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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    While I can accept that it's more about the overall picture, the foundation should be about the underlying story. Otherwise what's the point about factions, classes, races, characterization? You're paying money to just login and kill things? I submit the fact that the lore has gone afu off the deep end but should that be encouraged? To not care about such an aspect of the game? Business-wise it's cheaper, less work to manage.

    hmf...I think Thrall should have sacrificed himself in defeating (not killing) Deathwing.
    To me it feels like Blizzard is writing their story -as told throughout the campaign and cutscenes- at the detriment to what you're referring to as the underlying story.

    The underlying story is this tapestry of subfactions, each with their own culture and history, at odds or in alliances with each other. This requires a lot of worldbuilding. It wouldn't be fair to say Blizzard is neglecting their duty to build such words, they do. But they certainly are keen to push all of that to the background for the sake of whatever Magni and Thrall are up to now.

    I would be perfectly fine if Blizzard were to drop this overarching story, or reduced it to a formality (like with Onyxia in Vanilla) to give more exposure to all these mundane beings living in their world. Give the player more content in regards to exploring villages, fortresses, markets, covens and cult hideout, and less content about chasing around protagonist faction leaders.

  2. #142
    So there's been some development lately... As in there's now an opening in the WoW team for a Narrative Director. Danuser is still the Narrative DESIGNER but there's now an actual opening for a DIRECTOR

  3. #143
    Good. They should poach one of the Games Workshop authors. GW guards their canon like a hawk. They have this neat thing where all the authors have to abide to secret axioms on which the lore is build, but they can't reveal it. They can only allude to it leaving the players to wonder about what the real secrets behind the universe are.

    That's the opposite of what Blizzard did, not only is their universe infinitely smaller than GW's, they also decided it was a good idea to let the player visit the primordial creation chambers to show how the sausage was made.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Legends303 View Post
    Steve Danuser is sacked. After BFA and Shadowlands screw ups in the lore and don't get me started on how they screwed up Arthas and Sylvanas. I don't think Dragon Flight's lore is going to be good as long as this guy is lead helm in the story department.
    Warcraft lore was never good, entertaining low average at its peak, if they can get back to mediocrity remains to be seen.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imrindar View Post
    they need to craft lore and stories without caring who thinks their faction is being wronged.
    1000% this.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    that even years later you've people taking the people how we didn't know why we mugged Illidan..
    Yes, and i call those "people who haven't paid attention to dialogue in Warcraft 3".
    If you didn't think Illidan would be a villain when we move into Outland, you just haven't paid attention to what he said at the end of Bloodelf campaign in TFT.

    The main reason why this is something people get mad is because Illidan was a popular anti Hero, except he was then at the end in the position of what is frankly a villain, ruling as tyrant over this shattered world with an army of Demons, Fel orcs and Naga.
    And for none of those races, we ever needed a deeper reason to kill them, because they've always been evil.

    Of all the wrongs of TBC, this is the one i will always disagree with because people just turn a blind eye towards very villain esque lines of Illidan the second he took over from Magtheridon.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yes, and i call those "people who haven't paid attention to dialogue in Warcraft 3".
    If you didn't think Illidan would be a villain when we move into Outland, you just haven't paid attention to what he said at the end of Bloodelf campaign in TFT.

    The main reason why this is something people get mad is because Illidan was a popular anti Hero, except he was then at the end in the position of what is frankly a villain, ruling as tyrant over this shattered world with an army of Demons, Fel orcs and Naga.
    And for none of those races, we ever needed a deeper reason to kill them, because they've always been evil.

    Of all the wrongs of TBC, this is the one i will always disagree with because people just turn a blind eye towards very villain esque lines of Illidan the second he took over from Magtheridon.
    This hinges on a portrayal of Outland that isn't based on WC3 but TBC. For Illidan to oppress some kind of functional society is based on there being such a society and the WC3 rendition of Outland wasn't that. The world we were presented was a barren ruin where the only deciding factor was who was at the top of the heap. Illidan ruled over demons and fel orcs because that's all there was over there, the draenei exempt, for whom he was presented pretty clearly as a better option than Magtheridon. Ditto, there was no indication that his help for them or the blood elves were anything but genuine and while Illidan was destructive and caused collateral damage, his intentions weren't framed as explicitly villainous. The Night Elf campaign ends by having him leave Azeroth on passable terms with his brother and it's the one who still wants to chase him, consequences be damned that is shown as unreasonable in this. TBC is the one that creates a polity for Illidan to oppress and far from Kael being shown as evil for working with Kael and Vashj, him being assumed to be such by Garithos, a complete strawman, is the point of the campaign.

