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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Wylyth1992 View Post
    It was more I have seen people saying Survival should go back to how it was before Legion (as a Ranged spec)
    People have been saying that since the announcement of SV as a melee spec. It has survived being one of the worst specs in the game for years, now that people are playing it they aren't going to revert it.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  2. #62
    The only reason people believe that rsv and mm were too similar is because of class wide ability overlap. The playstyles of mm and rsv were as different as aff and destro lock. The fact that all the hunter specs shared a builder(steady/cobra shot) and a focus dump (arcane shot) did not make rsv and mm the same.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Ranged survival was utterly redundant thematically. I'd rather we got proper magic archer specs like dark ranger or potm or shadow hunter and have them tied to other classes.
    Ah yes you're back, I can't wait to see the upcoming mental gymnastics about how ranged SV didn't make sense but the complete thematic dumpster fire that is melee SV works perfectly.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Worgar View Post
    The only reason people believe that rsv and mm were too similar is because of class wide ability overlap. The playstyles of mm and rsv were as different as aff and destro lock. The fact that all the hunter specs shared a builder(steady/cobra shot) and a focus dump (arcane shot) did not make rsv and mm the same.
    All 3 specs played as a standard rotation with priority ability usage.
    WotLK:
    BM=SSting>AS>MS>SS
    MM=SSting>CS>AiS>AS>SS
    SV=SSting>BA>AiS>ES>SS
    This priority, standard rotation based system, remained for multiple xpacs and near identical for all 3 specs. Even after SS became a builder instead of a spender, and CS was introduced as the SV counterpart of SS. That is, until SV was changed to a melee spec, with BM becoming fully mobile and pet based instant cast abilities and MM becoming a more stationary playstyle with hard casts and active focus regen.
    There were some changes/differences here and there, with some CD usage being baked in, or a proc on ES allowing the ability to be pressed extra times, but barring those, all 3 specs played almost identical. And when I say barring those, I mean abilities such as BW, TS, or LnL procs, that didn’t really change anything except make you able to cast faster or hit harder.
    However, to say they played differently is blatantly false. You could swap from BM to MM to SV and know how to play the other since they were almost interchangeable.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    All 3 specs played as a standard rotation with priority ability usage.
    WotLK:
    BM=SSting>AS>MS>SS
    MM=SSting>CS>AiS>AS>SS
    SV=SSting>BA>AiS>ES>SS
    This priority, standard rotation based system, remained for multiple xpacs and near identical for all 3 specs. Even after SS became a builder instead of a spender, and CS was introduced as the SV counterpart of SS. That is, until SV was changed to a melee spec, with BM becoming fully mobile and pet based instant cast abilities and MM becoming a more stationary playstyle with hard casts and active focus regen.
    There were some changes/differences here and there, with some CD usage being baked in, or a proc on ES allowing the ability to be pressed extra times, but barring those, all 3 specs played almost identical. And when I say barring those, I mean abilities such as BW, TS, or LnL procs, that didn’t really change anything except make you able to cast faster or hit harder.
    However, to say they played differently is blatantly false. You could swap from BM to MM to SV and know how to play the other since they were almost interchangeable.
    Blizzard could've given the shared hunter abilities different names and visuals to better differentiate them, like they did with all the dps caster specs. If you look at every pure dps specs priority (from wotlk to wod) and compare between the ones that are in the same class, you'll notice that the priorities looked pretty much the same for all of them. The only meaningful difference between any of the pure dps specs is the gameplay feel of them and the damage profiles. Hunters were perfectly in line with all the other pure specs at the time. In the context the hunter class, which is a class that since day one of vanilla was functionally a melee dps with a 40yd range on everything relevant for dealing damage, being limited to melee to do full dps is just a handicap, not a spec identity.

  6. #66
    Stood in the Fire Wylyth1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunxsera View Post
    We didn' t get asked either. ¯\_(ツ) _/¯
    In another thread you said you didn't even manage to lvl one character to max lvl since legion - which means you don't even know sv endgame & the problems it had over the years as melee.
    So, it needs improvement, not removal. What other spec lets you have a (permanent) pet and also be melee?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Wylyth1992 View Post
    So, it needs improvement, not removal. What other spec lets you have a (permanent) pet and also be melee?
    Unholy dk, we've had it since wotlk.

  8. #68
    Stood in the Fire Wylyth1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worgar View Post
    Unholy dk, we've had it since wotlk.
    Death Knight is too slow for me. And, ok, I should have specified that the pet is an animal.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Wylyth1992 View Post
    So, it needs improvement, not removal. What other spec lets you have a (permanent) pet and also be melee?
    Unholy, far better class fantasy (and focus on pets) than discount bm hunter throwing grenades in its face.

