Bring 10-man hardcore raiding back in Dragonflight with a twist!

[Lady Atia]

Too many difficulties.
I just want to raid with my friends again. Just bring back the MoP format already.

*whispers* No more difficulties! *uses reality warp powers to remove half of them*

Everyone would love a House of M style difficulty pruning, right? Right!?

[Chromell]

The 10/25man heroic (mythic split) did horrendous damage to the raiding population, massive amounts of guilds went from 25 man to two 10 man teams to 'trim the fat' and then imploded to drama.

I had a very different experience. I saw people who couldn't manage a 25M team finally taste end game content because 10M Heroic existed, in my circle at least, many more people raided. I don't see why larger (25M) raids/guilds "imploding" is bad. Why? Because they were forced into that group size in the first place. If they prefer to raid in a smaller group (which is infinitely easier to manage) I really don't see the problem, raiding 10M was a choice.

Not to mention blizzard repeatedly showed they could not get the balance to work, hell, the first boss of the first raid this system was used in was called Halfus guildbreaker because he was literally impossible in 10man for some regions on launch because of drake rng.

You said so yourself: Halfus has a bad case of rng in the fight. That's a short coming from the encounter designers, so I'll tell them what the WoW community has been telling itself since the dawn of time: git gud. The players shouldn't have to suffer for the incompetence of poor raid/boss design. If they can balance fights for four difficulties (two of them with scalling), then they can very well make a solid 10M Mythic version of the raids, just have to put in real effort.

[Aydinx2]

There's already too many different raid difficulties as it is...

Why? What negative effect do more difficulties have?

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Because it's alot more Development for something thats used by a minority of the playerbase, if they keep pushing the stupidly hard content then most casual older players will lose interest especially if they focus on catering to the hardcore crowd, that crowd aint so big to be worth it.

This argument keeps getting repeated and it just doesn't become more true.
The game has been becoming more casual friendly over the years, and has also been losing more players over the years. The more hardcore the raiding scene, the more players the game had. I'm not saying there's a direct cause -> effect, but to say the opposite is at least equally unprovable.

It's an MMORPG with a lot of players. You need to have goals that most players just can't reach. The entire point of videogames in general is that you can just not get things because you aren't "good enough". It's not like a movie stops playing when you fail the "what was this character named" check and you then need to restart the movie (although they should. it would stop my family from checking their phones during Lord of the Rings).

And those casual players are already not doing anything past Normal mode (if they even enter Normal). So if they lose interest when another difficulty gets added that's entirely on them thinking they deserve to play everything instead of earning it. You don't see me throw a fit just because the mage tower exists even though I still haven't been able to beat any of them.

People who argue against more difficult content because the majority won't see it just don't understand what videogames are.

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Everyone would love a House of M style difficulty pruning, right? Right!?

Death Knight's did kill a lot of alexstrasza's kids in Legion. If there was ever a time...

[Kiria]

Why? What negative effect do more difficulties have?

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This argument keeps getting repeated and it just doesn't become more true.
The game has been becoming more casual friendly over the years, and has also been losing more players over the years. The more hardcore the raiding scene, the more players the game had. I'm not saying there's a direct cause -> effect, but to say the opposite is at least equally unprovable.

It's an MMORPG with a lot of players. You need to have goals that most players just can't reach. The entire point of videogames in general is that you can just not get things because you aren't "good enough". It's not like a movie stops playing when you fail the "what was this character named" check and you then need to restart the movie (although they should. it would stop my family from checking their phones during Lord of the Rings).

And those casual players are already not doing anything past Normal mode (if they even enter Normal). So if they lose interest when another difficulty gets added that's entirely on them thinking they deserve to play everything instead of earning it. You don't see me throw a fit just because the mage tower exists even though I still haven't been able to beat any of them.

People who argue against more difficult content because the majority won't see it just don't understand what videogames are.

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Death Knight's did kill a lot of alexstrasza's kids in Legion. If there was ever a time...

I'm sorry you are fundamentally wrong, everyone pays the same subscription so every should have the opportunity to do the same content regardless...