    We never really get that Illidan again, no more than we ever get WC3 Kael again, who's a pretty measured, restrained leader. The closest we ever get to the "dumbass who causes collateral for a grand act" Illidan is him opening the way to Argus and frying Xe'ra, but neither has consequences unlike his RTS acts. Meanwhile the only half-decent Kael story is Chronicle, with TBC Kael needing no comment and SL Kael having him be preening and arrogant which RTS Kael never was, being more of a patchjob on his already completely beside the point TBC characterization than a return to form.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-05-21 at 11:02 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  8. #148
    The lore won't be good again until __________.

    2 = 3

    Hell freezes over

    she makes me a cambric shirt, without no seems nor needle work
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This hinges on a portrayal of Outland that isn't based on WC3 but TBC. For Illidan to oppress some kind of functional society is based on there being such a society and the WC3 rendition of Outland wasn't that.
    No, declaring yourself as ruler of a given plane and that everyone will now serve yourself is always something only a villain does.

    This has nothing to do with how Outland was portrayed, Illidan wanted to become the absolute ruler of Outland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Illidan ruled over demons and fel orcs because that's all there was over there
    That awfully sounds like framing as if this a good thing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    TBC is the one that creates a polity for Illidan to oppress
    With Illidan ruling Outland, there was no way to portray Outland and have Illidan as something resembling of an ally to the player, unless you want to expand Outland in the sense that Illidan in fact didn't take control all over Outland and everyone else there is arguably worse than him.
    Or that Illidan somehow lost control of Outland, but then again, why would we want to help Illidan?

    Illidan ruling Outland and being a tyrant is the logical conclusion of TFT (not counting him dying at the hands of Arthas), because that's what he effectively said at he is at the end of the blood elf campaign.

  10. #150
    We were robbed of a villain in tbc because Blizz needed another recognizable leader figure for Legion. Illidan did for demon hunters what Arthas did for deathknights. Unlike other shitty retcons this one was rather pungent.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, declaring yourself as ruler of a given plane and that everyone will now serve yourself is always something only a villain does.

    This has nothing to do with how Outland was portrayed, Illidan wanted to become the absolute ruler of Outland.

    That awfully sounds like framing as if this a good thing to do.
    If you're trying to bait me into saying that there's no particular moral burden in enslaving always chaotic evil demons and fel orcs in a ruined landscape consisting of nothing but, you don't need to, that's my premise and also the way TFT is framed. TFT doesn't frame Illidan as being evil for taking over Outland because Outland is a shithole run by barely sentient monsters, not a viable land consisting of different lands and polities. Illidan is hostile relative to Azeroth, but in Outland he's the lesser of those evils.

    With Illidan ruling Outland, there was no way to portray Outland and have Illidan as something resembling of an ally to the player, unless you want to expand Outland in the sense that Illidan in fact didn't take control all over Outland and everyone else there is arguably worse than him.
    Or that Illidan somehow lost control of Outland, but then again, why would we want to help Illidan?

    Illidan ruling Outland and being a tyrant is the logical conclusion of TFT (not counting him dying at the hands of Arthas), because that's what he effectively said at he is at the end of the blood elf campaign.
    The Outland of TFT was HFC, a land consisting of nothing but demons, fel orcs and if they wanted to draw from former sources, elements of the expeditions in WC2. It's a land where there were no positive factions or put upon natives to opress, but the natives themselves were scraping by a subsistence level existence, like the draenei. Expanding that version of Outland would indeed present Illidan as the lesser of the evils present, that being the Legion, which isn't hard to do. It's exactly what the RTS did. TBC massively expanded Outland and, as Warcraft is wont to do in every expansion except Wrath, produces generic underdogs for us to protect against the baddie de jour. The massively underwritten Kurenai and Mag'har, much like the post-draenei retcon draenei serve the purpose of making Illidan a one-note baddie oppressing them. Illidan could be in character and still be the tyrant of Outland, hell, we could still clash with them, but taking two and a half anti heroes as he, Kael and to a point Vashj are in the RTS and turning them into Saturday Morning Cartoon villains was part of what Outland was expanded to enable. There were good things to come out of the draenei and OL retcons, but almost all of them are exclusive to future expansions.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Illidan is hostile relative to Azeroth, but in Outland he's the lesser of those evils.
    Which does certainly cause issues the second we would ever have stepped into Outland for whatever reasons.