    One can hope that blizzard will do what makes most sense in dragonblight - incorporate choice in sv talent tree so ppl that want to run around with a stick can do so and rest will get 3rd spec back. it will still be downgrade compared to wotlk - can't truly explore amunition expert/dot gameplay/mobile range gameplay without relying on pet AI without resources spend on sv rework (again), but at least we would have more ranged specs than in vanilla instead of less like right now.

  10. #70
    The Patient Tyranastus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    All 3 specs played as a standard rotation with priority ability usage.
    WotLK:
    BM=SSting>AS>MS>SS
    MM=SSting>CS>AiS>AS>SS
    SV=SSting>BA>AiS>ES>SS
    This priority, standard rotation based system, remained for multiple xpacs and near identical for all 3 specs. Even after SS became a builder instead of a spender, and CS was introduced as the SV counterpart of SS. That is, until SV was changed to a melee spec, with BM becoming fully mobile and pet based instant cast abilities and MM becoming a more stationary playstyle with hard casts and active focus regen.
    There were some changes/differences here and there, with some CD usage being baked in, or a proc on ES allowing the ability to be pressed extra times, but barring those, all 3 specs played almost identical. And when I say barring those, I mean abilities such as BW, TS, or LnL procs, that didn’t really change anything except make you able to cast faster or hit harder.
    However, to say they played differently is blatantly false. You could swap from BM to MM to SV and know how to play the other since they were almost interchangeable.
    Wait... So in your head canon, you think that the Blizzard developers, during WoD looked at DPS rotations from 3 expansions earlier and said, "uh oh, these specs share too many spells and are indistinguishable. Better change one to melee!"?

    Never mind that the rotations you are talking about were completely different by the following expansion when survival and bm lost access to aimed shot and steady shot amongst other changes, but you're also choosing to ignore the fact that even in the same expansion you're talking about, due to procs of explosive shot, survival had a priority rotation and marksmanship had a standard rotation.
    You're also using WotLK to try to prove your stance while also ignoring that mages, warlocks, rogues, DPS warriors, etc. had similar rotations on paper too and that all classes progressively received spec and playstyle changes progressively over the next three expansions. Never mind that only one class had the developers apparently run out of creative steam and decide they were artistically and creatively incapable of differentiating 2 hunter specs that, in the end, shared almost nothing.

    How about instead of using wotlk as your explanation of "played the same" resulting in a total overhaul multiple expansions later, you at least use WoD to compare rotations and playstyles.

  11. #71
    Stood in the Fire Wylyth1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyone01 View Post
    Unholy, far better class fantasy (and focus on pets) than discount bm hunter throwing grenades in its face.

    One can hope that blizzard will do what makes most sense in dragonblight - incorporate choice in sv talent tree so ppl that want to run around with a stick can do so and rest will get 3rd spec back. it will still be downgrade compared to wotlk - can't truly explore amunition expert/dot gameplay/mobile range gameplay without relying on pet AI without resources spend on sv rework (again), but at least we would have more ranged specs than in vanilla instead of less like right now.
    Another option is to embrace it as a hybrid spec. Using week mid ranged abilities that use the animation of a hand crossbow to build up a gauge while your pet tanks before jumping in to do heavy damage with your Polearm/ Staff. Kind of like Red Mage from FF14, which is also a Hybrid Melee/ Ranged spec.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyranastus View Post
    Wait... So in your head canon, you think that the Blizzard developers, during WoD looked at DPS rotations from 3 expansions earlier and said, "uh oh, these specs share too many spells and are indistinguishable. Better change one to melee!"?

    Never mind that the rotations you are talking about were completely different by the following expansion when survival and bm lost access to aimed shot and steady shot amongst other changes, but you're also choosing to ignore the fact that even in the same expansion you're talking about, due to procs of explosive shot, survival had a priority rotation and marksmanship had a standard rotation.
    You're also using WotLK to try to prove your stance while also ignoring that mages, warlocks, rogues, DPS warriors, etc. had similar rotations on paper too and that all classes progressively received spec and playstyle changes progressively over the next three expansions. Never mind that only one class had the developers apparently run out of creative steam and decide they were artistically and creatively incapable of differentiating 2 hunter specs that, in the end, shared almost nothing.

    How about instead of using wotlk as your explanation of "played the same" resulting in a total overhaul multiple expansions later, you at least use WoD to compare rotations and playstyles.
    There is no head canon. That is how they played. They never changed from that playstyle until Blizzard made SV melee in Legion, and changed how MM and BM rotations worked, as well as passive and active Focus regen.

