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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Blizzard has been entirely mum on whether Kael'thas was aware of these facts.
    The Scourge literally summoned Archimonde and helped them at the Battle of Mount Hyjal.
    People have been aware that the Scourge and Legion are in league with each other.

    Nevermind that Kil'jaeden ordered Illidan (again) to destroy the Frozen Throne, so Kael'thas should at this point have put 1 and 1 together and realized that the Legion may be behind the Scourge.

    And that also doesn't even account that Lore books all over Azeroth said the same thing, so it's not like that this was somehow secretive knowledge by the time of TBC.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._the_Lich_King
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Did the blood elves even keep records of the War of the Ancients and even know demons had invaded once before?
    Kael'thas recognized Night elves in TFT and greeted them in Darnassian, i think High elves were aware of their (former) home.

    And the Sunwell had been enchanted in a way to avoid detection from Demons, as to not attract them (again), the Runestones in Quel'thalas exist for this reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    If they did Kil'jaeden was still an unknown to Azeroth, having not played a part in that war directly. Kil'jaeden could've totally gone "those were some other demons" and Kael'thas would've had no evidence to argue.
    You do realize that Illidan and Kael'thas were allies for some time?
    And Kil'jaeden didn't tell any lies (at least on screen) to Illidan in regards to the Frozen Throne, he literally calls the Lich King "My creation".

    C'mon, Kil'jaeden being the Leader of the Burning Legion wasn't secretive knowledge, as if KJ could just pull a "Uhm, someone else did this!", when Azeroth just recently been subject to a massive demonic invasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Up until 2.4 all blood elves were technically under Kael'thas's command through his Regent Lor'themar. Them being hostile and attackable ingame is purely a game mechanic.
    That may have been the state at launch of TBC, but even the Scryers, the only friendly blood elves on Outland had abandoned Kael'thas before we even got to Hellfire Peninsula.

    As said, the entire situation is murky at best.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-05-22 at 01:26 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Only because Illidan is pushed into the limelight as the main villain, and that is so half-assed that, for one thing we step into Outland because of a Legion attack, not one by Illidan. The Horde crossing the world on its own accord in order to pursue Illidan because he had Fel Orcs in his employ is logistically farcical.
    I had never even considered this. I suppose the Caverns of Time distracted me enough to not pay attention to anything else. To me the Outland was just a place where we went to beat up bad guys, just because. But indeed, putting a bit more thought in this makes it really lame.

    Lots of wasted potential here.

  3. #163
    When you got several people writting storys while sexually abusing other people. You know where the focus was.

    I believe Dragonflight might be a decent reset/starting point.

    Just kill stupid wrathion asap and stop putting leaders sitted agaisnt a wall in some random town.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Remember when it was Ghostcrawler or Metzen who were blamed for everything and people said the game wouldn't be good again until they were gone?
    Exactly this. If danuser leaves, it'll be the next one to blame. I'd say golden, but people already blame her.

  5. #165
    Warhammer 40k has a whole lot more lore to juggle around and the fans don't have this kind of resentment towards the writers. In fact, the 40k books are in high demand. The only thing the 40k fans complain about is technical in nature, scale inconsistencies, authors playing fast and loose with how large cities are or how powerful weapons are. But that's just trivia compared to how Blizzard treats their characters.

  6. #166
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Warhammer 40k has a whole lot more lore to juggle around and the fans don't have this kind of resentment towards the writers. In fact, the 40k books are in high demand. The only thing the 40k fans complain about is technical in nature, scale inconsistencies, authors playing fast and loose with how large cities are or how powerful weapons are. But that's just trivia compared to how Blizzard treats their characters.
    Im not really much into 40k's storyline, but I think 40k is so absurdly large in scale that many stories or battles are just skirmishes in a so much larger conflict that they get away with it

    Hell, one of my friends is still excited about new Horus Heresy books and, to my understanding, that's an event in the past in the franchise's story
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  7. #167
    Yes, though characterising the lore as a patchwork of skirmishes wouldn't be fair. The Horus Heresy is the origin story of the current 40k conflict. It happens in 30k. And it's very much character driven, it's largely inspired by Paradise Lost (Milton 1667). Demi-god like beings with their own motives and quirks warring against each other. There's so much material to work through that there's over 60 novels written on this era alone. Varying quality as one would expect from so many authors writing on the same canon, but the good ones are mind-bending and philosophically deep. And not all of them are necessarily about military conflict either, there's quite a few intimate, smaller stories happening as well.

    Now I'm not saying WoW needs to generate the same quantity of lore as 40k should. That would be excessive and pointless. But unlike 40k, WoW is constantly up against this cosmic ceiling where the universe is at stake. That's never the case in 40k, everything is too big to fail. All the stakes in this universe are personal, the characters are tiny ants trying to navigate this massive meat grinder.

