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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post


    The more dramatic shading, the less human-like hands, the texture of the face, the coarse looking hair as opposed to the Beauty and the Beast mane...
    I will give you dramatic shading, putting aside that it looks like ass in-game.

    But your hands point makes absolutely no sense when that is entirely in line with the art you linked, which has extremely human hands, not weird hoof-grabbers, your facial texture point is just wrong, the artwork's nose and skin texture is much closer to the new model than the older one's weird more cow-like look any shiny nostrils, and the coarse hair is also totally wrong, because you can see that the old model is much smoother than the visible coarse fur of the new model that's in-line with the artwork--I might give you the mane (again ignoring that it's a pixelated mess) if the artwork's mane was course and rough looking, but it 100% isn't. It's regular flowing hair.

    Meanwhile the new model also updates the jewlery and horn caps to not look like cartoony baubles, the eyes are sharper and much closer to the artwork compared to the wonky, blankly staring older version, the entire facial structure is much closer, the hooves are actual worn hooves instead of smooth, shiny metal, the muscles are much more vascular and well defined on the new model (again, in line with the artwork), the underwear is actual well constructed leather clothing like the artwork instead of some weird rag diaper.

    I fail to see how the new model is anything but a step up if what you want stylistically is that artwork. If you want terrible lighting for the sake of dramatic contrast, bump your monitor contrast up--it's the same low quality effect the older model used.

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Is the original exactly like the concept art? No. Is it a shitload closer than the new one? Absolutely.
    lol what? in what world is the old one closer?

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I will give you dramatic shading, putting aside that it looks like ass in-game.

    But your hands point makes absolutely no sense when that is entirely in line with the art you linked, which has extremely human hands, not weird hoof-grabbers, your facial texture point is just wrong, the artwork's nose and skin texture is much closer to the new model than the older one's weird more cow-like look any shiny nostrils, and the coarse hair is also totally wrong, because you can see that the old model is much smoother than the visible coarse fur of the new model that's in-line with the artwork--I might give you the mane (again ignoring that it's a pixelated mess) if the artwork's mane was course and rough looking, but it 100% isn't. It's regular flowing hair.

    Meanwhile the new model also updates the jewlery and horn caps to not look like cartoony baubles, the eyes are sharper and much closer to the artwork compared to the wonky, blankly staring older version, the entire facial structure is much closer, the hooves are actual worn hooves instead of smooth, shiny metal, the muscles are much more vascular and well defined on the new model (again, in line with the artwork), the underwear is actual well constructed leather clothing like the artwork instead of some weird rag diaper.

    I fail to see how the new model is anything but a step up if what you want stylistically is that artwork. If you want terrible lighting for the sake of dramatic contrast, bump your monitor contrast up--it's the same low quality effect the older model used.
    If you can't appreciate the effects of high contrast, to the point of mocking it as an artistic choice, I don't really see a need to bother further because you are just refusing to understand the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    lol what? in what world is the old one closer?
    In the world where the artwork would look out of place in an animated Disney film and the new one wouldn't?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you can't appreciate the effects of high contrast, to the point of mocking it as an artistic choice, I don't really see a need to bother further because you are just refusing to understand the point.
    I can appreciate the effects of high contrast, it's just that in this instance the effect is the end result looking terrible and inconsistent with the majority of models and world. I appreciate that you needed an out to not have to address the numerous ways I pointed out the new model is closer in design to the artwork than the old model was, it sucks when something isn't compatible with a poor conceived narrative.

  5. #105
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    But like why?
    Like why would they ? Outland is ultra old content, literally pointless to waste work time on updating content nobody cares about...
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
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  6. #106
    You gotta laugh at people defending hardware limitations as artistic choice, lmao.

    Old wow looks like Ps2 graphics because... that's what the hardware at the time allowed. No, your hyena doesn't look like that because the artist wanted it to... hence the update lmao

  7. #107
    Honestly because it looks better IN THAT CASE.

