1. #1
    Scarab Lord KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Odyn and the Dragon Aspects

    It is well documented that Odyn was the only Keeper that was against empowering Alexstrasza, Ysera, Nozdormu, Malygos and Neltharion into the Dragon Aspects.


    He was so against it that he forbid the other Keepers to do it. They went against him and did it anyway. In protest, he took a chunk out of Ulduar (which became the Halls of Valor) ran away from Azeroth and effectively pulled the Thanos quote, "Fine... I'll do it myself" by creating the titan-forged army of the Valarjar. He relinquished the title of "Prime Designate" following this.


    Now, so much has happened to the planet of Azeroth due to... problems... the Dragon Aspects have caused directly or indirectly. Most notably (in my opinion) or the issues with Neltharion becoming Deathwing (and the slew of conflict & strife that followed)... and Nozdormu, with potentially the Infinite Dragonflight coming into play in the new expansion and his potential transformation into Murozond.


    You could also throw in Malygos and his war against mortals using magic, but that was mostly a Deathwing issue as noted above.


    Now, back to Odyn. His prime reason to begin with against creating the Dragon Aspects was that "only titan-forged" can be trusted to protect Azeroth. As we have seen with the Warcraft universe's history, both the titan-forged and the Dragon Aspects have had their "stutter steps" in the defense of Azeroth, but the Aspects have had bigger failings.


    So, my questions: do you believe Odyn still has negative feelings towards the Dragon Aspects? Do you think he will be opposed to them seemingly trying to "reclaim their place as protectors of Azeroth" or even try to prevent it altogether?
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2022-05-18 at 12:25 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by KNTRPRTS View Post
    So, my questions: do you believe Odyn still has negative feelings towards the Dragon Aspects? Do you think he will be opposed to them seemingly trying to "reclaim their place as protectors of Azeroth" or even try to prevent it altogether?
    I mean the only answer to this is 'only if Blizzard feels like telling that story'.

    Shadowlands was like the worst offender of missed opportunities. Anything moving forward we can only hope they remember their own characters and lore.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-18 at 12:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #3
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNTRPRTS View Post
    So, my questions: do you believe Odyn still has negative feelings towards the Dragon Aspects? Do you think he will be opposed to them seemingly trying to "reclaim their place as protectors of Azeroth" or even try to prevent it altogether?
    Odyn probably doesn't care that much. I don't believe his reasons for mistrusting the Dragon Aspects was ever actually expanded upon, but I would probably say that his reason for not trusting them is likely out of pride. Consider this what he would have known about them at the time:
    These Proto Aspects worked with Tyr and struggled against Galakrond. During these encounters, Tyr, someone who Odyn respected, lost his hand. In subsequent encounters, the Proto Aspects were unable to meaningfully fight Galakrond (i.e.: they couldn't actually overpower him) and needed to resort to lodging a boulder into his throat (i.e.: an unnecessarily risky plan).

    Odyn, alongside Tyr, was able to defeat Ragnaros in combat with no meaningful injuries, with Odyn's beard being the result of an attack from Ragnaros' that he decided to continue wearing as a trophy. Odyn and Tyr's armies were able to easily (so far as Odyn describes it) subdue the armies of the Firelands. Odyn has a track record of respecting martial prowess and guile, not scheming and contrivance. Assuming Odyn has no context for the threat Galakrond posed, why would he see the Aspects as being needed when their weakness led to his brother Tyr being gravely injured? What had the Proto Aspects done that the Keepers could not if they so chose? In his position, he probably didn't think they could do anything the Keepers couldn't.

    Now, his not wanting the Aspects to be empowered was, in retrospect, probably the correct decision (i.e.: creation of the Dragon Soul, Deathwing, Murozond, Malygos' madness, etc.), but I wouldn't give him credit for that. Unless we're given some logical rationale that he dissented, his reasoning shouldn't be looked on favorably. Additionally, has a track record of bad decisions which he arrived at because of his pride and believing only he was right:
    - His decision to split from Ulduar is probably partially responsible for Loken's descent into madness (no oversight from the Prime Designate) and the Keeper's inability to deal with Yogg-saron breaking free (lack of Leadership), as well as making him vulnerable.
    - His decision to sell his eye to an unknown force of Death, not fully understanding the consequences, was just a bad idea altogether.
    - His decision to forcibly transform Helya into a Valkyr instead of allowing her to just remain as a powerful Watcher was directly responsible for the creation of his most hated enemy.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

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    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Might be involved, who knows.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    I hope they won’t try to kill him off or something because I will be really pissed.
    Behold my new creation!


