Its official -- Sunwell Plateau is the real deal.

[Kralljin]

Can't say I follow the mentality that overpowering fights via gear, potions, enchants, and so on is fine, but using world buffs is somehow wrong.

It's less about wrong but rather to simply have the option to overpower a fight with sheer numbers.
If you went up to 4HM with World buffs, it was entirely possible to kill the first two Horsemen before resetting stacks, which is basically ensures a kill.

They stated they would never make anything as hard as Sunwell again. True, you have more mechanics as things go along, but those are not nearly so tightly tuned as people like to pretend.

Some are, some aren't.

Modern Day Mythic encounters are frankly infamous for having mechanics where one fuckup either results in a straight up wipe or leaves you without enough dps to finish the dps race.

For example, it's always ignored that a great deal of those mechanics exist solely to force players to use up spells like Divine Shield, Turtle Aspect, and so on. "Run into the Owie Beam, pop immunity" is a response to ridiculous player power. In most cases, it becomes trivial with knowledge and positioning. This is just one example of the supposed difficulty brought on by mechanics being overstated.

That is a factor but not every encounter features those mechanics.
Reducing Modern Day encounters however to these mechanics is very disengenous considering they have far more abilities than that.

To give a more recent example, neither Mythic Jaina nor Mythic Azshara involved soaking anything with an immunity, despite this those encounters were still a serious challenge.

You say it got harder, I say the challenge simply shifted in another direction.

That's where i plain disagree.

When you look at a modern day Mythic encounter, especially one of the last ones, you look at something that takes people who literally play this game for a living over 300 attempts.
This number doesn't necessarily decrease as more guilds kill the boss and strats become more formalized, despite nerfs.

Friend of mine used to raid in a casual guild (well, by Mythic raiding standards) during BfA, took them over 600 attempts to kill Mythic Jaina over the course of ~3 months.

The mechanical complexity of modern day Mythic encounters simply dwarves what you have in Classic, even if some Classic mechanics are sometimes tuned to be more unforgiving, the sheer number of mechanics and their complexity dwarves this in comparison.

If you really believe that everyone just struggles in a new tier because it's fresh, you're frankly just deluding yourself, most players frankly fail on these because they cannot play these mechanics properly or consistently.

Classic is easier in comparison to 2005 because the overall skill level of the playerbase has improved, but that increase will not allow for every relaunch to be an easymode.
I reitererate, more people will clear it, but you're not going to see 80% of players clearing Lei Shen heroic, because that encounter would be too much to handle for the average player to this day.

[Mendzia]

oh no. they dared to release the last 3 bosses of the last Raid of Shadowlands by 1 Week. QUICK GUYS RETAIL IS TIME GATED

Yeah... because only raids on retail are timegated...

[cparle87]

Show me SINGLE BoE-raid item that is BiS in Sunwell.
Retail WF requires ALL players having these as it is not possible to progress.



They did not raid +15 hrs/day for 2-3 weeks everyday.
It was not a job for them back then.



I do not need to rememeber him.
I can do it soon with my guild as he is at the same state.
There is nothing unbalanced here but rather highly tuned as many guilds killed him already.



Sunwell was nerfed once (or twice if you count WotLK prepatch as another one).



If there were any broken addons... they were banned almost immedietely.
I recall more of these in rather later states of WoW like WotLKs AVR or this thing from Archimonde in WoD.
I do not remember single 'stronger then and could automate way more than now' addon in TBC.
Show me please nihilum or vodka team that were only here programming WA's - i'll wait...



Yeah... because retail raids are totally not timegated...



Which ones?



Almost all WF raiders hated the longevity of WF Sepulcher sooo much.



???

You didn't say BiS, nice goalpost moving.

You don't know what hours they raided, stop talking out your ass.

M'uru was a raid destroyer and wall up until he was nerfed.

Are you looking at blanket raid nerfs, or individual boss nerfs?

We're not talking about stuff like Archimonde's range finder. We're talking about things like addons that would analyze the target you moused over, pick the best downranked heal spell to use, pick the right dispel to use, etc without you even needing to click. Those kinds of insane things.

There was a literal wall where you killed a boss, killed trash, and a literal wall kept you from progressing for a couple weeks. Raid came out March 25. You had 3 bosses you could fight. First gate didn't open, allowing one more boss until April 8. Second gate, again unlocking just one more boss, was not until April 29. And the final boss was not available until May 20th. To break it down For the first two weeks you could only fight three bosses. Week three of raid (aka second week of mythic progression) you got boss number four. Week five of raid got you boss number five. And you couldn't even look at the final boss until week 8 of the raid, let alone begin progression. Did the entire SotFO mythic race even last 8 weeks?

