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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's really not. If it has four limbs and wings, it's a dragon. If it only has legs and wings, it's a wyvern. This is a super common fantasy distinction.
    It really is. There's no actual consistency to the distinction and the historical precedent for the distinction is based on just ignoring all sorts of dragons to claim one location is the only correct form of classification.

    It's actually very rare to have any sort of true distinction in fantasy. In D&D Wyverns are classified as dragons, lore'd as part of the dragon family,called "lesser" or "bestial" dragons, and speak draconic. In MTG they are part of "drakes", a branched evolution from elder dragons considered a separate group of "lesser" dragon-like-things. Elder Scrolls makes no distinction. Wow makes no distinction (hence why this whole claim is dumb) because Wyverns are a totally separate animal unrelated to dragons, and we see here with dragon riding that not having four legs doesn't make you not a dragon.

    It's made up. Just a really stupid "well akshully" claim that isn't even correct, because there's no actual consistency and what a wyvern or dragon is, is totally dependent on the individual IP or culture.

  2. #22
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    The origin of Cloud Serpents is tied to the well of eternity with all other Wild Gods so its likely that they are just animals mutated by the well with Heavenly and Thundering Could Serpents being more magically empowered sub species.
    Do you have a source for that? Because all we have been given about their origins is a tale that Lei Shen summoned a storm near the time he died. It started Whitepetal Lake on fire and when the flames died out a cloud serpent hatchling was seen in the center of the lake. That would later be called Alani. It doesn't matter if they "break too many rules" because Blizzard has clearly stated they are different then aspects and their related "scene" and they left them more ambiguous.

    Yu'lon was transformed by the waters of the Well of Eternity that gathered in the vale. But is not really a cloud serpent.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    It really is. There's no actual consistency to the distinction and the historical precedent for the distinction is based on just ignoring all sorts of dragons to claim one location is the only correct form of classification.

    It's actually very rare to have any sort of true distinction in fantasy. In D&D Wyverns are classified as dragons, lore'd as part of the dragon family,called "lesser" or "bestial" dragons, and speak draconic. In MTG they are part of "drakes", a branched evolution from elder dragons considered a separate group of "lesser" dragon-like-things. Elder Scrolls makes no distinction. Wow makes no distinction (hence why this whole claim is dumb) because Wyverns are a totally separate animal unrelated to dragons, and we see here with dragon riding that not having four legs doesn't make you not a dragon.

    It's made up. Just a really stupid "well akshully" claim that isn't even correct, because there's no actual consistency and what a wyvern or dragon is, is totally dependent on the individual IP or culture.
    Ah huh. Sure. anyway, two of the models are clearly wyverns so they really shouldn't have made them into options for DRAGON riding.

  4. #24
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Ah huh. Sure. anyway, two of the models are clearly wyverns so they really shouldn't have made them into options for DRAGON riding.
    WilderDrake is the name blizzard has given to the "wyvern-like" base. The WC3 manual said that Wyvrens, the flying lions, share a common ancestor with Dragons. So it is clear in Warcraft lore that they are all Dragons. It is silly to try to use real life historical terms for Warcraft when they have their own established lore.

    Also it is a bit of a stretch to call the proto-drake as having four limbs. The model used on the expansion website has tiny little arms compared to the Elemental proto-drake models. So 3 of the 4 dragons are not "historical earth" accurate.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-05-20 at 04:04 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Do you have a source for that? Because all we have been given about their origins is a tale that Lei Shen summoned a storm near the time he died. It started Whitepetal Lake on fire and when the flames died out a cloud serpent hatchling was seen in the center of the lake. That would later be called Alani. It doesn't matter if they "break too many rules" because Blizzard has clearly stated they are different then aspects and their related "scene" and they left them more ambiguous.

    Yu'lon was transformed by the waters of the Well of Eternity that gathered in the vale. But is not really a cloud serpent.
    Warcraft Chronicle Vol 1. Wild Gods including Yulon and the Celestials were normal creatures that were mutated with the Well's energy with which Freya was experimenting during the Ordering of Azeroth. This LONG predates Lei Shen and the Mogu Empire. Given the timing the Cloud Serpents even predate proto drakes and the aspects.

    Pandarian legends are not reliable many of them are contradictory because they are more of a story than a true history.

  6. #26
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Warcraft Chronicle Vol 1. Wild Gods including Yulon and the Celestials were normal creatures that were mutated with the Well's energy with which Freya was experimenting during the Ordering of Azeroth. This LONG predates Lei Shen and the Mogu Empire. Given the timing the Cloud Serpents even predate proto drakes and the aspects. Pandarian legends are not reliable many of them are contradictory because they are more of a story than a true history.
    Except there is no mention of Cloud Serpents at the same time the August Celestials were created. The Wild Gods are not the same thing as cloud serpents even though Yu'lon looks like a cloud serpent. It is clear that Pandaren, or Mogu, didn't have access to cloud serpents prior to the death of Lei Shen. While the folktale is unreliable it is still the only origin story we have. It wasn't until about 300 years later that cloud serpents appeared in a prominent role. When the Pandaren learned to ride them so they could fight the Zandalari.

    Also Chronicles indicates that proto-dragons are descendants of Elementals that did not get imprisoned when the Titans created the Elemental Plane. So there is no possible way for Cloud Serpents to have existed before proto-dragons (drake and dragon is used interchangeably).
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-05-20 at 04:31 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    The first Wild Gods are animals that were mutated Yu'lon was once a normal cloud Serpent. Its very likely that she and other Heavenly Cloud Serpents were the first and like Humans and Orcs some later devolved into the more base forms.

    Lei Shen mutated a Cloud Serpent to create Megaera in ToT so we know for a fact they existed before well before his death.

    The Legend concerning the birth of Alani is obviously fictional as the legend says that an army of Pandaren Monks destroyed Lei Shen and his Mogu army in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms which is inaccurate on two parts. Monks were not around during Lei Shen's time and he died far from Pandaria. Monks would not become a thing until thousands of years later when Kang launched his rebellion.

    Also Cloud Serpents preexisting Proto Drakes is possible without them preexisting the elementals that later became proto drakes. We have no idea when the elements eventually became proto drakes.

  8. #28
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    The first Wild Gods are animals that were mutated Yu'lon was once a normal cloud Serpent. Its very likely that she and other Heavenly Cloud Serpents were the first and like Humans and Orcs some later devolved into the more base forms.
    There is nothing in the lore to state that however. Even Chronicles doesn't mention what lifeforms they were prior to becoming the August Celestials. It may be likely but it still isn't stated to be the case. Yu'lon could have been a wind serpent for example. The only mention of Cloud Serpents prior to the "origin story" we have is Nalak and Megaera. There is nothing else other then their adventure journal description to explain the lore.

    Kang was only 200 years after Lei Shens death. Not thousands. The lore also implies that Kang was not the first monk only the first to teach martial arts and found a secret order.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-05-20 at 06:22 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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