  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Highlord Hanibuhl's Avatar
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    who is the Prime Designate now actually, since Odyn gave it up and Loken tried to get it... was it Ra? Who's now gone...

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    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Considering the number of Titan-forged individuals who've been corrupted, Odyn probably doesn't have the moral high ground to make judgments on the Dragon Aspects. He was himself imprisoned by a corrupted servant of his own making (Helya), and his position usurped by another corrupted Keeper (Loken) who then enacted a millennia-long campaign of sabotage and betrayal. Not to mention Highkeeper Ra who first succumbed to existential despair and then later was corrupted by N'Zoth. Odyn doesn't seem particularly bright, though; so it's even odds as to whether his own imprisonment and the failure of his Valarjar do actually do anything to safeguard Azeroth would actually give him pause.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Highlord Hanibuhl's Avatar
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    I guess the aspects also rank above the keepers now, below the pantheon, so we shouldn't care about what Odyn thinks/wants.

  9. #9
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Considering the number of Titan-forged individuals who've been corrupted, Odyn probably doesn't have the moral high ground to make judgments on the Dragon Aspects. He was himself imprisoned by a corrupted servant of his own making (Helya), and his position usurped by another corrupted Keeper (Loken) who then enacted a millennia-long campaign of sabotage and betrayal. Not to mention Highkeeper Ra who first succumbed to existential despair and then later was corrupted by N'Zoth. Odyn doesn't seem particularly bright, though; so it's even odds as to whether his own imprisonment and the failure of his Valarjar do actually do anything to safeguard Azeroth would actually give him pause.
    To give a brief defense of Odyn, the Keepers and Watchers we've faced have almost exclusively been murder-hoboed, and those that were able to resist corruption for a longer time than the aspects.
    - Uldaman, we sorta invaded and murder-hoboed our way to knowledge, killing a Titan Keeper as he was awakening and trying to protect the site.
    - The Forge of Origination, we murder-hobo our way to Brann being able to read the Titan Discs we found, killing the Watchers who just wanted to protect the installation.
    - Ulduar, the Keepers were in near direct proximity to Yogg-saron since before the Ordering of Azeroth, and only began to act strangely by the time of Wrath of the Lich King, and even then were able to come back to their senses with a now freed Yogg-saron in the facility.

    Really, the only instances that I can think of the Keepers and Watchers actually falling to corruption are in:
    - Uldir, where experimentation caused the corruption of the facility.
    - Ra falling to corruption in N'zoth's nightmare.
    - Helya, who wasn't so much "corrupt" as much as she was sick of Odyn's shit.

    Most races that have deviated from their intended purpose, like the Mogu and the Vrykul, are probably better described as completely separate races than their Titan-forged ancestors.

    Comparatively, we see:
    - Deathwing fell to corruption due to the burden of his aspect, and dragged the entirety of his flight with him.
    - Nozdormu fell (or will fall, depending on the timeline) to corruption due to the burden of his aspect, and will dragged (or will drag) the entirety of his flight with him.
    - Malygos fell to a madness of his own, using the insight and power granted by his aspect to redirect the power of Azeroth's leylines to the Nexus, which would have caused irreparable harm to Azeroth's world soul (possibly killing it).
    - Ysera dun got herself slapped by Xavius and needed to be purified by Elune.

    The only Aspect that appears to have not been a massive screw up was Alexstraza.