To give you a viable comparison. You can go Guardian and the whole Desaunge thru Lihivum section right away. But have to wait for week 3 of the raid being out to do the Articier/Skolex/Halondrus area. Then week 5 of raid to fight Anduin thru the constellar guy. And couldn't even fight Jailer until week 8 of the raid being out. It honestly baffles me that people scream at modern Blizz for timegating when nothing they've ever done has matched up to what supposed peak Blizz did with things like SWP and ICC which used an identical system. Again, did the WF race even last 8 weeks?

And even without the timegating, nothing in SWP is even in the top 50 of bosses that took the longest to beat, you can google it.

[hzjf]

Yeah... because only raids on retail are timegated...

Yeah... because retail raids are totally not timegated...

please stop rolling your eyes because you seem to have brain damage

[Azsune]

I am in a casual speed running guild. I call it casual because we do not do PTR and raid log. We got 1hr 7min BT runs in the last phase. For Sunwell about half our raid did PTR with pugs and such but not as a guild together. We one shot the first 4 bosses and wiped a bit to twins till we did the balcony strategy. I thought it would be more challenging as my guild back in the day didn't even want to step inside for trash farming.

Muru was the first one where it took us a while to get. Our second clear we also spent more time on him than any other boss.

Kil'jaeden we tried video strategy's on and the spreading method was hurting our DPS and Healers with to much running or not in range. We started to group up more tightly and found it to make the fight a joke.

This week we got a 2h 49m clear. We are running with 7 healers which to me feels like to much for pretty much every fight but Muru. Our Prot Paladin puts on holy gear for Brutalis and we are all fighting for over healing. I think we could drop a healer and only Muru we might have issues.

[Mendzia]

You didn't say BiS, nice goalpost moving.

There is no such thing on retails as BiS so how could i say this?
WF raiders were using gold to buy just higher ilvl in general.

You don't know what hours they raided, stop talking out your ass.

I know.
You can find many interviews with raiders from that time.
Use google.

M'uru was a raid destroyer and wall up until he was nerfed.

Did not say he wasn't.
Still perfectly balanced for best guild back then... and easy enough for many guild now.

Are you looking at blanket raid nerfs, or individual boss nerfs?

Everything.

We're not talking about stuff like Archimonde's range finder.

Why not?
Because this happened in modern WoW?
Still no answer about WA teams too...

We're talking about things like addons that would analyze the target you moused over, pick the best downranked heal spell to use, pick the right dispel to use, etc without you even needing to click. Those kinds of insane things.

Heppened in Vanilla - yes.
No longer a thing in TBC as all healing spells were normalized and would not benefit from it.

There was a literal wall where you killed a boss, killed trash, and a literal wall kept you from progressing for a couple weeks. Raid came out March 25. You had 3 bosses you could fight. First gate didn't open, allowing one more boss until April 8. Second gate, again unlocking just one more boss, was not until April 29. And the final boss was not available until May 20th. To break it down For the first two weeks you could only fight three bosses. Week three of raid (aka second week of mythic progression) you got boss number four. Week five of raid got you boss number five. And you couldn't even look at the final boss until week 8 of the raid, let alone begin progression. Did the entire SotFO mythic race even last 8 weeks?

To give you a viable comparison. You can go Guardian and the whole Desaunge thru Lihivum section right away. But have to wait for week 3 of the raid being out to do the Articier/Skolex/Halondrus area. Then week 5 of raid to fight Anduin thru the constellar guy. And couldn't even fight Jailer until week 8 of the raid being out. It honestly baffles me that people scream at modern Blizz for timegating when nothing they've ever done has matched up to what supposed peak Blizz did with things like SWP and ICC which used an identical system. Again, did the WF race even last 8 weeks?

I think this is the reason why it is no longer here in Classic...
Still happening in retail... and not only in raids...

And even without the timegating, nothing in SWP is even in the top 50 of bosses that took the longest to beat, you can google it.

Where did i say it did?
Once again i will repeat: Vanilla - TBC - WotLK raids are extremely easy for organised, geared raids with consumes.
All of your talk started from comparing oranges with apples.

please stop rolling your eyes because you seem to have brain damage

Thanks for your 'i have notting to say so i will offend him' argument...
I will also keep using this emote as i very like it.