It's disingenuous for someone to say otherwise.... I mean I've completed mage towers because I'm good at my character but it's not my fault I don't have as much time to grab all my friends together at the same time around their busy lives and hit mythic tier but because we dont do that it makes me a trash player according to you.. Raids should use scaling technology instead of adding more difficulties, they have it, it works they should use it!

[kenn9530]

I'm sorry you are fundamentally wrong, everyone pays the same subscription so every should have the opportunity to do the same content regardless...

It's disingenuous for someone to say otherwise.... I mean I've completed mage towers because I'm good at my character but it's not my fault I don't have as much time to grab all my friends together at the same time around their busy lives and hit mythic tier but because we dont do that it makes me a trash player according to you.. Raids should use scaling technology instead of adding more difficulties, they have it, it works they should use it!

You have as much opportunity as everyone else, however if you lack the skill you dont deserve to do the content, so paying a sub does not guarantee your ability to do any content you want. Mythic raiding is puggable easily once cross realm is active, nothing is stopping players getting practive and killing a few bosses each week.

Scaling tech does not solve the problem of properly tuning a raid encounter, thats the whole reason for a fixed raid size so they can properly design the fights.

[deenman]

you do realise you can just do 10man heroic right?

[MrLachyG]

Yes, this proposed Epic 10-man mode is meant to be tuned the close as possible to Mythic, with the only exception of a few mechanics that would require a specific class/spec.

It's not meant to be a 10-man Mythic, because this time Blizzard will not try to make the 10-man and the 20-man versions equivalent in difficulty. The objective here is to take the 20-man Mythic encounters, scale them accordingly to 10 players, and change/rework the few mechanics that would not fit/work on this size.

So basically you want 10 man mythic but under a different name. Got it.

Give it up already! Blizzard very clearly defined their reasoning for making mythic 20 man, and it is solid reasoning. You want to do 10 man, do heroic

[PsychoSe7eN]

No way Blizz can handle another raid difficulty. Period.

[Kiria]

You have as much opportunity as everyone else, however if you lack the skill you dont deserve to do the content, so paying a sub does not guarantee your ability to do any content you want. Mythic raiding is puggable easily once cross realm is active, nothing is stopping players getting practive and killing a few bosses each week.

Scaling tech does not solve the problem of properly tuning a raid encounter, thats the whole reason for a fixed raid size so they can properly design the fights.

LOL Skill is not the issue... unlike the guy I quoted I have completed numerous curves in the past and quite easily got through the mage towers, so yeah... I could probably even beat you in PvP...

Everyone should have the opportunity to do what they want to do, it should not be exclusive to no life basement dwellers.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It would be to good for the game and prove them to wrong to actually back peddle on. This game went into into free fall after they ditched 10 man heroic/mythic raiding. Its how it went from high end raiding being very available to the masses to good luck a 100 guilds a faction get to do this shit. I say it even as someone that enjoys mythic raiding right now in the 25 man formant. Just dumb to limit it to so few.

[SinR]

One Word: Tanks.

Another two words: Two Tanks.

what does everything from LFR to Mythic have in common? Two Tanks.

So one of two things happens:

your guild needs to recruit 2 more tanks that are there JUST for this "Epic" difficulty and will likely never do Mythic with your guild, or your guild has a group of 10 or so that doesn't do "Epic" Difficulty cause there's no second tank group.

[Squigglyo]

Raid Lockout

• Epic 10-man and Mythic 20-man would share the same raid lockout;

This right here kills it.


The ONLY people running Epic 10 man would EVERYONE who is NOT raiding Mythic.

Your groups would very rarely ever have anyone 'overgeared', as all the 'good' players are locked to the higher difficulty.
You've effectively put in a gear/skill cap to the 2nd highest difficulty.

[Luck4]

you do realise you can just do 10man heroic right?

I do, but as I said, Heroic progression ends within 3 weeks after the raid opens.

What are we supposed to do for the next six/seven months until the next patch comes out?

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So basically you want 10 man mythic but under a different name. Got it.

