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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsyplenk View Post
    No it's not. You are completely disregarding any sort of quality or preference... Just saying "IT'S NOSTALGIA" because it's older is irrelevant. People prefer the older version because the newer one is dire. Simple.



    And what does that have to do with nostalgia? Not sure how many times I have to repeat myself but people actually prefer and ENJOY the older systems and the game, not everyone likes where WoW has gone and how much it's changed.
    So basically you're disregarding the definition of nostalgia. Cool.

  2. #102
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So basically you're disregarding the definition of nostalgia. Cool.
    Nostalgia is the desire to return to a past state, not actively choosing to live there once you have the option and the rose tint has had time to fade.

    If people genuinely enjoy classic more than retail that's a game preference. Nostalgia right now would be wishing for Wrath, once we have it, choosing to stay is no longer nostalgic.


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  3. #103
    Fluffy Kitten GothamCity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I say reading up guides and possibly making assignments counts as preparation.
    So your metric for hard is... Everyone in the raid walking in blind with absolutely no knowledge of anything in the instance? I mean if that's the bar then he'll MC would be brutal since it's not obvious how to summon Ragnaros lol.

    Basic guide reading has been a thing since the dawn of raiding in MMOs
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  4. #104
    Yes Sunwell is the hardest tier in TBC and probably of the entire Classic VersionS up to now.

    That because 1. Wasnt supposed to be in TBC and then they made 6 boss for hardcore raiders at the time 2. People never really did it because WOTLK was incoming 3. M'uru is still a wall atm.


    But still overall, is pretty easy as raid.


    Kalecgos? Nothing special.

    Brutallus? Have DPS geared.

    Felmyst? Understand how breath works.

    then

    Twins? That is pretty hard healing wise but still

    M'uru? Hardest encounter in SWP and TBC


    KJ? If you did M'uru you literally clap KJ in 10 tries

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    So your metric for hard is... Everyone in the raid walking in blind with absolutely no knowledge of anything in the instance? I mean if that's the bar then he'll MC would be brutal since it's not obvious how to summon Ragnaros lol.

    Basic guide reading has been a thing since the dawn of raiding in MMOs
    I mean, it's still prep, right?

    It's not like PTR testing is the only thing that counts as preparation.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsyplenk View Post
    99% of people play Classic because it's an all round better game lmao. Nobody wants to play dead retail garbage.
    That's why all people do is raidlog in classic and don't touch it outside of that

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    That's why all people do is raidlog in classic and don't touch it outside of that
    Possibly because there isn't much to do unless
    1. You're into PvP
    2. Want to level more alts

    Most people did all of their stuff that is available outside of raiding (Dungeon, Rep Farms, Professions) during the launch weeks / months.
    And by the way, Isle of Quel'danas seems rather lively atm. on basically every populated realm.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Nostalgia is the desire to return to a past state, not actively choosing to live there once you have the option and the rose tint has had time to fade.

    If people genuinely enjoy classic more than retail that's a game preference. Nostalgia right now would be wishing for Wrath, once we have it, choosing to stay is no longer nostalgic.
    Classic servers are meant to give people nostalgic for the old systems a way to experience them again. So since people on Classic servers are wanting to play an older version of the game, that fits the definition of nostalgia. Because they are choosing to live in the past of WoW.

  9. #109
    I am Murloc! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Most people did all of their stuff that is available outside of raiding (Dungeon, Rep Farms, Professions) during the launch weeks / months.
    And by the way, Isle of Quel'danas seems rather lively atm. on basically every populated realm.
    Well, yeah. It's a brand "new" content with a daily zone you can grind for gear. Of course it will have players. I still member doing them back in the days.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Classic servers are meant to give people nostalgic for the old systems a way to experience them again. So since people on Classic servers are wanting to play an older version of the game, that fits the definition of nostalgia. Because they are choosing to live in the past of WoW.
    Strangely enough, so many of these servers have smaller or bigger modifiers. Guess nostalgia wore off quickly for those systems.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-05-23 at 08:03 AM.
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  10. #110
    Are people confusing difficulty with high number tuning again?
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  11. #111
    I am Murloc! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Are people confusing difficulty with high number tuning again?
    One does not exclude the other. High tuning means you have to perform better to kill the boss.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    One does not exclude the other. High tuning means you have to perform better to kill the boss.
    It can yes. The mechanics for Sunwell arent all that skill oriented, they're fairly simple. What walls people is just the high numbers requiring higher gear.