    I love having to spell things out for people. I started in WotLK, which is where my experience comes from. Some simple Google searches would also show I am correct in how the specs played. Blizzard slowly tried making them different thru the years; however, they never diverged enough to be truly separate until Legion.
    You’re also trying to use the LnL proc as being a defining moment for making the specs different; but, as shown, outside of a proc they still play the exact same with a priority rotation with a similar amount of abilities followed by a build back phase.
    I also am not ignoring other classes, I’m just not talking about them because this is a Hunter thread discussing Hunters. If you want to claim they all played the same feel free. I don’t know as I didn’t play them and am not taking the time to look it up as it’s not really a point to discuss in this thread. If you want to discuss them, fine; but, let’s make sure that if they did all play the exact same that they, too, have evolved over time to not be as similar as they used to be. All you’re doing is providing possible further evidence that Blizzard designed specs to be played too similarly.
    I also did provide WoD as an example as the first paragraph I posted, that you replied to, stated “That is, until SV was changed to a melee spec…”. That would include all xpacs and design until that time that I stated.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    There is no head canon. That is how they played. They never changed from that playstyle until Blizzard made SV melee in Legion, and changed how MM and BM rotations worked, as well as passive and active Focus regen.

    I love having to spell things out for people. I started in WotLK, which is where my experience comes from. Some simple Google searches would also show I am correct in how the specs played. Blizzard slowly tried making them different thru the years; however, they never diverged enough to be truly separate until Legion.
    You’re also trying to use the LnL proc as being a defining moment for making the specs different; but, as shown, outside of a proc they still play the exact same with a priority rotation with a similar amount of abilities followed by a build back phase.
    I also am not ignoring other classes, I’m just not talking about them because this is a Hunter thread discussing Hunters. If you want to claim they all played the same feel free. I don’t know as I didn’t play them and am not taking the time to look it up as it’s not really a point to discuss in this thread. If you want to discuss them, fine; but, let’s make sure that if they did all play the exact same that they, too, have evolved over time to not be as similar as they used to be. All you’re doing is providing possible further evidence that Blizzard designed specs to be played too similarly.
    I also did provide WoD as an example as the first paragraph I posted, that you replied to, stated “That is, until SV was changed to a melee spec…”. That would include all xpacs and design until that time that I stated.
    I already told you that specs sharing abilities was a thing for all the pure dps specs prior to the legion reworks. Just about all the pure dps specs spell priorities would also look the same if you stripped the names off.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    Ah yes you're back, I can't wait to see the upcoming mental gymnastics about how ranged SV didn't make sense but the complete thematic dumpster fire that is melee SV works perfectly.
    Fight in melee next to your pet, if its not working fix it.

    As for ranged survival there is nothing worth bringing back, if it stayed alive it wouldnt play how it used to, all specs have grown since that time, or changed or been reduced. Old survival is never coming back, there is ZERO thematic reason to bring it back as BM and marksman exist already. If there was anything worth preserving give it to the other two ranged hunter specs.

    Melee hunter is worth preserving, its a completely unique spec with unique fantasy that doesnt overlap with other specs.

    I will say they could dump the bombs thats more of a tinker thing.

    we dont need a third ranged hunter spec that does what the other two specs already do.
    We could use archer specs for about any other class though, dark ranger, shadow hunter, celestial archer (PotM), artificer, fel devastator etc etc. There are a ton of opportunities for other classes to have archer specs that could benefit a lot more that another rehash of 2 existing specs.

    I dont care if survival gameplay becomes a supspec of marksman or beastmaster, other than that there is nothing worth bringing back.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Fight in melee next to your pet, if its not working fix it.

    As for ranged survival there is nothing worth bringing back, if it stayed alive it wouldnt play how it used to, all specs have grown since that time, or changed or been reduced. Old survival is never coming back, there is ZERO thematic reason to bring it back as BM and marksman exist already. If there was anything worth preserving give it to the other two ranged hunter specs.

    Melee hunter is worth preserving, its a completely unique spec with unique fantasy that doesnt overlap with other specs.

    I will say they could dump the bombs thats more of a tinker thing.

    we dont need a third ranged hunter spec that does what the other two specs already do.
    We could use archer specs for about any other class though, dark ranger, shadow hunter, celestial archer (PotM), artificer, fel devastator etc etc. There are a ton of opportunities for other classes to have archer specs that could benefit a lot more that another rehash of 2 existing specs.