    That's what makes 40k compelling. A giant hostile universe where anything can snuff you out, yet where everything keeps churning on despite these threats. It's not about whether a handful of heroes can save the universe. It's about whether a handful of heroes can save themselves from the universe. That's what a MMO should feel like as well.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Remember when it was Ghostcrawler or Metzen who were blamed for everything and people said the game wouldn't be good again until they were gone?
    Difference is when red shirt guy cornered Metzen he took it like a champ.
    When red shirt guy did the same to Danuser he just dismissed the entire chronicle as just titan's point of view.

    I'll take Metzen and Ghostcrawler over Danuser anytime.

  9. #169
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Remember when it was Ghostcrawler or Metzen who were blamed for everything and people said the game wouldn't be good again until they were gone?
    Yep idiots always need a scapegoat. They just can't grasp that a failure is a team failure, need to blame someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  10. #170
    It's not a team failure. The lead narrative designer carries full responsibility for the quality of the narrative. Not to mention that the underlying quests, the ones that a lead narrative designer is less occupied with, are widely regarded as more enjoyable than the campaign itself.

    The only person who can get this show back on track is the lead narrative designer, and that person is Danuser, he's the person whom people should direct their criticism at.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The Scourge literally summoned Archimonde and helped them at the Battle of Mount Hyjal.
    People have been aware that the Scourge and Legion are in league with each other.

    Nevermind that Kil'jaeden ordered Illidan (again) to destroy the Frozen Throne, so Kael'thas should at this point have put 1 and 1 together and realized that the Legion may be behind the Scourge.

    And that also doesn't even account that Lore books all over Azeroth said the same thing, so it's not like that this was somehow secretive knowledge by the time of TBC.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._the_Lich_King

    Kael'thas recognized Night elves in TFT and greeted them in Darnassian, i think High elves were aware of their (former) home.

    And the Sunwell had been enchanted in a way to avoid detection from Demons, as to not attract them (again), the Runestones in Quel'thalas exist for this reason.

    You do realize that Illidan and Kael'thas were allies for some time?
    And Kil'jaeden didn't tell any lies (at least on screen) to Illidan in regards to the Frozen Throne, he literally calls the Lich King "My creation".

    C'mon, Kil'jaeden being the Leader of the Burning Legion wasn't secretive knowledge, as if KJ could just pull a "Uhm, someone else did this!", when Azeroth just recently been subject to a massive demonic invasion.

    That may have been the state at launch of TBC, but even the Scryers, the only friendly blood elves on Outland had abandoned Kael'thas before we even got to Hellfire Peninsula.

    As said, the entire situation is murky at best.
    Kael wasn't in Dalaran when it was destroyed, he'd already left.

    Knowing there's some guys you're descended from and knowing they fought a war against demons 10k years ago is a different thing. But those were demons summoned by the Dalaran mages using magic recklessly. No way to know if those were even the same groups of demons.

    You do realize that the Lich King betrayed the Legion? That was kinda why Kil'jaeden sent Illidan and his forces after him, right? He could've totally gone "Yeah, I created the Lich King but he went off the rails and attacked your people. I had nothing to do with it, but I'll try to make it up to you."

    Right, forgot the Scryers. By all blood elves I meant the playable ones, the friendly npcs like in Falcon Watch who are pilgriming to get to Kael'thas, and his hostile forces like the ones who dropped the bombs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Im not really much into 40k's storyline, but I think 40k is so absurdly large in scale that many stories or battles are just skirmishes in a so much larger conflict that they get away with it

    Hell, one of my friends is still excited about new Horus Heresy books and, to my understanding, that's an event in the past in the franchise's story
    This. It's hard to get involved in WH40's story when planets with billions get wiped out as a footnote.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Difference is when red shirt guy cornered Metzen he took it like a champ.
    When red shirt guy did the same to Danuser he just dismissed the entire chronicle as just titan's point of view.

    I'll take Metzen and Ghostcrawler over Danuser anytime.
    A'dal "Kill Illidan he's a threat to all the people of Outland.
    Us "Oh hey, A'dal, Illidan had just destroyed the nathrezim's world and was gonna do the same to the eredar's, but we kinda killed him on your orders before he could."
    A'dal "Oops, I didn't know that."
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Kael wasn't in Dalaran when it was destroyed, he'd already left.
    ...he literally used the remains of the Portal created by Kel'thuzad that summoned Archimonde to reach Outland.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Knowing there's some guys you're descended from and knowing they fought a war against demons 10k years ago is a different thing. But those were demons summoned by the Dalaran mages using magic recklessly. No way to know if those were even the same groups of demons.
    ...them being led by the same Demon (Archimonde) would be quite the hint that they're in fact the same group.

    Nevermind, that, again, ingame story book literally say that it was the Legion that invaded.
    Be honest, do you think it's a reasonable story to go that Kil'jaeden *lies* to Kael'thas about the Scourge, to the point where he denies that the Demons that caused the Third war weren't actually Burning Legion demons and that Kael'thas just buys it?
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You do realize that the Lich King betrayed the Legion? That was kinda why Kil'jaeden sent Illidan and his forces after him, right? He could've totally gone "Yeah, I created the Lich King but he went off the rails and attacked your people. I had nothing to do with it, but I'll try to make it up to you."
    Mate, just stop.
    You're grasping at straws.