    Nevermind that the Horde would've at issues with him under any circumstances due to his employ of Fel orcs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Expanding that version of Outland would indeed present Illidan as the lesser of the evils present, that being the Legion, which isn't hard to do. It's exactly what the RTS did.
    After Illidan deposed Magtheridon, it would've made little sense that the there's actually sizeable Legion outposts on Outland.
    After all, the entire point of the Bloodelf campaign was to cut off the Legion from Outland and claim it for Illidan.

    And at best, it would've been an exact rerun of the TFT campaign.
    We arrive, help Illidan secure his reign and that's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The massively underwritten Kurenai and Mag'har, much like the post-draenei retcon draenei serve the purpose of making Illidan a one-note baddie oppressing them.
    I think the Mag'har were fairly reasonable established, at least for the standards at the time.

    And the fact that Illidan went after them and tried to capture to create more Fel Orcs, well, wasn't exactly out of character nor misplaced in my opinion, considering the history of Orcs being enslaved by Pit lords and such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Illidan could be in character and still be the tyrant of Outland, hell, we could still clash with them, but taking two and a half anti heroes as he, Kael and to a point Vashj are in the RTS and turning them into Saturday Morning Cartoon villains was part of what Outland was expanded to enable.
    Kael'thas is arguably the only character i would count there.

    Vashj however, no idea what people have with this character.
    Her motifs for following Illidan were never really explored (at least in WC3 that is), she's all just being serving Illidan from the Night elf Campaign to the end of the Bloodelf campaign.
    Unlike Kael'thas, she barely has any agency of herself to join Illidan, it's been alluded to that the Naga similiar to Blood elves suffer from a magic addiction, but that seems kinda odd considering they've been that way for 10.000 years, whereas the Blood elves addiction was caused by a recent event.

    We can all argue about TBC lore, but killing Illidan considering that he made himself absolute ruler of Outland set him on the collision course with the player the second they step into Outland.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Illidan ruling Outland and being a tyrant is the logical conclusion of TFT (not counting him dying at the hands of Arthas), because that's what he effectively said at he is at the end of the blood elf campaign.
    To be fair it was all a bit crude though wasn't it? Vashj, Kael and Illidan being comically evil villains is mostly due to the limitations in storytelling in TBC. It's likely that Blizzard would come up with something a bit more complex since then. Of course complexity itself isn't necessarily better and as Blizzard has shown, it can still be used for ham-fisted stories. But they've also shown attempts at adding more depth to Illidan and Kael later on.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    To be fair it was all a bit crude though wasn't it? Vashj, Kael and Illidan being comically evil villains is mostly due to the limitations in storytelling in TBC.
    Wouldn't call them comically.
    Comically was what they did with the LK in Wotlk, where he kept showing up, taunting you and then went off.

    Kael'thas, Vashj and Illidan were, if anything, underdeveloped.
    Vashj was just sitting in SSC, whereas it's been mostly just shown that the Naga are in fact slavers and want to control the water in Outland.
    Kael'thas seemed to have an early case of "Sylvanas Syndrome" and teamed up with the guy who created the force that wrecked his home with no proper explanation.
    And well, Illidan did almost nothing except that that one or two lines in that SMV questchain and showed up at the end of Netherwing quests.

    I think a big issue is that people knew these characters but they acted almost exclusively via intermediaries.
    They all had their servants across Outland, but they themselves did almost nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    But they've also shown attempts at adding more depth to Illidan and Kael later on.
    Yeah but in Illidan's case they basically whitewashed all of his actions reframed him from a flawed, selfish person, to a misunderstood hero whose underlying goal is the destruction of the Burning Legion, whereas WC3 largely established that he has more selfish motifs.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Which does certainly cause issues the second we would ever have stepped into Outland for whatever reasons.