[tomten]

Show me SINGLE BoE-raid item that is BiS in Sunwell.
Retail WF requires ALL players having these as it is not possible to progress.



They did not raid +15 hrs/day for 2-3 weeks everyday.
It was not a job for them back then.



I do not need to rememeber him.
I can do it soon with my guild as he is at the same state.
There is nothing unbalanced here but rather highly tuned as many guilds killed him already.



Sunwell was nerfed once (or twice if you count WotLK prepatch as another one).



If there were any broken addons... they were banned almost immedietely.
I recall more of these in rather later states of WoW like WotLKs AVR or this thing from Archimonde in WoD.
I do not remember single 'stronger then and could automate way more than now' addon in TBC.
Show me please nihilum or vodka team that were only here programming WA's - i'll wait...



Yeah... because retail raids are totally not timegated...



Which ones?



Almost all WF raiders hated the longevity of WF Sepulcher sooo much.



???

All BOE's were not BIS either and they were not required and you can progress just fine without them...
Nobody raided 15 hours per day, at best? It was average 8 hour days with breaks...
M'uru is nerfed so its not the same state, no and you won't experience it the same.
What can be "waaay more automated now"? Gives some examples.
One tier is released 1 week later and its timegated?

It's obvious it matters very much to you that SWP is "hard" but it never was and never will be and you will also never experience it as it was...

[Kralljin]

M'uru is nerfed so its not the same state, no and you won't experience it the same.

Besides a nerf that removed the pushback from some damage auras, M'uru is pre nerf.
M'uru was nerfed once, by reducing the health of humanoid adds and M'uru / Entropius itself.

If T5 was anything to go by, that fix will be applied to live servers in like 2 months for so.

[Mendzia]

All BOE's were not BIS either and they were not required and you can progress just fine without them...

Haha... yeah.
WF guilds just like to throw +50k $$ away for them.
Makes total sense.

Nobody raided 15 hours per day, at best? It was average 8 hour days with breaks...

I am confused here.
Should this reply to me or the other guy i am arguing?
That is literally what i said to him.

M'uru is nerfed so its not the same state, no and you won't experience it the same.

Pushback removal + no OP drums =/= nerf.
Meanwhile on retail every single week mythic raid is being nerfed.

What can be "waaay more automated now"? Gives some examples.

Again this question is probably not to me?...

One tier is released 1 week later and its timegated?

What are you talking about?
Literally every single raid tier since like 3-4 xpacks got their release dates not at the same day of X patch?
They are released later.
Additionally yes - in this raid 1 part was even pushed further away in time.

It's obvious it matters very much to you that SWP is "hard" but it never was and never will be and you will also never experience it as it was...

Stop putting words in my mouth.
Never said it is hard.
Literally last my posts i said this:
'Once again i will repeat: Vanilla - TBC - WotLK raids are extremely easy for organised, geared raids with consumes.'
This tier is biggest step up in Classic difficulty for sure tho.

[cparle87]

There is no such thing on retails as BiS so how could i say this?
WF raiders were using gold to buy just higher ilvl in general.



I know.
You can find many interviews with raiders from that time.
Use google.



Did not say he wasn't.
Still perfectly balanced for best guild back then... and easy enough for many guild now.



Everything.



Why not?
Because this happened in modern WoW?
Still no answer about WA teams too...



Heppened in Vanilla - yes.
No longer a thing in TBC as all healing spells were normalized and would not benefit from it.



I think this is the reason why it is no longer here in Classic...
Still happening in retail... and not only in raids...



Where did i say it did?
Once again i will repeat: Vanilla - TBC - WotLK raids are extremely easy for organised, geared raids with consumes.
All of your talk started from comparing oranges with apples.



Thanks for your 'i have notting to say so i will offend him' argument...
I will also keep using this emote as i very like it.

Do you deliberately break the posts up to make them harder to read to reduce the likelihood someone will bother to repond to you?

Someone, don't care who, talked about spending tons of gold on BoEs. I said there were BoEs in Sunwell, too. YOU'RE the only one talking about BoEs being BiS.

M'uru alone two had two nerfs, the big one originally and then the blanket one when the prepatch came out that covered the whole raid.

We're not talking about Archimonde's range finder because even before it was made and even after it was broken a simple /range could replace it. What exists that replaces completely automizing healing and dispelling?