    Sunwell as a raid is best known for two things. 1. Being buggy as hell (at first). and 2. Very high tuning. The main way people are "skilling" the raid is by stacking the classes with the biggest numbers. If it was more skill oriented that wouldn't be needed.

    and yes while I do understand thats roughly how MMO work, many MMO do have raids with both. Bosses that require a certain level of technical skill and awarness, as well as a certain gear level. Sunwell is far more slanted in the later direction.
    Last edited by Toppy; 2022-05-23 at 08:30 AM.
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    They did not raid +15 hrs/day for 2-3 weeks everyday.
    It was not a job for them back then.
    Over 1k guilds cleared SWP in the first week. You can't compare it to mythic retail raids, if even you can compare to normal/heroic raids on retail.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Over 1k guilds cleared SWP in the first week. You can't compare it to mythic retail raids, if even you can compare to normal/heroic raids on retail.
    To be fair to Sunwell it was designed to be hard for guilds in 2007 and it was. In actual TBC less than 300 guilds cleared it before 3.0.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    It can apparently last almost 15 years, cause that's how long private classic servers existed.

    - - - Updated - - -




    Of course it's nostalgia. I enjoy Classic, but it's only because of the memories. Objectively, this game is FAR worse than later expansion of the game. The game peaked in around WoD/Legion, and has become worse in BFA/SL tho, but still modern WoW is better no matter how you look at it.

    Compare PvP as an example, right now it's still unbalanced and quite clunky. I play Hunter, and compared to retail Hunter, it's just awful. Movement, CC, damage abilitis, ALL are improved in Retail and it's so much more smooth and polished today.

    The game has (naturally) evolved and become better. But people like Classic cause it's the game they grow up with. I have super fond memories of going to high school during the original TBC and exploring new zones and raids with my classmates. I remember being poor, and a friend gave me some gold in return for me helping him with some homework. Those were the days, I had the time of my life, and considering I played a lot of TBC during that time, ofc I remember TBC fondly. Nostalgia is powerful. But the fact remain that TBC is possibly the WORST of the expansions if you start to analyze it.

    Subjectively Classic is awesome, regardless what I wrote, I LOVE Classic to death, but it's because of nostalgia and memories.
    Objectively Classic tho, as a game, compared to the later expansion, is pure GARBAGE. Garbage I love, that we all love.
    I listen to music from 20+ years ago because it's good - not because I am nostalgic. I play games from the 90's and early 2000s because they are (to some extend objectively!) still incredibly good and fun to play. I play CTBC because it is more fun to me than retail. I cleared retail TBC back in the day and have very fond memories of that, yes, but nostalgia wouldn't overcome the lack of people I played with back then because the were an integral part of the expirience - specifically when you hardcore progressed. For me, it's the stupid system-based gameplay in retail. The lack of "true" rewards. Legendaries beeing handed out left and right and also the general mentality of the playerbase, that sadly also invades classic and devalues any reward people could earn (carrys, boosts, etc). All these things keep me from returning to retail.

  16. #116
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Classic servers are meant to give people nostalgic for the old systems a way to experience them again. So since people on Classic servers are wanting to play an older version of the game, that fits the definition of nostalgia. Because they are choosing to live in the past of WoW.
    But choosing to play it because you actively prefer it to retail isn't nostalgia. It's not the fact it's an old version of the game that makes it better, people prefer the balance, tuning and systems compared to the current game.

    If you're playing it to get some feeling from 15 years ago sure, but if you prefer it on a technical level, it aint nostalgia.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    One does not exclude the other. High tuning means you have to perform better to kill the boss.
    High tuning actually means most of the work is done outside of the raid itself and tinkering to get an optimum performance set up. The mechanics for players to engage with are still exceptionally simple, just the output is demanding. There's little you can do as a player to affect things in the actual engagement, you can't press shadowbolt any harder.