    Nevermind that the Horde would've at issues with him under any circumstances due to his employ of Fel orcs.
    Only because Illidan is pushed into the limelight as the main villain, and that is so half-assed that, for one thing we step into Outland because of a Legion attack, not one by Illidan. The Horde crossing the world on its own accord in order to pursue Illidan because he had Fel Orcs in his employ is logistically farcical.

    After Illidan deposed Magtheridon, it would've made little sense that the there's actually sizeable Legion outposts on Outland.
    After all, the entire point of the Bloodelf campaign was to cut off the Legion from Outland and claim it for Illidan.

    And at best, it would've been an exact rerun of the TFT campaign.
    We arrive, help Illidan secure his reign and that's it.
    It would've made so little sense that TBC is based around there being sizable Legion initiatives within Outland, including Kael working for it. TBC is already premised upon the Legion being a factor in Outland as well as being the end villain of the expansion as well as the initiator of it through Kazzak's invasion. Making Illidan not be an antagonist we kill in it would be as simple as having us realize that pitting us against Illidan was the Legion's objective, as in the Illidan book and after kicking his forces' asses we team up with them to get it through. The illogic of there being Legion positions in Outland given Illidan conquered it in TFT is moot considering that not only does TBC already do it and hinge both its opening and ending on it, but Outland was expanded specifically to allow for major Legion presence.

    I think the Mag'har were fairly reasonable established, at least for the standards at the time.

    And the fact that Illidan went after them and tried to capture to create more Fel Orcs, well, wasn't exactly out of character nor misplaced in my opinion, considering the history of Orcs being enslaved by Pit lords and such.
    I don't mind the Mag'har, though I find the people who're sad we didn't get them instead of the AU Mag'har ridiculous in light of how little substance the MU Mag'har actually have, but most of their lore and their interesting factors come in in later expansions. Illidan needing to abduct them is dubious in light of an expansion where he's already forcibly breeding and mass injecting fel orcs, which is already morally repugnant enough without being illogical. Illidan can be a tyrant and have negative traits without being engaged in acts of pointless antagonism against hitherto unmentioned sub-races.

    Kael'thas is arguably the only character i would count there.

    Vashj however, no idea what people have with this character.
    Her motifs for following Illidan were never really explored (at least in WC3 that is), she's all just being serving Illidan from the Night elf Campaign to the end of the Bloodelf campaign.
    Unlike Kael'thas, she barely has any agency of herself to join Illidan, it's been alluded to that the Naga similiar to Blood elves suffer from a magic addiction, but that seems kinda odd considering they've been that way for 10.000 years, whereas the Blood elves addiction was caused by a recent event.

    We can all argue about TBC lore, but killing Illidan considering that he made himself absolute ruler of Outland set him on the collision course with the player the second they step into Outland.
    Again, the players being in conflict with Illidan upon entering the expanded TBC Outland isn't a requisite plot point even in the expansion as presented. Illidan doesn't initiate TBC's conflict, the Legion, Illidan's enemy, does. Our collision course with him is based around him and his forces just being there, and us later finding out he's become Skeletor off-screen. Vashj, despite her TBC plotline about stealing water being naturally for the expansion underexplored and weird, isn't really morally aside from her given the naga, but the naga being magic addicted isn't really a nonsensical plot point. She supports the blood elves and Illidan for being kindred spirits, but has little thought to spare for her enemies, hence while I still think she was wasted, she's nowhere in the category of Illidan and Kael and it's why her SL portrayal is better than either SL Kael or Legion Illidan, as it's entirely true to her character.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Only because Illidan is pushed into the limelight as the main villain, and that is so half-assed that, for one thing we step into Outland because of a Legion attack, not one by Illidan. The Horde crossing the world on its own accord in order to pursue Illidan because he had Fel Orcs in his employ is logistically farcical.
    Again, it falls back to that you'd then have to come up with some reason why Illidan for some reason isn't the uncontested ruler of Outland anymore or why we should help him in the first place.

