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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude, you're either not reading what I'm writing or you're deliberating misinterpreting it to create arguments that I'm not presenting. I have no problem with criticism of the game on a forum. I never once have said I did. I'm also not saying that you have to be positive about WoW to discuss the game on a forum; I'm a saying boring, non-criticism like "the game doesn't respect my time," is another way to spin entitlement which does little to further discussion about how to improve anything.
    How exactly is a very specific example of what the game could do better to respect someone’s time a “lazy non-criticism”. I told you very specifically what I said I think it should do and you literally said “yeah well that’s just your opinion”.

    Yeah. That’s the point of it.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    How exactly is a very specific example of what the game could do better to respect someone’s time a “lazy non-criticism”. I told you very specifically what I said I think it should do and you literally said “yeah well that’s just your opinion”.

    Yeah. That’s the point of it.
    ...did you miss the part where I said what you want from the game is not the same as what other people want from the game? Hell, it might not even be what the OP wants from the game which is precisely what started this entire silly semantic exchange. It's great that you pivoted your non-argument into a list of things that are actionable but not everybody who uses this trite, over-used phrase does.

  3. #143
    I used to be opposed to this, but I’ve come around.

    Aotc and KSM are already similar in difficulty.

    Let that be where the gear ends at 265/272 for both.

    Mythic raids will be cosmetics only and focus on progression over farm, which is something that happens anyway with how lockout extensions go for months for most guilds.

    That also has gap between casuals content (252/259) and top end be only 13 item levels.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    ...did you miss the part where I said what you want from the game is not the same as what other people want from the game? Hell, it might not even be what the OP wants from the game which is precisely what started this entire silly semantic exchange. It's great that you pivoted your non-argument into a list of things that are actionable but not everybody who uses this trite, over-used phrase does.
    Yes that’s the point of discussion is to give your opinions even if they differ from others. That’s literally what pushing a discussion is about, like that’s how you do it.

    Others have different opinions, wow who would have thought. Almost as if they can come to a place where they can maybe type their opinions and have discussion with other people who might have different opinions…. What would a place like this be called? Maybe a fo…. for….. foru…… oh I don’t know something.

  5. #145
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    100% agree! Mythic should only be about skill, not gear.

  6. #146
    The biggest problem with that mentality is that people like to see numbers go up when spending a large amount of time on it. I myself might dislike raids with a passion but i dont want to them go away completely and a cosmetics only way of a reward would easily do that. Perhaps not making it so damn punishing would be a good start and instead of it being some sorta modern take on dungeons and dragons ( i hate that rolepay crap ) it should be more akin to hop in and out of games like FPS or battle royal.

  7. #147
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    Disagree. You're basing your critique on degenerate RWF play that should've been moved to an open invite tourny realm with an even playing field a long time ago. A lot of these players do what they have to to gain an edge and feel blizz should design the game to protect them from themselves anyway as they don't enjoy spending more time on splits than mythic bosses either.

    Because M+ doesn't have lockouts and the GV - they've reduced overall gear-drops. You want to remove mythic raid loot altogether when loot is supposed to make subsequent weeks of bosskills smoother as a reward for overcoming the challenge. Also remember the target-audience for this game is adolescents with time on their hands.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2022-05-23 at 06:23 PM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Um ok?
    I believe the game should have systems in that respect your time more, as in you shouldn’t have to spend days of gametime in order to ENTER the content that you wish to play. A random casual should realistically be at least able to step into and compete with everyone else within a month or so of very casual play.
    Other games and mmos do this and they do just fine. Look at destiny 2, you can hit the ‘cap’ for gear INSANELY fast and almost all of this gear is obtained through weeklies that are done in a system similar to a random heroic dungeon que.
    Giving people more gear for being casual does not hurt you as a hardcore player at all. If anything this just ADDS to the possible group pool you could be having.
    I don't even consider higher difficulty levels a new content. Yeah, you could prolly argue Mythic boss has this mechanic the Heroic version doesn't, and for one guy this change will be enough to call it "new content". For me, it's not - it's the same content as Normal or Heroic raid, but more difficult. So in that regard, it is trivially easy for any player to try out all the content WoW has to offer. Same goes for dungeons, +25 is not different than +3; maybe +10 if you want to argue Affixes are "content".

    Now, should the most difficult content be available to any player within a month or so of very casual play? No, I don't believe so - not in a game that aims to keep players for as long as possible (and it is critical for a game like WoW; otherwise a new player coming to the game late in a patch might find himself unable to do group content, because everyone else has already "completed" it). So yeah, WoW "respects" your time in regards to available content (and I mean actual content here) - you can easily complete the Normal raid as soon as you want. Now, if you want to do the same content on higher difficulty levels, you just have to decide if it's worth your time and effort. The game is very clear about it - you'll need to invest that time. And if other games make it easier for you and that's the experience you desire, that's great! It means both you and me have a game to play that we enjoy the way it is. I very much enjoy the slow and steady progression path; if a casual could attain end game gear in a month or so, how much time would a hardcore player need? A week? And then what? Nah, I don't want to be showered with upgrades, I swear.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-05-23 at 06:32 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    The issue that never seems to get addressed is how does balancing work?