    I think there's a very good argument that Odyn was right in retrospect, but I would agree that Odyn probably didn't want the Aspects to be given power for silly reasons (i.e.: his pride). Hell, he literally created the Halls of Valor by flying away a part of the Ulduar installation because he was mad that the Titan Keepers disagreed with him.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  10. #10
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    To give a brief defense of Odyn, the Keepers and Watchers we've faced have almost exclusively been murder-hoboed, and those that were able to resist corruption for a longer time than the aspects.
    - Uldaman, we sorta invaded and murder-hoboed our way to knowledge, killing a Titan Keeper as he was awakening and trying to protect the site.
    - The Forge of Origination, we murder-hobo our way to Brann being able to read the Titan Discs we found, killing the Watchers who just wanted to protect the installation.
    - Ulduar, the Keepers were in near direct proximity to Yogg-saron since before the Ordering of Azeroth, and only began to act strangely by the time of Wrath of the Lich King, and even then were able to come back to their senses with a now freed Yogg-saron in the facility.

    Really, the only instances that I can think of the Keepers and Watchers actually falling to corruption are in:
    - Uldir, where experimentation caused the corruption of the facility.
    - Ra falling to corruption in N'zoth's nightmare.
    - Helya, who wasn't so much "corrupt" as much as she was sick of Odyn's shit.

    Most races that have deviated from their intended purpose, like the Mogu and the Vrykul, are probably better described as completely separate races than their Titan-forged ancestors.

    Comparatively, we see:
    - Deathwing fell to corruption due to the burden of his aspect, and dragged the entirety of his flight with him.
    - Nozdormu fell (or will fall, depending on the timeline) to corruption due to the burden of his aspect, and will dragged (or will drag) the entirety of his flight with him.
    - Malygos fell to a madness of his own, using the insight and power granted by his aspect to redirect the power of Azeroth's leylines to the Nexus, which would have caused irreparable harm to Azeroth's world soul (possibly killing it).
    - Ysera dun got herself slapped by Xavius and needed to be purified by Elune.

    The only Aspect that appears to have not been a massive screw up was Alexstraza.

    I think there's a very good argument that Odyn was right in retrospect, but I would agree that Odyn probably didn't want the Aspects to be given power for silly reasons (i.e.: his pride). Hell, he literally created the Halls of Valor by flying away a part of the Ulduar installation because he was mad that the Titan Keepers disagreed with him.
    The PC's murder-hoboing their way through the Titanic vaults is a relatively recent event in the Keepers' history on Azeroth. Doesn't excuse us by any means, but it doesn't really ameliorate the Keepers' own dereliction of duty and/or active corruption well before those events. I gave Uldir a pass because its corruption was kind of a foregone conclusion based on the work being down there, and its key warden (MOTHER) actually avoided corruption entirely, making her a noteworthy exception.

    As for other aforementioned Keepers, Loken was corrupted well before the time of the Sundering and has been in Yogg-Saron's service for thousands of years. Helya was "seduced" by Loken to betray Odyn, and apparently entered into the service of Zovaal shortly afterward when she took over Helheim, so she's been corrupted for quite some time. The other Keepers in Ulduar showed symptoms of corruption before the Dragon Aspects came to be, as well; as per the events of Dawn of the Aspects. They weren't fully corrupted at that time, but Yogg-Saron's influence caused them to withdraw from their appointed duties in a kind of lackadaisical malaise, as related by Tyr (who spent much of his time outside of Ulduar and thus wasn't affected by Yogg's presence as much). Similarly, Ra wasn't corrupted by the Old Gods initially but was instead floored by existential despair and allowed his own servant, Lei Shen, to imprison him for millennia. His corruption by N'Zoth happened later on.

    The Mogu and Vrykul still count among the Titan-forged races in my view, but I was more concerned with contrasting the Keepers like Odyn with their more direct comparisons like the Aspects themselves. Having said that, I think the Aspects faired just as well as, if not slightly better, than the Keepers when it came to safeguarding Azeroth. Some of them did indeed fall to corruption, but as pointed out above, it's not as if the Keepers fared any better. To outline, I'd say here's how they stack up.

    Aspects:
    • Neltharion - corrupted by the Old Gods and had to eventually be killed by his peers with our assistance.
    • Malygos - fell to madness due to millennia of despair.
    • Nozdormu - may fall into madness in the future due to knowledge of his own unavoidable death.
    • Ysera - corrupted by Xavius, killed by Tyrande and the Druids of Val'Sharah, redeemed and now serves to protect Ardenweald.