Downranking was a thing until Cata. Hell, google TBC downranking and the first hit will be a downranking calculator for TBCC.

If your only point was to argue that timegating is still a thing in retail I think you're wasting your time typing. My point, which you seem to be pointedly ignoring, is that timegating was much worse in the past. In this case the WF race for the most recent raid had been over for weeks before the last boss of SWP was even available?

If Sunwell was anywhere near as hard as you argue it would at least have some boss on the longest unkilled list, considering it counts the time elapsed from when the previous boss was killed to when a new one is. If tacking on 14 free days doesn't even get it on the top 50 can you call it hard? It's like getting a 14 handicap in golf and still not making the top 50.

And I have to agree with JKQ. Your combination of editing the messages, the emotes, and your ad hominem attacks clearly show you are not interesting in honest discussion, you're just looking to get in the last gotcha word in by hoping everyone else will be too frustrated to repond to you.

- - - Updated - - -

Can't say I follow the mentality that overpowering fights via gear, potions, enchants, and so on is fine, but using world buffs is somehow wrong.

Didn't they really, and I mean REALLY, cut down on the kinds of consumables and world buffs you could stack in 2.1? And isn't TBCC based on post 2.1 from the beginning?

I think part of the difficulty of SWP were the gates. Even if you were good enough to down the fourth boss you couldn't even try until I think the third week of the raid. There could be a boss you could totally stomp and get some nice loots on the other side, but it's locked away for another 2-4 weeks and there's nothing you can do.

Feels kinda like it would if they made raid lockouts account bound? Did the first three bosses? You literally can't do more until next week, and there might not even be anything new you can progress to, just your farm bosses.

[Tonkaden]

Calling it hard is a joke, considering 99% of the people on classic atm are the ones who could not handle retail raid difficulty so they swapped to an easier version.

These types of posts are so laughable. People switched from retail because retail is hammered dog shit lol. It had nothing to do with not being able to clear raid content. You arent good enough to clear mythic without nerfs either which is the .01% either. Retail has been a laughing stock for years and will continue to be so.

[Kralljin]

Downranking was a thing until Cata. Hell, google TBC downranking and the first hit will be a downranking calculator for TBCC.

Doesn't change the fact that Blizzard broke those addons, afaik, in Vanilla already.

Also downranking died in Wotlk, in Wotlk every spellrank had the same mana cost except it did less damage / healed less.

Didn't they really, and I mean REALLY, cut down on the kinds of consumables and world buffs you could stack in 2.1? And isn't TBCC based on post 2.1 from the beginning?

Yes but wiping can still be rather expensive, especially with some fights lasting a bit longer.
-Elixirs are still better than Flasks for healers / melee, which have to be popped after every attempt.
-Scrolls are a thing for melees, which also do not persist through death
-pots have a fixed 2min CD, meaning you can pop up multiple pots depending on how the fight goes (and most SWP bosses go somewhere between 4-7min)
-Dark Runes / Demonic Runes are also a thing for caster / healers, which also cost 10-20g per rune.

I think part of the difficulty of SWP were the gates. Even if you were good enough to down the fourth boss you couldn't even try until I think the third week of the raid. There could be a boss you could totally stomp and get some nice loots on the other side, but it's locked away for another 2-4 weeks and there's nothing you can do.

Feels kinda like it would if they made raid lockouts account bound? Did the first three bosses? You literally can't do more until next week, and there might not even be anything new you can progress to, just your farm bosses.

Eh, that's a rather weird way to look at it.

Gating content arguably makes things easier, or rather creates a problem tuning wise.
We had this thing in ICC, where Blizzard timegated anything past Deathbringer for almost a month, then when people were finally able to go past it, Blizzard again staggered each wing for another week.
The issue was that guilds naturally cleared the parts available to them each week, so they got a lot more Normal gear during this time.

That's why everything except the LK, which was tuned around having full heroic gear, fell within the first week to dedicated guilds.

By gating content you make players less powerful, but ironically they are stronger when they face the bosses for the first time if the gated bosses aren't tuned around this timegating.
Tuning them around this timegating however makes them a pain for anyone afterwards because there is this massive jump in difficulty for anyone that hasn't farmed the raid while they were timegated.

Similiar situation with tier sets in Retail, frankly.

But i think the timegating in SWP largely had the purpose of making the race more "even" so that one guild can't just plow through one boss and then suddenly be extremely ahead, the gates basically forced a soft reset of the race with each gate.