    I dont care if survival gameplay becomes a supspec of marksman or beastmaster, other than that there is nothing worth bringing back.
    Melee hunter is only unique in that it shows that blizzard is completely willing to ignore basic game design and handicap something instead of iterating on it to improve it. Again, in the context of the WoW hunter class, one of the defining characteristics of the hunter class prior to the legion rework was that all the specs were functionally melee with a 40yd range on their damaging abilities. The only thing that separates sv from the rest of the hunter specs is this handicap.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Worgar View Post
    I already told you that specs sharing abilities was a thing for all the pure dps specs prior to the legion reworks. Just about all the pure dps specs spell priorities would also look the same if you stripped the names off.
    It’s not just the sharing of abilities. Hunters literally played the same. They all used the same spender, builder, priority setup. The only difference was a LnL proc to use multiple ES at once, or a CD usage of RF for BM. The ability usage and order did not vary, and was used the same way across them all. The specs played the same way.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Wylyth1992 View Post
    It was more I have seen people saying Survival should go back to how it was before Legion (as a Ranged spec)
    Nah, just a small vocal minority; people playing melee survival enjoy it. People previously playing survival prior to legion (remember that is 2 expansions / SIX YEARS ago!) play Marksman because that was what survival basically was, a second marksman tree with magic damage instead of physical damage.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It’s not just the sharing of abilities. Hunters literally played the same. They all used the same spender, builder, priority setup. The only difference was a LnL proc to use multiple ES at once, or a CD usage of RF for BM. The ability usage and order did not vary, and was used the same way across them all. The specs played the same way.
    So we're just ignoring the part of the quote where i told you all pure dps specs(and the warrior dps specs as well) had functionally the same damage priority list within the same class. Hunters were the victim of blizzard being lazy, if the spells hunters had in common had different names between the specs the hunter priority lists would look identical to the mage or warlock ones.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    I don't think they will, but I honestly wished BM was the melee spec

    That way Marksman could have been the physical damage spec and Survival be the magic damage spec
    This is true. In most fantasy literature, "melee" rangers tend to be the ones that rely heavily on their pets. Drizzt and Guenhwyvar being the most iconic example. Whereas their "ranged" counterparts typically just used them for scouting, distractions, or other minor usage.

    Compared to more traditional survival-based hunters who rely on ranged combat and traps to keep themselves alive in the wilderness.
    Last edited by Infinity Cubed; 2022-05-24 at 09:17 PM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockefellah View Post
    Nah, just a small vocal minority; people playing melee survival enjoy it.
    In the last six years we've seen enough data to know that, ever since the actual lauch of melee sv, it was never popular untill this patch, it was always dead last in any ranking. You cannot possiblity be that naive to think that just a ''small vocal minority'' wants a rsv. Also, this patch a lot of ppl dont play it because they enjoy it, but because its meta cuz of insane dmg potential. Infact, I've heard ppl say the tierset actually makes the rotation less enjoyable.

    People previously playing survival prior to legion (remember that is 2 expansions / SIX YEARS ago!) play Marksman because that was what survival basically was, a second marksman tree with magic damage instead of physical damage.
    No, when they made survival melee they actually revamped all 3 specs, mm in legion and mm today is absolutely nothing alike to what rsv used to be. Also you're making 2 assumptions (rsv players play mm and you're assuming the reason for it) and making a factually incorrect statement on top of that. One could argue that the specs played somewhat smiliarly mechanically in wod, but this can be counter-argued against because there were many things that were different between mm/sv at that time. Sv could multidot on 2targets mm couldnt. MM only had burst aoe with barrage, MM had the worst sustained aoe in the game, Sv aoe was good. MM had far more mobility restrictions (sniper training and hardcast aimed shot before t18 set). Focus management on mm was more impactfull and important. MM had a dps cd baseline (rf) sv did not. MM had killshot (2x) Sv did not. Sv was mostly magic dmg and very consistent. MM was more bursty and phys, actually gained dps from target switch cuz no pet, no build up, possible focus save for it + carefull aim. Etc.

    While I think the specs were somewhat similar before legion, it really isnt a clearcut case of ''oh but it was basically the same thing'' - it was not. There were real substantial differences between the specs even though they shared a similar foundation (and this isnt a bad thing.. theyre specs in the same class). Anyone claiming they were the exact same that bluntly is not intellectually capable of understanding class design, or, most often, they have an agenda/opinion that can never be swayed by arguments and logic.

    Regardless, the whole argument is stupid as fuck anyway because you only have to revamp 2/3 specs if you do indeed believe the specs are a) too similar and b) this is a problem. Instead they revamped all 3 specs. Therefore the problem of rsv supposedly being too similar was already resolved by the mm/bm revamp happening at the same time. This 3/3 spec revamp is what really set ppl off and was a complete failure. Sv is a remnant of that failure today.

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