    The Horde has had reason enough to go through a reopened Dark Portal, as Thrall exploring what happened to the remaining Orcs on Draenor isn't exactly a crapshoot of a storyline.
    Which then would naturally cause issues with Illidan, who employ Fel Orcs and continues to create new ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    TBC is already premised upon the Legion being a factor in Outland as well as being the end villain of the expansion as well as the initiator of it through Kazzak's invasion.
    The crux of this expansion however comes with the fact that Outland itself is expanded and Blizzard won't make an entire expansion with multiple zones of barren, corrupted wastelands.
    At which point, you gotta put stuff in there that isn't completely corrupted / evil and that's where the issue and his declaration to be "Lord of Outland" comes from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Illidan needing to abduct them is dubious in light of an expansion where he's already forcibly breeding and mass injecting fel orcs, which is already morally repugnant enough without being illogical. Illidan can be a tyrant and have negative traits without being engaged in acts of pointless antagonism against hitherto unmentioned sub-races.
    I don't see how this is illogical considering all it does for him is increase is own ranks even faster.
    It's only illogical if you assume that it'll bring the Horde onto his bad side, which i don't think is a factor Illidan has to reasonably consider as there is no pathway to Outland at the time he takes over.

    Nevermind that i doubt Illidan had any noteworthy information on the New Horde at any point between his imprisonment or his departure for Outland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Our collision course with him is based around him and his forces just being there, and us later finding out he's become Skeletor off-screen.
    He declared himself to be Skeletor in TFT already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    but the naga being magic addicted isn't really a nonsensical plot point
    It's a nonsense plotpoint, because the Naga were basically free for 10.000 to find a solution for their addiction, but then rely on someone who was instrumental in destroying their initial plans to cure them.
    And what's his solution? *gasp* Take it from demons, which is something that anyone who participated in the WotA should figure out.

    By comparison, the blood elves addiction is caused by the destruction of the Sunwell, which was a recent event, it's not like they had time to figure alternatives for over 10.000 years.
    That's why i think it makes little sense, the Naga are an ancient race who must've suffered from this addiction for a huge ass time and Illidan's proposed solution isn't exactly a groundbreaking one to the former Highborne.

    Disregarding that it's never brought up again, whereas this whole magic addiction thing for Blood elves carried over into Classic / TBC.

  17. #157
    Rejigging some of the points to answer the points where they're relevant to avoid repeating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Again, it falls back to that you'd then have to come up with some reason why Illidan for some reason isn't the uncontested ruler of Outland anymore or why we should help him in the first place.
    TBC already does this. Illidan is not the uncontested ruler of Outland. The zones he has majority control over are Zangarmarsh, Hellfire Peninsula and Shadowmoon Valley, and even in Shadowmoon the Black Temple is being besieged by the Legion. Making a point out of how a hypothetical TBC where Illidan isn't a cartoon would have to retcon that he was the sole ruler of Outland is moot in so far as that's already the case in the version we got.

    The crux of this expansion however comes with the fact that Outland itself is expanded and Blizzard won't make an entire expansion with multiple zones of barren, corrupted wastelands.
    At which point, you gotta put stuff in there that isn't completely corrupted / evil and that's where the issue and his declaration to be "Lord of Outland" comes from.

    He declared himself to be Skeletor in TFT already.
    Yes, the premise of the expansion requires changing what Outland is, which was a good decision. But by changing Outland to have multiple cultures and societies with some of the lands being functional along with a population that isn't demons or fel orcs that changes the implications of Illidan. Illidan being a tyrant over a demonic wasteland with all of his allies being willing and having their lot improved by association with him, and his subjects consisting 99% of monster is a very different state of affairs from Illidan presiding over the TBC version of Outland. You're faced with either changing the implications of what Illidan did by having him also tyrannize the newly introduced fresh societies, changing the context the character exists in and thus the morality of what he did from the original premise or to localize his claim of being 'Lord of Outland' to only affecting the areas where the population matches the WC3 description. Illidan being a blowhard claiming he's the ruler of the world when he controls one castle in it wouldn't be out of bounds for his WC3 incarnation by any stretch. TBC does both. Illidan isn't lord of Outland, he controls like half of it and he isn't even the guy we enter into Outland for and he isn't an aggressor towards us. But he also still tyrannizes the portions he does control where these newly introduced populations are added.

    The Horde has had reason enough to go through a reopened Dark Portal, as Thrall exploring what happened to the remaining Orcs on Draenor isn't exactly a crapshoot of a storyline.
    Which then would naturally cause issues with Illidan, who employ Fel Orcs and continues to create new ones.