I can tell you right now, if SWP had been timegated, Twins / M'uru would be far less of an issue because people would have already collected loads of gear from Kalecgos, Brutallus and Felmyst.

[Mendzia]

Do you deliberately break the posts up to make them harder to read to reduce the likelihood someone will bother to repond to you?

Hmm? No?
I just answer every single paragraph as i do no want to leave anything without anwer.

Someone, don't care who, talked about spending tons of gold on BoEs. I said there were BoEs in Sunwell, too. YOU'RE the only one talking about BoEs being BiS.

Ok then.
Link single BoE from Sunwell.
I'll wait.

M'uru alone two had two nerfs, the big one originally and then the blanket one when the prepatch came out that covered the whole raid.

Yes... This is literally the thing i said in my first post.
I do not see the reason telling me this.

We're not talking about Archimonde's range finder because even before it was made and even after it was broken a simple /range could replace it.

You clearly did not see this addon then, lol.
It literally made whole mythic mechanic (lazers) almost irrelevant.

What exists that replaces completely automizing healing and dispelling?

Nothing?...
It is no longer in the game since Vanilla?

Downranking was a thing until Cata.

Total lie as i will explain why in next paragraph.

Hell, google TBC downranking and the first hit will be a downranking calculator for TBCC.

Yes... i know... i play and actively raid currently in TBC as healer...
Vanila - it could work
TBC - mana spells are normalized and downranking is extremely not befeical as before (and totally gone in Classic)
WotLK - all spell ranks got SAME mana cost

If your only point was to argue that timegating is still a thing in retail I think you're wasting your time typing. My point, which you seem to be pointedly ignoring, is that timegating was much worse in the past. In this case the WF race for the most recent raid had been over for weeks before the last boss of SWP was even available?

Did we have timegating in reputations? No. (in retail - yes)
Did we have timegating in releasing raids? No. (in retail - yes)
Did we have timegating in current X-pack content (like Isle of QD)? No. (in retail - yes)

Which version is much more timegated?

If Sunwell was anywhere near as hard as you argue it would at least have some boss on the longest unkilled list, considering it counts the time elapsed from when the previous boss was killed to when a new one is. If tacking on 14 free days doesn't even get it on the top 50 can you call it hard? It's like getting a 14 handicap in golf and still not making the top 50.

Again you are putting 'Sunwell is hard' to my mouth.
From this time i will completely skip replying to this 'argument'.

And I have to agree with JKQ. Your combination of editing the messages, the emotes, and your ad hominem attacks clearly show you are not interesting in honest discussion, you're just looking to get in the last gotcha word in by hoping everyone else will be too frustrated to repond to you.

That is pretty... ironic as that person is now banned for saying 'you got brain damage' to me, lol.
You rather agree with toxic person than me?
If we want to play 'gotcha' things... please stop using so many spaces after '.'.
It is also so annoying.

[Tonkaden]

Hmm? No?
I just answer every single paragraph as i do no want to leave anything without anwer.



Ok then.
Link single BoE from Sunwell.
I'll wait.

I meeeeean there are BoE patterns that make BIS items..... They are going anywhere from 5k-60k on Mankrik atm.

[Feanoro]

It's less about wrong but rather to simply have the option to overpower a fight with sheer numbers.
If you went up to 4HM with World buffs, it was entirely possible to kill the first two Horsemen before resetting stacks, which is basically ensures a kill.

OK, and? Is it the scale that bothers you? Because if overpowering fights is the problem, then you must have a problem with outgearing it, or using buffs, food/potions, enchants, and so on.

Modern Day Mythic encounters are frankly infamous for having mechanics where one fuckup either results in a straight up wipe or leaves you without enough dps to finish the dps race.

Yep, they're called FU mechanics, I suspect largely designed to draw out play time. In several cases, like say Mythic Archie, you could effectively negate them with a WeakAura.

Reducing Modern Day encounters however to these mechanics is very disengenous considering they have far more abilities than that.

Hence me saying "For example". I didn't state anything like "all mechanics are for immunities".

Attempt count is a very poor metric for your point, considering the original kills in classic were often well above 300. I would not use it to argue either side.

If you really believe that everyone just struggles in a new tier because it's fresh, you're frankly just deluding yourself, most players frankly fail on these because they cannot play these mechanics properly or consistently.