    The Scourge summoned Archimonde.
    Kael'thas knows this, he knows that Kel'thuzad summoned Archimonde.

    And as a small reminder, that happened after the Scourge wrecked Quel'thalas.

    Like seriously, to turn this lesson in historical revitionism around for one second: Give me one source or even implication which shows that Kil'jaeden lied to Kael'thas about the Scourge and the Legion's Invasion, a.k.a. the Third war.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    A'dal "Kill Illidan he's a threat to all the people of Outland.
    Us "Oh hey, A'dal, Illidan had just destroyed the nathrezim's world and was gonna do the same to the eredar's, but we kinda killed him on your orders before he could."
    A'dal "Oops, I didn't know that."
    Illidan literally kept his plan a secret to anyone but his closest demon hunter followers.
    Even Akama was unaware of his plans, hence he thought that Illidan just went nuts.

    IIRC, Illidan wanted to give the BT even back to Akama after the Legion was finished.

    This entire thing about Illidan wanting to destroy the Legion is a 2016 thing, added with the novel, in TBC it's been stated that the Legion is assaulting Illidan to get revenge for his failure to destroy the Lich King.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-05-23 at 07:30 AM.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    A'dal "Kill Illidan he's a threat to all the people of Outland.
    Us "Oh hey, A'dal, Illidan had just destroyed the nathrezim's world and was gonna do the same to the eredar's, but we kinda killed him on your orders before he could."
    A'dal "Oops, I didn't know that."
    OK? So? Illidan was still a threat to Outland at the time.
    Are you under some impression that all good factions and all bad factions communicate and coordinate perfectly?
    That shit happens in an authentic organic world.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    OK? So? Illidan was still a threat to Outland at the time.
    Are you under some impression that all good factions and all bad factions communicate and coordinate perfectly?
    That shit happens in an authentic organic world.
    Doesn't change that he didn't know who created that portal. He and Archimonde never encountered one another.

    Again, he never met Archimonde. We don't know if Anasterian passed down any specifics about the Legion's leaders down to his people and descendents. Again, knowing your ancestors fought demons and being able to recognize one of their leaders are two very different subjects.

    Kael'thas doesn't know the Scourge summoned Archimonde. He wasn't there when it happened and Archimonde immediately left for Kalimdor, where Kael'thas never was. There's never been a discussion between Kael'thas and Kil'jaeden directly. You're asking to prove a negative.

    Exactly. Both A'dal and by extention us were operating on incomplete information. How does the Legion assaulting Illidan for betraying them change anything? He destroyed Nathreza only shortly before we killed him. They were assaulting Outland for years before then to punish him for failure, then it got personal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    OK? So? Illidan was still a threat to Outland at the time.
    Are you under some impression that all good factions and all bad factions communicate and coordinate perfectly?
    That shit happens in an authentic organic world.
    Destroying a half destroyed world with only a few remnants of sentient life left to permanent destroy the Legion's two most important worlds is a choice most people would make. Up until Archimonde's permadeath in WoD that the single biggest win anyone had ever gotten against the Legion, and it was an irreversible one they couldn't fix.

    Tbh I'm not even sure what point you're trying to argue.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Unlike Wrath, where only the blandness of its take on Arthas and killing Ner'zhul off-screen, along with the bad habit of hero characters introduced with Tirion have aged poorly, while some of its most maligned choices like there always being a Lich King have ended up being for the better and the overall worldbuilding is among the peak of the franchise, TBC has only managed to get worse with age and even setting-wise the main interest has been visual, with virtually all aspects of Draenor lore coming either from WoD or Chronicle.
    Better how? While it gave us Bolvar, which was maybe a step up compared to WotLK's mishandling of Arthas and (especially) Ner'zhul, he was ultimately flushed down the drain. The whole thing was a convoluted mess from the get go (the premise that the Lich King getting smacked with a sword leads to even lowly skeletons breaking free while the Lich King outright dying just whips the Scourge into a frenzy still doesn't check out) and the "even greater threat" part of it ended up being a wet fart dealt with by the B team while the heroes were saving reality from new Satan.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Tbh I'm not even sure what point you're trying to argue.
    I dont know what you're arguing for either.
    You double quoted me and shoved Illidan when I was talking about red shirt guy.

  17. #177
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    How many times do we need the exact same thread open?

    I somehow agree, but c´mon.. we got plenty of posts about this already :d

  18. #178
    The story will not get good until WarCraft setting doesn`t get a soft reboot, and defines itself as medium fantasy world between LOTR and Warhammer and stick with it.
    Oh, and set major events in stone and don`t recontextualise them. If I want high powered fanatasy we have Warhammer, the WarCraft setting was flshed out the most, and felt unique, in WarCraft 3 and Vanilla WoW.

    My opinion anyway.

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