    Would look weird if youhave a very low graphic world wiht high quality mobs.
    This way the overall look stays consistent and you get used to it in like 4 quests.

  8. #108
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Here is a good example:




    That's original Tauren concept art. Do you actually believe that the model in the game reflects that aesthetic? The concept art is a brutal, gritty minotaur warrior. The model in the game is My Friend The Happy Fun Cowman.
    Mate? You do know, that EVERYTHING in concept hardly looks like what was added to the game, right? Things are adjusted to the nature, aesthetic, and identity of the game? Nothing of concept other than some written words, hardly any art, looks how they want it to be portrayed in the game.

    You could take the screenshot of the old Tauren model too, I know you took the new one in an attempt to prove a little more point, but even the old one doesn't fit the concept art. WoW, and Warcraft's core of the games, have all, whether you like it or not, a cartoony feel. The only thing that happened was, that things got smoother, got more fleshed out, got painted up different instead of stretching a painted sheet over a low polygon skeleton.

    And things develop. New graphics (which IS needed), new build-ups, you might not like it but that is why you have the Classic cave where you can hide until Project Classic festers and rots slowly, can still be a nice home but I like to see the progression and development of what we call home, and not be stuck in the past forever - this isn't RuneScape, which is amazingly still going but has its own sprinkle of aesthetics and identity to do so, and is slowly updating until people panics and get a remake version.
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Ehm, Draenor is Draenor. Only thing they are missing was Netherstorm.
    The Netherstorm, Shadowmoon Valley that is fel, Auchindoon that has exploded, the Zangarmarsh, Hellfire Peninsula that is irradiated, Blade's Edge mountains

    Really the only thing that looks somewhat the same is Nagrand and even that is missing the entire Halaani Basin.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Like why would they ? Outland is ultra old content, literally pointless to waste work time on updating content nobody cares about...
    They really could go for a THIRD Draenor expansion (after TBC and WoD). WHen the time came for the Light expansion imagine this premise. Yrel's faction somehow manages to superimpose AU Draenor into Outland as AU Draenor is dying (could be Orcs, could be Light, could be the fact that timeline is collapsing). Then we'd get a new Outland that has features of both the Old and the New one and which could serve as the main continent for a Light (or Light vs Void) expansion. Then we'd have something closer to revamped Outland since they could keep the more distinctive features like the Netherstorm with the Ethereal Biodomes.

  10. #110
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post


    The more dramatic shading, the less human-like hands, the texture of the face, the coarse looking hair as opposed to the Beauty and the Beast mane...
    First of all, really bad picture quality, doesn't serve the old or new model right.

    Secondly, the shading? That is not dramatic, it looks like that because it is an old model which needed a design to take away from the frame of the creation.

    Third, the "human-like" three-fingered bulky hairy hands? The ones that are textured according to the fur of the Tauren which can also be dark if you picked a different fur? So, not really human-like but you just reaching?

    Fourth, the snout? The scrunched up design of a snout that was made in attempt to make the face look a little different on a low-quality model, which then got updated on the new model, and instead of making it look like painted on wrinkles, the model makes it look like they are there but without being too dark to take all the view of the face?

    Fifth, the coarse-looking hair? Do you mean, the hair patches painted on which have always been looking like wearing two toupés (Wigs) on each shoulder to fluff up your look? Guess what, they are still there, on the model, except it is smoothed out now, so it doesn't look as disconnected.

    Sixth, the "beauty, and the beast" complaint, which one are you talking about? Because both line up with creations of Disney characters, for that is the nature of them, they are cartoony.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The Netherstorm, Shadowmoon Valley that is fel, Auchindoon that has exploded, the Zangarmarsh, Hellfire Peninsula that is irradiated, Blade's Edge mountains

    Really the only thing that looks somewhat the same is Nagrand and even that is missing the entire Halaani Basin..
    You do know that we cannot compare the two yet? One has been through a global disaster to the point of being crumbling floating rocks, the next update outland gets, it is meant to be smaller than it is now. Shit changes because a lot of shit has happened in connection with the Orcs and the Burning Legion, but just to add another tag, it is a different universe and timeline, it is not our Draenor, it is the version of how Outland could have looked back then.