Since you misunderstood my example, I think you don't quite follow my point either. Mechanics are an arms race against class design and the tools and organization players have. You can see this when you get an expansion prepatch that implements new player designs and talents. Often, existing content becomes far easier due to the new powers.

I reitererate, more people will clear it, but you're not going to see 80% of players clearing Lei Shen heroic, because that encounter would be too much to handle for the average player to this day.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[cparle87]

Eh, that's a rather weird way to look at it.

Gating content arguably makes things easier, or rather creates a problem tuning wise.
We had this thing in ICC, where Blizzard timegated anything past Deathbringer for almost a month, then when people were finally able to go past it, Blizzard again staggered each wing for another week.
The issue was that guilds naturally cleared the parts available to them each week, so they got a lot more Normal gear during this time.

That's why everything except the LK, which was tuned around having full heroic gear, fell within the first week to dedicated guilds.

By gating content you make players less powerful, but ironically they are stronger when they face the bosses for the first time if the gated bosses aren't tuned around this timegating.
Tuning them around this timegating however makes them a pain for anyone afterwards because there is this massive jump in difficulty for anyone that hasn't farmed the raid while they were timegated.

Similiar situation with tier sets in Retail, frankly.

But i think the timegating in SWP largely had the purpose of making the race more "even" so that one guild can't just plow through one boss and then suddenly be extremely ahead, the gates basically forced a soft reset of the race with each gate.

I can tell you right now, if SWP had been timegated, Twins / M'uru would be far less of an issue because people would have already collected loads of gear from Kalecgos, Brutallus and Felmyst.

I knew they'd broken those addons before we ever got to Sunwell. I was trying to state a point that addons used to be able to automate a lot more for us than even the most advanced WA today. Take the Among Us WA. Back in vanilla it might've been able to read the hidden buff put on the two people and immediately put raid markers and a warning of who it was the instant it happened.

My L for the downranking. I remembered 4.0 was when they got rid of the ranks. I remembered when they made it so you couldn't put a max level MotW on a level 2 and make him low level god.

Did not know elixirs were better than flasks. I knew before 1.6 you could have multiple flasks on you. Forgot about scrolls and runes. I knew they'd cut down a lot from vanilla, but still a lot apparently.

That's the thing, boss. Sunwell Plateau WAS timegated. ICC was the second time they did solid walls preventing you from progressing until time passed. Remember Agamath, the First Gate; Rohendor, the Second Gate; and Archonisus, the Final Gate?

You had three bosses (dragon, pit lord, skele dragon) on release. Two weeks after launch you got Twins. Five weeks after launch you got M'uru. And it wasn't until eight weeks after launch that you could even attempt Kil'jaeden, who was downed in 5 days after he was finally available.

I like that you mention the jump if you weren't farming all the available bosses and then moved to a new one.

We didn't get Twins until week three, so guilds had 2 weeks of farming first three. Then you had 5 weeks of farming up to Twins before M'uru. And if you were gigachad you had 8 weeks of farming up to M'uru before you got Kil'jaeden.

GG, nice talk, totally for reals. =-)

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm? No?
I just answer every single paragraph as i do no want to leave anything without anwer.



Ok then.
Link single BoE from Sunwell.
I'll wait.



Yes... This is literally the thing i said in my first post.
I do not see the reason telling me this.



You clearly did not see this addon then, lol.
It literally made whole mythic mechanic (lazers) almost irrelevant.



Nothing?...
It is no longer in the game since Vanilla?



Total lie as i will explain why in next paragraph.



Yes... i know... i play and actively raid currently in TBC as healer...
Vanila - it could work
TBC - mana spells are normalized and downranking is extremely not befeical as before (and totally gone in Classic)
WotLK - all spell ranks got SAME mana cost



Did we have timegating in reputations? No. (in retail - yes)
Did we have timegating in releasing raids? No. (in retail - yes)
Did we have timegating in current X-pack content (like Isle of QD)? No. (in retail - yes)

Which version is much more timegated?



Again you are putting 'Sunwell is hard' to my mouth.
From this time i will completely skip replying to this 'argument'.



That is pretty... ironic as that person is now banned for saying 'you got brain damage' to me, lol.
You rather agree with toxic person than me?
If we want to play 'gotcha' things... please stop using so many spaces after '.'.
It is also so annoying.

Makes a lot of scrolling up and down. Apologies.