    I don't see how this is illogical considering all it does for him is increase is own ranks even faster.
    It's only illogical if you assume that it'll bring the Horde onto his bad side, which i don't think is a factor Illidan has to reasonably consider as there is no pathway to Outland at the time he takes over.

    Nevermind that i doubt Illidan had any noteworthy information on the New Horde at any point between his imprisonment or his departure for Outland.
    Entirely agreed, and you wouldn't even need to change Illidan from his TFT situation or have him be an anti-hero or an ally later on to get to this point. You could easily have Hellfire Peninsula unfold pretty much as is and have the Horde break the back of Illidan's fel orc forces given they're both a strategic threat and against what the Thrall-led Horde stands for with the Legion role downplayed and pivot from there to an alliance of convenience against the Legion. The issue with the premise isn't that the Horde fight fel orcs holding a land they want to get, my asspain about killing Kargath aside, this is all in line with the status quo set up in WC3. It's the way the Outland changes and Illidan's cartoon villainy affects all the places and societies that didn't exist at the time of the RTS and how it clashes with the appeal of the character and how he works in the RTS.

    It's a nonsense plotpoint, because the Naga were basically free for 10.000 to find a solution for their addiction, but then rely on someone who was instrumental in destroying their initial plans to cure them.
    And what's his solution? *gasp* Take it from demons, which is something that anyone who participated in the WotA should figure out.

    By comparison, the blood elves addiction is caused by the destruction of the Sunwell, which was a recent event, it's not like they had time to figure alternatives for over 10.000 years.
    That's why i think it makes little sense, the Naga are an ancient race who must've suffered from this addiction for a huge ass time and Illidan's proposed solution isn't exactly a groundbreaking one to the former Highborne.

    Disregarding that it's never brought up again, whereas this whole magic addiction thing for Blood elves carried over into Classic / TBC.
    At least as far as WC3 is concerned, Vashj pitches Kael to drain demons for power and that Illidan can show him how, but there's no indication that that's what the naga were doing and we know from later lore that it isn't there. The naga living in a magical empire situated right where the Well of Eternity was and being drip-fed magic by an Old God per the new lore keeps them supplied, but they're still addicts, much like how the blood elves are still addicts even with the Sunwell back, they've just got an endless supply and a free crack pipe for the whole population so long as it's up. It doesn't come up much, besides Blizzard forgetting about it because they're hacks, because they're close to magic. When they need to nab something, like in BFA the naga in Nazmir are going after Krag'wa's frogs to feed their addiction it comes up. We see it more often with the blood elves because they're an actual playable race.

    Mind, I'll concede that the naga addiction is underexplored and poorly covered, though not quite as bad as the absolute nadir of that plot point, which were the Shen'dralar and that Vashj's allegiance to Illidan is underwritten at absolute best.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Kael'thas seemed to have an early case of "Sylvanas Syndrome" and teamed up with the guy who created the force that wrecked his home with no proper explanation.
    Kael'thas literally narrates his own motives in the 2.4 trailer. He wanted powerful for his people and allied with Illidan for it. He came to believe Illidan wasn't going to provide is quickly enough so he turned to someone he thought would. We only later find out in Legion that Illidan did in fact have all the magic in the world to give to Kael'thas for his people, he was just waiting for Kael'thas to prove he wasn't an impatient and reckless guy before entrusting him with it. A test Kael'thas failed. It was very tragic.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    TBC already does this. Illidan is not the uncontested ruler of Outland. The zones he has majority control over are Zangarmarsh, Hellfire Peninsula and Shadowmoon Valley, and even in Shadowmoon the Black Temple is being besieged by the Legion. Making a point out of how a hypothetical TBC where Illidan isn't a cartoon would have to retcon that he was the sole ruler of Outland is moot in so far as that's already the case in the version we got.
    He not only have to be contested as ruler, but effectively deposed, because you can't reasonably have a continent where the actual ruler is on your side.

    Imagine for a moment an Outland where Illidan was in fact in your side, HFC wouldn't make a lick of sense, neither would Zangarmarsh nor Shadowmoon valley.
    That's the problem, unless we talk about really basic threats (a.k.a. lowlevel Vanilla stuff), you can't just have the ruler on your side because WoW zones are generally filled with hostile enemies.