    The Draenor model we have has hardly experienced a fracture of the old Draenor (Outland), as everything changed upon the arrival of Garrosh, and for that matter, us, which changed their whole world development and time development to the point where a Supreme Overlord leader is a Light worshipping Draenei, and we even gave her a lot of tools to become so before we left.
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    You do know that we cannot compare the two yet? One has been through a global disaster to the point of being crumbling floating rocks, the next update outland gets, it is meant to be smaller than it is now. Shit changes because a lot of shit has happened in connection with the Orcs and the Burning Legion, but just to add another tag, it is a different universe and timeline, it is not our Draenor, it is the version of how Outland could have looked back then.

    The Draenor model we have has hardly experienced a fracture of the old Draenor (Outland), as everything changed upon the arrival of Garrosh, and for that matter, us, which changed their whole world development and time development to the point where a Supreme Overlord leader is a Light worshipping Draenei, and we even gave her a lot of tools to become so before we left.
    That's the issue with what original poster wrote. He claimed that Outland does not need an upgrade because we already have AU Draenor. Which is totally different world.

  12. #112
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulggun View Post
    That's the issue with what original poster wrote. He claimed that Outland does not need an upgrade because we already have AU Draenor. Which is totally different world.
    Then I missed that part of the post, my apologies. No, AU Draenor is not Outland, Outland is not AU Draenor, two different universes, two different times of development, two different fates. They do not substitute. Outland does not need new demon models until Outland is updated, and the update hopefully, follows the shitshow that Outland is in, a crumbling mess with the inability to feed everything there.
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I can appreciate the effects of high contrast, it's just that in this instance the effect is the end result looking terrible and inconsistent with the majority of models and world. I appreciate that you needed an out to not have to address the numerous ways I pointed out the new model is closer in design to the artwork than the old model was, it sucks when something isn't compatible with a poor conceived narrative.
    I can’t even debate with “lawl high contrast, just turn your monitor to high contrast”. The idea that I’m supposed to treat that seriously is ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Mate? You do know, that EVERYTHING in concept hardly looks like what was added to the game, right? Things are adjusted to the nature, aesthetic, and identity of the game? Nothing of concept other than some written words, hardly any art, looks how they want it to be portrayed in the game.

    You could take the screenshot of the old Tauren model too, I know you took the new one in an attempt to prove a little more point, but even the old one doesn't fit the concept art. WoW, and Warcraft's core of the games, have all, whether you like it or not, a cartoony feel. The only thing that happened was, that things got smoother, got more fleshed out, got painted up different instead of stretching a painted sheet over a low polygon skeleton.

    And things develop. New graphics (which IS needed), new build-ups, you might not like it but that is why you have the Classic cave where you can hide until Project Classic festers and rots slowly, can still be a nice home but I like to see the progression and development of what we call home, and not be stuck in the past forever - this isn't RuneScape, which is amazingly still going but has its own sprinkle of aesthetics and identity to do so, and is slowly updating until people panics and get a remake version.
    It’s just false to pretend that higher fidelity means becoming more American childrens cartoon style. There are plenty of games that are high fidelity that have other art styles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    First of all, really bad picture quality, doesn't serve the old or new model right.

    Secondly, the shading? That is not dramatic, it looks like that because it is an old model which needed a design to take away from the frame of the creation.

    Third, the "human-like" three-fingered bulky hairy hands? The ones that are textured according to the fur of the Tauren which can also be dark if you picked a different fur? So, not really human-like but you just reaching?

    Fourth, the snout? The scrunched up design of a snout that was made in attempt to make the face look a little different on a low-quality model, which then got updated on the new model, and instead of making it look like painted on wrinkles, the model makes it look like they are there but without being too dark to take all the view of the face?