Give it up already! Blizzard very clearly defined their reasoning for making mythic 20 man, and it is solid reasoning. You want to do 10 man, do heroic

Read the thread again bro, don't post in such bad faith, in this post I was talking about mechanics only. I clearly showed in my first post how 20-man Mythic would stay as the pinnacle, most prestigious, and rewarding mode.

[Ealyssa]

Terrible idea, nope thanks.

[Luck4]

The ONLY people running Epic 10 man would EVERYONE who is NOT raiding Mythic.

Your groups would very rarely ever have anyone 'overgeared', as all the 'good' players are locked to the higher difficulty.
You've effectively put in a gear/skill cap to the 2nd highest difficulty.

This is intended, it's not meant to be another gearing step before Mythic (this "Epic" mode would unlock with LFR Wing 2), but rather a lower bracket branch for people that prefer small group content.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I'm not convinced there's an adequate audience for this difficulty.
I'd argue the biggest audience for this would be pugs who're unable to do 20 man mythics who'd only see so much value in it because they could get better gear from running m+.
I'm uncertain that a lot of heroic groups would move up to mythic because chances are good that numbers wise they're closer to running 20 man mythic than 10 man epics. Going from heroic flex to a fixed raid size of 10 is likely to be a big turnoff if someone who was once a valued member of the team is now on bench. IMO flex raiding is far too valuable a thing to give up for the sake of running the not-hardest content.
I think you should just admit that yes, you're trying to make a 10 man mythic and then reconsider your approach. You're having epic and mythic raids share a lockout.

[cparle87]

I'm talking about WoD having WAY too many difficulties to be reasonable.

Are you trying to say that you think the current system has too many or did you forget the WoD system was when the modern system was added?

[Luck4]

I'm not convinced there's an adequate audience for this difficulty.
I'd argue the biggest audience for this would be pugs who're unable to do 20 man mythics who'd only see so much value in it because they could get better gear from running m+.

It's indeed hard to tell right now, but it'll be easier to tell once WOTLK Classic begins, as said expansion delivers a 10-man mode that is really close to what I'm proposing.

I think you should just admit that yes, you're trying to make a 10 man mythic and then reconsider your approach. You're having epic and mythic raids share a lockout.

I don't agree with this because the shared lockout is only meant to avoid another gearing step between Heroic and Mythic, and in my post, I did my best to show how 20-man Mythic would retain its unique prestige.

[Erolian]

Nah this entirely misses the point. A lot of people enjoyed 10 man heroic back in the day, which would be mythic now, because they could do challenging end game content in group sizes that were far more manageable and accessible to friend groups. You're just making another difficulty level for no reason here that wouldn't attract people who are interested in the real end game

Many 20 man mythic raiders would MUCH rather push the end game content with the highest tier of rewards in 10 man group sizes so that they could easily manage and enjoy being around the rest of the raiders on the team at a much higher rate. When you've got a roster of 24 players odds are you're probably just not going to particularly like everyone but when its 11 or 12 other people the odds of that are greatly increased. You're also more likely to find a guild with times that suit yourself among everything else you might consider before joining a guild. Its a better experience for most people. Most just don't seem to make the connection that the difference between even cutting edge, hall of fame and guilds racing for world first is absolutely massive and that for at least that first (and largest) group there the 20 man burden probably wasn't worth the trade off for many of them but they have nowhere else to go in game because everything else is a joke by comparison

Forcing all of those 10 man guilds to disband or move to 20 man might have given situationally better balanced boss design but it came at a very significant social cost that I personally think wasn't worth it for most guilds. I have every CE achievement put into the game and truthfully the raid design hasn't been that much better and Blizzard often doesn't actually lean into that expectation that you have every class to do something interesting with it

[Luck4]

Nah this entirely misses the point. A lot of people enjoyed 10 man heroic back in the day, which would be mythic now, because they could do challenging end game content in group sizes that were far more manageable and accessible to friend groups.

I don't think it misses the point because it's near, if not impossible, to make both 20-man and 10-man at the same level of difficulty. This is one of the main reasons why 10-man went extinct.

What I'm proposing, is a 10-man mode that will be challenging as possible taking into account the reduced group size, and without requiring specific classes/specs abilities.