    You'd have to come up with a reason that would have us Illidan reinstate as Ruler of Outland, when we could pick just some random Horde / Alliance / Neutral schmuck instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, the premise of the expansion requires changing what Outland is, which was a good decision. But by changing Outland to have multiple cultures and societies with some of the lands being functional along with a population that isn't demons or fel orcs that changes the implications of Illidan. Illidan being a tyrant over a demonic wasteland with all of his allies being willing and having their lot improved by association with him, and his subjects consisting 99% of monster is a very different state of affairs from Illidan presiding over the TBC version of Outland
    The problem of this is that Blizzard not once has created an expansion that entirely consists out of barren wasteland zones and from there on, it's unlikely that their denizens are in fact worse than Illidan and his army of Demons, Naga and Fel Orcs.
    Again, every expansion also had us team up with some locals, TBC was no different in this regard.

    Especially the Naga Slavery part isn't something out of the blue, Naga already enslaved Murloc / Mur'ghul to serve them in TFT.

    Like, it's not impossible to create a hypothetical expansion where Illidan is in fact some sort of Ally, but you'd have to jump through so many hoops to make that believeable and then even raises the question why we should help Illidan in particular.
    When he's still in charge, he would almost certainly have already done some bad shit because you can't expand Outland and keep that everyone is literally worse than him.
    When he's been effectively deposed, it raises the question why we should reinstate Illidan.

    I just don't see this happening, let alone something Blizzard was storywise capable in 2007, Illidan was the ruler of Outland, he had any army of really evil beings, said army did some bad shit, hence he ended up as enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Kael'thas literally narrates his own motives in the 2.4 trailer. He wanted powerful for his people and allied with Illidan for it. He came to believe Illidan wasn't going to provide is quickly enough so he turned to someone he thought would. We only later find out in Legion that Illidan did in fact have all the magic in the world to give to Kael'thas for his people, he was just waiting for Kael'thas to prove he wasn't an impatient and reckless guy before entrusting him with it. A test Kael'thas failed. It was very tragic.
    None of this changes the fact that Kael'thas teamed up with Kil'jaeden, the (at least at the time) creator of the Lich King, who is chief responsibly for wrecking Quel'thalas.

    Disregarding the politics between Kael'thas Outland Blood elves and the Blood elves remaining in Silvermoon is pretty...barren, the were enemies of Kael'thas just because.
    Then in 2.4 Kael'thas showed up, stole M'uru and tried to do some bad shit with the Sunwell.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    None of this the fact that Kael'thas teamed up with Kil'jaeden, the (at least at the time) creator of the Lich King, who is chief responsibly for wrecking Quel'thalas.

    Disregarding the politics between Kael'thas Outland Blood elves and the Blood elves remaining in Silvermoon is pretty...barren, the were enemies of Kael'thas just because.
    Then in 2.4 Kael'thas showed up, stole M'uru and tried to do some bad shit with the Sunwell.
    Blizzard has been entirely mum on whether Kael'thas was aware of these facts. You need to be careful not to confuse your own knowledge as a player looking in with what the character knows. Is a horror movie badly written because the characters go into a place you know the monster is waiting? Did the blood elves even keep records of the War of the Ancients and even know demons had invaded once before? If they did Kil'jaeden was still an unknown to Azeroth, having not played a part in that war directly. Kil'jaeden could've totally gone "those were some other demons" and Kael'thas would've had no evidence to argue. Unlike Arthas who had ghostly Kel'thuzad whispering to him all the time warning him against the Legion Kael'thas has no such benefit. All Kael knows is undead wiped out Lordaeron, then his kingdom, then Dalaran after he left it to return to Quel'thalas after getting word of its destruction. Where is the link for Kael'thas to connect the undead to Kil'jaeden?

    Up until 2.4 all blood elves were technically under Kael'thas's command through his Regent Lor'themar. Them being hostile and attackable ingame is purely a game mechanic. As we go through Outland the narrative is blood elf pilgrims are trying to reach the "promised land" in Netherstorm that Kael'thas has been proclaiming. Seeing messed up things like the stone giants in Hellfire Penninsula and the mana bomb in Terokkar make people start wondering but it's not until later that a tipping point happens. During the Netherstorm storyline both Scryers and Aldor get proof of Kael's allegiance with the Legion. Word of this quickly got back to Silvermoon which caused them to disavow Kael'thas.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

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