    Fifth, the coarse-looking hair? Do you mean, the hair patches painted on which have always been looking like wearing two toupés (Wigs) on each shoulder to fluff up your look? Guess what, they are still there, on the model, except it is smoothed out now, so it doesn't look as disconnected.

    Sixth, the "beauty, and the beast" complaint, which one are you talking about? Because both line up with creations of Disney characters, for that is the nature of them, they are cartoony.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You do know that we cannot compare the two yet? One has been through a global disaster to the point of being crumbling floating rocks, the next update outland gets, it is meant to be smaller than it is now. Shit changes because a lot of shit has happened in connection with the Orcs and the Burning Legion, but just to add another tag, it is a different universe and timeline, it is not our Draenor, it is the version of how Outland could have looked back then.

    The Draenor model we have has hardly experienced a fracture of the old Draenor (Outland), as everything changed upon the arrival of Garrosh, and for that matter, us, which changed their whole world development and time development to the point where a Supreme Overlord leader is a Light worshipping Draenei, and we even gave her a lot of tools to become so before we left.
    You aren’t really disagreeing with me, just telling me how much you like the new style. I don’t care if you like the new style. It’s still a different style,

  14. #114
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It’s just false to pretend that higher fidelity means becoming more American childrens cartoon style. There are plenty of games that are high fidelity that have other art styles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You aren’t really disagreeing with me, just telling me how much you like the new style. I don’t care if you like the new style. It’s still a different style,
    Aye, and other games have their own art style, meanwhile the new models in WoW are basically just updates of the old, not far from the old other than having more texture and quality, but it is okay, we don't need to argue as you have the nostalgia zone to hide in. Many get worried, confused, or scared about changes.
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  15. #115
    Ever worse: Outland, Silvermoon an Exodar have almost 16 years, while Azeroth was redone 12 years ago and with more care about how the models would age.

  16. #116
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    It may surprise you, but I like old elementals much more. I’ll say even more - old warlock pets too (only new ipms' population is more or less adequate here), new ones not only distort colors in places, but contain heaps of unnecessary/inappropriate little "things".

    I'll pass tauren discussion, just clarify that problem in compatibility/aesthetics began exactly when they decided to do work from scratch !literally!.. but we have already talked about this more than once.
    - - - - - -
    neither same shapes (smoothing corners suppose to be much more moderate), nor same colors (smearing/shadowing/replacing/blurring doesn't suppose to happened at all, because color perception is one of essential elements, we discussed this separately in environment topic - old contrasting, but bright/vivid and warm colors; their new feathers and fur implementation what a mess), nor same animations (it was forbidden to replace key animations in any case, because this completely loses characters recognition, should start from existing motion skeleton with start alignment and "adding move points" after in order to have full compatibility, that's how good work could happen)... all conclusions have already been made a long time ago:
    Eazy
    That's exactly what I was saying about before. The new models aren't the "old models" revamped, they're totally new, the resemblance is really small.
    That's the truth.

    ps. There was necessary to proceed from what it is, and they proceeded from what they want/somehow will appear, and those are completely different things
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-05-26 at 05:37 AM.
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Aye, and other games have their own art style, meanwhile the new models in WoW are basically just updates of the old, not far from the old other than having more texture and quality, but it is okay, we don't need to argue as you have the nostalgia zone to hide in. Many get worried, confused, or scared about changes.
    I don't know why you keep rambling about nostalgia. Can you not make a coherent argument so you need to immune my competency or motives instead?

    FF14 is overhauling their graphics and the changes look absolutely stunning, completely amazing. Where is my nostalgia there? Could it just be that their overhauls are retaining the art style and improving upon it, rather than changing direction or doubling down on one aspect of their style at the detriment of others?

    I don't know why it's so hard to say "I prefer the new direction". Isn't it exhausting to be so fixated on denigrating people who disagree with you?

  18. #118
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skirdus View Post
    It's because these models don't overwrite the old ones. They're "newer" models, yes, but there are key differences that set them apart.