    In game difficulty in Sunwell is surprisingly low. There's not a lot you can really fuck up on. It's just following a script.


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  17. #117
    I am Murloc! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    High tuning actually means most of the work is done outside of the raid itself and tinkering to get an optimum performance set up. The mechanics for players to engage with are still exceptionally simple, just the output is demanding. There's little you can do as a player to affect things in the actual engagement, you can't press shadowbolt any harder.

    In game difficulty in Sunwell is surprisingly low. There's not a lot you can really fuck up on. It's just following a script.
    Was thinking more about Highmaul Butcher. Basically stand still and DPS fight where Mythic mechanics were completely cheesed and the main difficulty was squeezing that little extra DPS each pull and dance during enrage. Obviously fights like this are especially susceptible to being out-geared, but during first weeks that guy was a real roadblock.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  18. #118
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stornholio View Post
    I listen to music from 20+ years ago because it's good - not because I am nostalgic. I play games from the 90's and early 2000s because they are (to some extend objectively!) still incredibly good and fun to play. I play CTBC because it is more fun to me than retail. I cleared retail TBC back in the day and have very fond memories of that, yes, but nostalgia wouldn't overcome the lack of people I played with back then because the were an integral part of the expirience - specifically when you hardcore progressed. For me, it's the stupid system-based gameplay in retail. The lack of "true" rewards. Legendaries beeing handed out left and right and also the general mentality of the playerbase, that sadly also invades classic and devalues any reward people could earn (carrys, boosts, etc). All these things keep me from returning to retail.

    I get that SOME things from the past are still good, especially music, but video games doesn't age like music does.

    I am not sure if you play Zelda, but look at Ocarina of Time. Ocarina of Time was and is by many considered one of the best games of all times, and I agree when it came out it was GODLIKE and blew any other games out of the water. But having said that, after playing Breath of the Wild, and experiencing updated gameplay and controls, going back to Ocarina of Time last year, that game has NOT aged well. Compared to Breath of the Wild TODAY, Ocarina of Time is GARBAGE, nearly unplayable in comparison.

    It was great back in 1998 but is trash today, and most people don't realize this, they have fond memories, which is fine, I regret replaying it as it ruined my memories, but the point is, video games get better and better every year. Maybe not in the story telling, that is something that is timeless, but when it comes to controls and gameplay it ALWAYS improves. And graphics ofc, but I never valued graphics much personally. So yeah, nostalgia is a powerful thing. TBC was great in 2007, but is garbage right now, although, due to memories, we still enjoy it, like some people might still enjoy Ocarina of Time, although, objectively, it's not even 10% as good as Breath of the Wild is.

    Same thing goes outside of pop-culture as well. It becomes hard to value old vs new. "Old people" talk about Rod Laver in Tennis as one of the greatest of all time, cause they saw him kick as in the 60s, but put him when he was in his prime, in a timemachine, and have a 25-30 year old Rod Laver compete TODAY, and he would not even be a top 10 000 player, yet alone get a SINGLE point vs like Djokovic or Nadal. It's basically the same phenomenon in sports, nostalgia for the old days, but that doesn't mean it age well.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    To be fair to Sunwell it was designed to be hard for guilds in 2007 and it was. In actual TBC less than 300 guilds cleared it before 3.0.
    Part of that was that many were crushed by the raid being so incredibly buggy for so long that some just quit.

    It was one of WoW's most rushed raids. Buggy to the point of broken, a complete lack in variety in regards to gear models (if I rememberright, first raid tier to just be four sets) with said sets being notably lower resolution than other sets. Lots of recycled material from other parts of TBC. People remember the PvE content OUTSIDE the raid more than the raid itself which was mostly a boring, buggy, slog with an end that required you to read a manga to understand.
    Last edited by Toppy; 2022-05-23 at 06:45 PM.
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  20. #120
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Was thinking more about Highmaul Butcher. Basically stand still and DPS fight where Mythic mechanics were completely cheesed and the main difficulty was squeezing that little extra DPS each pull and dance during enrage. Obviously fights like this are especially susceptible to being out-geared, but during first weeks that guy was a real roadblock.
    Ah, I had M'uru in mind.


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