've been living under a rock and are unaware that many minority groups, especially the ones you referenced, have been ignored and marginalized (and much worse) for generations. And what's with the ridiculous notion that relatively small casts of fictional characters (whether in games, movies, or other media) must adhere to the demographic breakdown of the entire world's population?

    Straight people (and other majority demographics) are NEVER going to be underrepresented across any form of media. If I wanted to only consume media that revolved around characters that match my demographic (straight male), I have a vast and ever increasing library to choose from. Frankly, the only people decrying increased representation for other groups are just reactionary bigots who can't stand the idea of losing even one inch of ground in a fight that they can't even lose. Talk about a trash ideology...
    Sorry but that doesn't make sense, that's such a stupid answer. So as a really small slice of the population has suffered some type of discrimination all new media must be thought from the group up around one minority or other?

    Can you really say with a straight face that tools like the one in this article are a positive thing and not just a cancer on society and companies missing the point of what it really means to not discriminate minorities?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Weilyn View Post
    This is what happens when you hire based on gender identity to hit a set goal vs hiring based on ability. Probably a good part of the reason Activision/Blizzard is down 63m monthly players Year over Year.
    Why focus on making sure the hiring selection process is fairer in order to get the best people for the job while there's quotas for:

    - Straights
    - Gays
    - Transgenders
    - Disabled people
    - Mentally ill people
    - Minorities
    - Reptiles
    - An IKEA garden chair
    - Feminists

    ?
    Diversity!

    /s

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Azgraal View Post
    Sorry but that doesn't make sense, that's such a stupid answer. So as a really small slice of the population has suffered some type of discrimination all new media must be thought from the group up around one minority or other?

    Can you really say with a straight face that tools like the one in this article are a positive thing and not just a cancer on society and companies missing the point of what it really means to not discriminate minorities?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why focus on making sure the hiring selection process is fairer in order to get the best people for the job while there's quotas for:

    - Straights
    - Gays
    - Transgenders
    - Disabled people
    - Mentally ill people
    - Minorities
    - Reptiles
    - An IKEA garden chair
    - Feminists

    ?
    Diversity!

    /s
    Gotta be careful with your language here someone might ‘ree’. They aren’t called quotas anymore they are called “diversity goals” while hiring. Get it right


    /s

  10. #710
    High Overlord PsychoSe7eN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Dreamer View Post
    Nobody gives a fuck. Literally.
    This. This. This.

    People supporting this tool are trash.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Frankly I find the tool offensive.

    I definitely won't be using it.

    Its a game ffs. After paying for an expansion, and then paying a monthly fee, can I please just play the game without someone judging me and telling me I'm not diverse enough?
    Thank you. Extremely offensive.

  11. #711
    Over 9000! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The stupidest part about this - and the overall era of social whatever we're in - is that everyone has been trained now to think that the only thing that can be "diverse" is how you look. (And orientation, I suppose)
    To be fair, this tool has several other metrics including ability, culture, and economic status.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Azgraal View Post
    Sorry but that doesn't make sense, that's such a stupid answer. So as a really small slice of the population has suffered some type of discrimination all new media must be thought from the group up around one minority or other?
    What was so confusing? You asked why there was a sudden shift to focus on more representation. It's very obviously a correction for generations worth of marginalization. It's really not that difficult to understand. Majority demographics still get majority representation so your idea that all media now must be designed from the ground up around minorities is a total ass-pull, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azgraal View Post
    Can you really say with a straight face that tools like the one in this article are a positive thing and not just a cancer on society and companies missing the point of what it really means to not discriminate minorities?
    Did you actually read the article? I know it was a lot of words, but take it slow and try to get through it. Maybe then you'll realize that what you THINK the tool does, isn't ACTUALLY what the tool does.

    As to your question, it's like asking if a yard stick is a positive thing or a cancer on the class room. This tool, like a yard stick, is nothing more than a measuring device. Just as a yard stick doesn't MAKE things a certain size, this tool doesn't create characters in a certain way.

    I understand why you're confused about this. You, like a lot of the other idiots in this thread, just saw that dreaded "diversity" word and immediately knee-jerked to "cancer on society".

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    I know you're banned, but this is still worth addressing, since so many bigots like you try to use this stupid argument.

    I assume you throw just as much of a temper tantrum anytime a straight sexual relationship is mentioned in WoW?

    Like Malfurion and Tyrande?

    Or Sylvanas and Nathanos?

    Or Thrall and Aggra?

    Or Jaina and Kalec?

    And so on, and so on....
    No, I have absolutely no objection against normal relationship being depicted.

    With the emphasis being on “normal”.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Gotta be careful with your language here someone might ‘ree’. They aren’t called quotas anymore they are called “diversity goals” while hiring. Get it right


    /s
    Same idiotic shit regardless of how you call it

  14. #714
    I couldn't give 2 shits about who fucks who.

    I just want to play the game, kill monsters and get loot ffs.

  15. #715
    36 pages over shit that has been used for decades by various groups, especially politicians and religious leaders.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    36 pages over shit that has been used for decades by various groups, especially politicians and religious leaders.
    The only people winning the culture wars are politicians.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    There are no radical and diverse politics at play, it's a tool that measures fake characters. The tool at it's worst is still nowhere as sinister as the actions of radical politicians and religious figures. If your taking the tool seriously then you need to turn that obsession towards your area's politics instead.
    My problem with the tool is that it "scores" 0-10 with 0 clearly meaning "bad" and 10 meaning "good" for diversity. The problem is that you could have your entire cast of characters be overweight, black, transgendered people that struggle with BPD or trauma and this tool would give you an amazing score! But that game wouldn't be actually diverse when everyone is the same. The way they score inherently makes value judgements about a characters "worthiness" based on identity metrics, that's bad.