Did you forget how every crafting prof had a butt ton of patterns dropping from Sunwell trash making Sunwell level gear? My LW has like 12 patterns just from there.

But it didn't automate them for you, which is the point I'm trying to make. Vanilla add-ons could automate far more than they're allowed to now. A vanilla Dreads WA could probably spot the hidden addon on the two targets, put raid frames on them, do a raid warning, and begin your rotation agains them on their own.

If downranking doesn't matter why have a calculator?

Did we have timegating in reputations. Yes. We could only do 10 dailies per day until 2.4 and in the case of Netherwing new ones cropped up at higher rep levels meaning your rep gain actually increased as you went up but you'd still have to choose who you got rep with.

Not sure what you mean by timegating in releasing raids.

Did we have timegating in current xpac content? Yes. The entire server had to turn in thousands upon thousands of quests to develop the island, unlock new areas with new vendors and dailies, and finally get the zone buff. Great for big servers, terrible for smaller ones. At least your ZM progress and unlocking its goodies aren't dependent on your server.

I'd argue they're about the same, since your little no/yes thing is something I disagree with.

This is you at the beginning of our discussion.
"with content made for 0.1% retail playerbase that required several thousand of dollars equivalent of gold in BoE items, multiple +15hrs raid days, no PTRs, extremely unbalanced/bugged, and after that nerfed multiple times, people having programists to make weak auras totally avoiding many mechanics after time and many more"
How by any stretch of the imagination is this NOT you saying you think Sunwell is hard?

Jerkass has a point is a trope for a reason. Funny read on tvtropes if you don't mind your life being consumed. Him being banned doesn't invalidate his argument, nor does it diminish me agreeing with him. Also sorry you seem to have a problem with proper double spacing in sentences. I hadn't heard the memo.

[ClassicPeon]

SWP is definitely a step up. Possibly on par with ulduar or somewhere in between ulduar and ulduar hardmode.

ToTC and icc hc will be another step up.

Still not anywhere near todays hc mode.

[Hctaz]

Calling it hard is a joke, considering 99% of the people on classic atm are the ones who could not handle retail raid difficulty so they swapped to an easier version.

???
What kind of statistic is that exactly? 99% of the people playing Classic are specifically people who decided that retail raiding was too hard as their only reason for swapping?

I think most people playing Classic just prefer the old game to the new version LOL

[xuros]

Our raid leader replaced 80% of the raid roster so we could down bosses with certain comps like 9 warlocks for Muru or 8 melee for KJ.

For my guild its the hunters that are the big pumpers so far. Our warlocks keep up for the first 50% or so of the bosses health but fall behind towards the end of the fights. We have everything cleared up to KJ this week. Had people out for work last week so only got up to the twins.

[Kralljin]

OK, and? Is it the scale that bothers you? Because if overpowering fights is the problem, then you must have a problem with outgearing it, or using buffs, food/potions, enchants, and so on.

If you're acting this obtuse to not see the difference between consumables and world buffs, then i think we need not discuss this any further.

Yep, they're called FU mechanics, I suspect largely designed to draw out play time. In several cases, like say Mythic Archie, you could effectively negate them with a WeakAura.

Okay, now you've lost me.

A mechanic that by the very place it occurs only affects a sliver of the playerbase is designed to draw out play time...
...and in the same sentence admit that they're being negated by a weakaura, which thus completely negates the entire thing about "drawing out play time".

I knew they'd broken those addons before we ever got to Sunwell. I was trying to state a point that addons used to be able to automate a lot more for us than even the most advanced WA today. Take the Among Us WA. Back in vanilla it might've been able to read the hidden buff put on the two people and immediately put raid markers and a warning of who it was the instant it happened.

Okay, now what?

What is this argument? Some sort of theoretical argument "If we had the power of addons today AND the missing restrictions of Vanilla everything would be much easier!".
It's just silly, because if addons massively interfered with the difficulty if not only a specific mechanic but basically any mechanic, Blizzard broke addons relatively quickly (example: AVR).

These addons weren't available when SWP launched back in 08, those aren't available now, what the fuck is your point?

GG, nice talk, totally for reals. =-)

And this time would've resulted in SWP being even easier, that's just the way it is.

Your argument about timegating making SWP harder is just bullcrap unless the sole metric you're using is the real time it takes to clear the place, which is a god awful metric to measure difficulty.
Timegating makes bosses easier if they're not tuned around because it gives players more time to collect gear, it's really simple.