    Keepers:
    • Loken - corrupted by Yogg-Saron, served the Old Gods until recently killed.
    • Helya - corrupted by Loken, imprisoned Odyn and joined Zovaal's campaign to enslave the metacosm.
    • Ra - succumbed to despair and became inactive, imprisoned by Lei Shen, and was later directly corrupted by N'Zoth.
    • Freya - partially corrupted by Yogg-Saron, became inactive prior to the 5undering, later found inactive in Ulduar.
    • Thorim - succumbed to despair engineered by Loken, became inactive prior to the 5undering, and was found inactive in Ulduar.
    • Hodir - partially corrupted by Yogg-Saron, became inactive prior to the Sundering, and was later corrupted again by the Legion but recovered.
    • Mimiron - corrupted by Yogg-Saron, was found corrupted in Ulduar creating engines of war for unknown reasons.

    All in all, I'd say the only two Aspects that really "fell" to corruption are Deathwing and Malygos, since while Ysera was corrupted it was in direct service to her cause, and she was only briefly corrupted before she was killed. In her case, I'd say it's more apt to say she was simply killed in service since her corruption wasn't really her own fault either, unlike with Deathwing and Malygos. I'd extend the same to Highkeeper Ra, except he fell to despair before sacrificing himself to help Champion evade N'Zoth's clutches. The Keepers, by contrast, have a long list of individuals who succumbed over time or had long histories of serving their corruptors like Loken and Helya. The Old Gods managed to neutralize almost the entirety of the Keepers, excepting only Tyr and a handful of Watchers, whereas they only corrupted Neltharion outright among the Aspects, with Malygos being collateral damage of Neltharion's actions during the War of the Ancients (and even though he was effectively neutralized, he still partially did what he was supposed to as an Aspect).
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    who is the Prime Designate now actually, since Odyn gave it up and Loken tried to get it... was it Ra? Who's now gone...

    I am unsure if it was ever technically reclaimed. Possibly offscreen and Odyn could re-appear in game with <Prime Designate> under his name.

  12. #12
    I think now would be as good a time as any to bring that back into relevance. No real way to tell for sure IF it will until we get to the continent.

    I'll admit I had completely forgotten most of this so the likelihood of Blizzard doing so is pretty high.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by KNTRPRTS View Post
    It is well documented that Odyn was the only Keeper that was against empowering Alexstrasza, Ysera, Nozdormu, Malygos and Neltharion into the Dragon Aspects.


    He was so against it that he forbid the other Keepers to do it. They went against him and did it anyway. In protest, he took a chunk out of Ulduar (which became the Halls of Valor) ran away from Azeroth and effectively pulled the Thanos quote, "Fine... I'll do it myself" by creating the titan-forged army of the Valarjar. He relinquished the title of "Prime Designate" following this.


    Now, so much has happened to the planet of Azeroth due to... problems... the Dragon Aspects have caused directly or indirectly. Most notably (in my opinion) or the issues with Neltharion becoming Deathwing (and the slew of conflict & strife that followed)... and Nozdormu, with potentially the Infinite Dragonflight coming into play in the new expansion and his potential transformation into Murozond.


    You could also throw in Malygos and his war against mortals using magic, but that was mostly a Deathwing issue as noted above.


    Now, back to Odyn. His prime reason to begin with against creating the Dragon Aspects was that "only titan-forged" can be trusted to protect Azeroth. As we have seen with the Warcraft universe's history, both the titan-forged and the Dragon Aspects have had their "stutter steps" in the defense of Azeroth, but the Aspects have had bigger failings.


    So, my questions: do you believe Odyn still has negative feelings towards the Dragon Aspects? Do you think he will be opposed to them seemingly trying to "reclaim their place as protectors of Azeroth" or even try to prevent it altogether?
    Well 2 fucked up, so Odyn had a point in a way. Odyn is sketchy, but not only because he was against empowring protodrakes.

    The story will be about giving portions of power back.. I am sure he will have somethibg to say about it. I can see him say something like: what will be the difference and who say they wont fuck uo again... malygos, deathwing.

    Odyn came out the strongest in the end, so hes arrogant way didnt end up failing. He even got hes own army and power of over death. I mean.. not bad for a jerk.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-05-21 at 03:05 PM.

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