    Take the updated moarg model for example. The one introduced in Legion actually belongs to a sub-variant known as a "moarg brute", as evidenced by the visual emphasis on the "brute" part as opposed to the various mechanical enhancements moarg are typically known for. It would be strange for them to overwrite BC-era moarg with that model because they aren't exactly the same thing. And the same concept applies to the wyrmtongues, who essentially replaced gan'arg demons in Legion despite being an entirely different race altogether. I'd personally be a little miffed if they just went and changed all the gan'args in the game into wyrmtongues, even if the model is higher quality in nature

    I think they overwrite old ones.

    I’ve been doing a lot of transmogg runs recently and i’m surprised when i see new models in a raid from an expansion long ago.

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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    And things develop. New graphics (which IS needed), new build-ups, you might not like it but that is why you have the Classic cave where you can hide until Project Classic festers and rots slowly, can still be a nice home but I like to see the progression and development of what we call home, and not be stuck in the past forever - this isn't RuneScape, which is amazingly still going but has its own sprinkle of aesthetics and identity to do so, and is slowly updating until people panics and get a remake version.
    I think most people that criticize the modern artstyle are in fact just doing that: Criticizing the artstyle, not necessarily the quality of the model.

    I don't think this necessarily about which model is "superior", but rather how it's supposed to look.
    And a lot of people that defend the modern artstyle often use the simple fact that modern thing simply have more polygons and thus look more fresh as proof that "actually modern models are better, you're a dumbass for criticizing them".
    Which is frankly an unfair argument, you compare the work of the current age with something that was almost done two decades ago, when it involves freaking computers where tech evolves at a lightning pace.
    Even in more conservative industries, 20 years changes a lot of things.

    Like, this isn't some indepth artistic discussion or a loony Classic conspiracy, other people (including former Blizzard devs) have noted that the modern artstyle has deviated from the original one.
    Which in itself isn't also something that in itself has to be held up against the artists, some thing simply are the product of the tools the artists had.
    The Classic models wouldn't look like as they do if they had the tech we have now in 2000-2004, simply because they couldn't go for any high res models and thus had to find workarounds or completely skip portraying certain details.

    Would they look just look like the current models do?
    That's up for debate.

    It also must be said that keeping a coherent artstyle as tech evolves isn't very easy, making a model look coherent within one project is easy, making a model that is made with 2022 technology that looks consistent to a 2005 one is a totally different thing.
    That's not an argument that really favors either side, it's just how it is, but you shouldn't pretend that's not happening and that anyone who notices a difference in artstyle is just imagining things.

    You can also compare the modern WoW with the HotS ones and you'll notice difference in artstyle.
    While HotS is a Moba and thus certain elements are designed slightly differently (Models in RTS / Moba need to be a lot more readable from a topdown perspective as compared to regular 3D enviroments), you can still see a difference, compare the Classic Abo Model, Updated Abo Model and Stitches in HotS - they're not the same artstyle.
    And HotS Lead Artist is Samwise Didier, the guy who created the 3D warcraft Artstyle.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-05-25 at 04:30 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    how is the first one different from the one you spoke about? that is THE hyena model.
    And by "claymation soft styalized shapes" do you mean the round and more detailed cartoonish graphics instead of jagged models with low polygon counts or EXTREMLY relalistic models we see in other games?
    Yes, the model is the same, but model and texture cannot be seen separately especially on older models; some textures make them work, some don't.

    Well this particular brand of "more detailed cartoonish" graphics definitely qualifies as claymation, there are plenty of other options too, some cartoonish, some merely stylised in another way, and some that could qualify as realism.
    I am not a fan of this particular one, and prefer even the older jagged one to this stuff.
    Plenty of other things have neatly improved though, and credit where it's due: There are times when they make the new style work too. Just not in this case.

    TL;DR: The style itself can be done right and wrong, and this one's wrong. Old stuff done right still beats that.
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