    A better score system would be relative within a given cast of characters, with each metric point being a percentage based on the relationship to the rest of the cast. It should also have the admission that something like race cannot and should not be analyzed with the same metric you might use for "neurodiversity," Instead simply charting where your majorities are within a group. What a diversity tool should encourage is coverage, not high scores. Such a tool would analyze a majority cis, white, male cast and say "you have a problem" but it would also analyze a majority black, female, lesbian cast and say "you have a problem."

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    My problem with the tool is that it "scores" 0-10 with 0 clearly meaning "bad" and 10 meaning "good" for diversity. The problem is that you could have your entire cast of characters be overweight, black, transgendered people that struggle with BPD or trauma and this tool would give you an amazing score! But that game wouldn't be actually diverse when everyone is the same. The way they score inherently makes value judgements about a characters "worthiness" based on identity metrics, that's bad.

    A better score system would be relative within a given cast of characters, with each metric point being a percentage based on the relationship to the rest of the cast. It should also have the admission that something like race cannot and should not be analyzed with the same metric you might use for "neurodiversity," Instead simply charting where your majorities are within a group. What a diversity tool should encourage is coverage, not high scores. Such a tool would analyze a majority cis, white, male cast and say "you have a problem" but it would also analyze a majority black, female, lesbian cast and say "you have a problem."
    What you describe in the second paragraph is pretty much what the tool does. It uses inputs and baselines that can be changed to accommodate different settings, and spits out metrics based on how prevalent traits are within the group and compared to the baselines. So your example of an "entire cast of overweight, black, transgendered people" would garner a lot of "low" scores because of the lack of variety within the group. That doesn't mean it's a value judgement on those traits, it's just telling you "diversity amongst this cast of characters is low" and then it's up to the developers to decide what to do with that information. It's also not about saying "you have a problem" but rather "there might be room to develop these characters more".

    0 isn't "bad" and 10 isn't "good". The aim isn't to get an "amazing score" because that's not how the system works. They're really just an indication of how prevalent certain traits are given the parameters that are set beforehand. 0 means common, 10 means rare. And yeah, I've said it before, the "scoring" system as it's presented isn't great (partially because of how easily misconstrued it is by people who don't even read the article), but no matter what they went with the smooth brains would still try to use the system to grade themselves and then bitch about how it's unfair.

    With the last example you gave comparing a "cis, white, male cast" to a "black, female, lesbian cast", the tool is going to give both groups low scores because internally there's no diversity there. That might be fine depending on the setting the game takes place in, and from there the tool would also gauge a number of other traits that could tell you "hey, looks like you copy/pasted the template for "surfer dude-bro" or "sassy black woman" for all of these characters. Is there more room for variety here?".
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-05-24 at 09:45 PM.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    What you describe in the second paragraph is pretty much what the tool does. It uses inputs and baselines that can be changed to accommodate different settings, and spits out metrics based on how prevalent traits are within the group and compared to the baselines. So your example of an "entire cast of overweight, black, transgendered people" would garner a lot of "low" scores because of the lack of variety within the group. That doesn't mean it's a value judgement on those traits, it's just telling you "diversity amongst this cast of characters is low" and then it's up to the developers to decide what to do with that information. It's also not about saying "you have a problem" but rather "there might be room to develop these characters more".

    0 isn't "bad" and 10 isn't "good". The aim isn't to get an "amazing score" because that's not how the system works. They're really just an indication of how prevalent certain traits are given the parameters that are set beforehand. 0 means common, 10 means rare. And yeah, I've said it before, the "scoring" system as it's presented isn't great (partially because of how easily misconstrued it is by people who don't even read the article), but no matter what they went with the smooth brains would still try to use the system to grade themselves and then bitch about how it's unfair.

    With the last example you gave comparing a "cis, white, male cast" to a "black, female, lesbian cast", the tool is going to give both groups low scores because internally there's no diversity there. That might be fine depending on the setting the game takes place in, and from there the tool would also gauge a number of other traits that could tell you "hey, looks like you copy/pasted the template for "surfer dude-bro" or "sassy black woman" for all of these characters. Is there more room for variety here?".
    If that really is how the tool is intended to work...yeah that's not so bad. I'll just have to agree that they did a pretty terrible job presenting it because the example photos were like handing over the loaded gun for PR backlash.

  20. #720
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    No, I have absolutely no objection against normal relationship being depicted.

    With the emphasis being on “normal”.
    See, this says a lot about you as a person. It says that you think anyone that's not straight is a freak, that they're unnatural, that they're wrong. Because, after all, if they weren't, they would be "normal", wouldn't they?

    Despite the fact that they're only acting on things completely out of their control. There's nothing wrong with being gay, or bi, or transgender, or anything else. They are people, just like you and I, and are deserving of all the same rights and respect as anyone else (this coming from a straight white cis male).

    Please, try to educate yourself on the matter. Maybe actually have some conversations with LGBT+ people. You might learn something important.

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