    If you don't have gear upgrades to you make each boss a equal challenge? How does that look from beginning to end?
    I don’t think it changes much to be honest.

    The days of killing early bosses to gear up for end bosses are long gone unless you’re on the very bleeding edge.

    With mythic+ as part of the equation most guilds are near 278 by the time they even hit the “hard” bosses, and they’ll extend indefinitely until the end boss dies, even further removing early boss gear from the equation.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    If mythic dropped no gear, nobody would do it. Same as every other content.
    Maybe they could give out Apex crystals from WoD. Something that is oddly worse than nothing.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Yes that’s the point of discussion is to give your opinions even if they differ from others. That’s literally what pushing a discussion is about, like that’s how you do it.

    Others have different opinions, wow who would have thought. Almost as if they can come to a place where they can maybe type their opinions and have discussion with other people who might have different opinions…. What would a place like this be called? Maybe a fo…. for….. foru…… oh I don’t know something.
    I have told you twice now that I'm not disagreeing with you on what the purpose of a forum is. This is now the third time that I'm telling you that my criticism isn't of people disagreeing with the direction WoW is taking; it is plainly with the phrase "WoW doesn't respect (my) time" because this blanket statement is far too broad and far too reaching to be used as a legitimate talking point in any argument (and is often incorrectly used in place of "here's what I think WoW should be" [see also: entitlement]). If you don't want to engage with me on this matter, that's fine. But I'd appreciate it if you'd stop going on paragraph-long word salad diatribes about things I'm not arguing.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I don't even consider higher difficulty levels a new content. Yeah, you could prolly argue Mythic boss has this mechanic the Heroic version doesn't, and for one guy this change will be enough to call it "new content". For me, it's not - it's the same content as Normal or Heroic raid, but more difficult. So in that regard, it is trivially easy for any player to try out all the content WoW has to offer. Same goes for dungeons, +25 is not different than +3; maybe +10 if you want to argue Affixes are "content".
    I didn’t say anything about it being ‘new’ content I’m really not sure where you are picking that up from. Mythic raiding and normal raiding is obviously different, no one argues that. If I want to get into the hardest content the game has to offer, or if content is a word that’s throwing you off we will use “activity”, then I should be able to without spending countless days farming for it.

    I didn’t say “I want to try out the content just to see it” I specifically said “I want to play the most difficult content the game has to offer”.

    Now, should the most difficult content be available to any player within a month or so of very casual play? No, I don't believe so - not in a game that aims to keep players for as long as possible (and it is critical for a game like WoW; otherwise a new player coming to the game late in a patch might find himself unable to do group content, because everyone else has already "completed" it). So yeah, WoW "respects" your time in regards to available content (and I mean actual content here) - you can easily complete the Normal raid as soon as you want. Now, if you want to do the same content on higher difficulty levels, you just have to decide if it's worth your time and effort. The game is very clear about it - you'll need to invest that time. And if other games make it easier for you and that's the experience you desire, that's great! It means both you and me have a game to play that we enjoy the way it is. I very much enjoy the slow and steady progression path; if a casual could attain end game gear in a month or so, how much time would a hardcore player need? A week? And then what? Nah, I don't want to be showered with upgrades, I swear.
    No offense but this is a really disingenuous comment right here.

    I’m not saying “we should be able to see all the content in the game”. As in stepping foot into the weenie hut jr. version of the dungeons and raids.

    I specifically said, it doesn’t respect your time, because in order to do the content that you want to do, which is the hardest content the game has to offer, you have to spend countless days played in order to even step FOOT in it. That’s what I’m saying. If you bring up just stepping into LFR and compare it to Mythic raiding and say it’s respectful of time again it’s very clear that you aren’t willing to have an honest conversation. Anyone who knows this game knows that’s a ridiculous thing to compare.

    Also why do you guys always say “well if everyone gets full geared they will all stop playing”. Since when have people quit playing once they got full geared LOL. That’s when they actually start playing the game hard to show off those numbers as well as grind alts? That thing everyone complains about never having?

    Look how well wows populations are doing right now, it’s obviously not great. Because when you lock off content like this you know what happens to the majority of players? They just leave. If they are worried about losing players because once they are geared they leave, they should be worried about the millions of players who left already because they are tired of spending days and days played just to be able to do the content they want, only to fall behind and start from stretch again when they take a break for a bit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I have told you twice now that I'm not disagreeing with you on what the purpose of a forum is. This is now the third time that I'm telling you that my criticism isn't of people disagreeing with the direction WoW is taking; it is plainly with the phrase "WoW doesn't respect (my) time" because this blanket statement is far too broad and far too reaching to be used as a legitimate talking point in any argument (and is often incorrectly used in place of "here's what I think WoW should be" [see also: entitlement]). If you don't want to engage with me on this matter, that's fine. But I'd appreciate it if you'd stop going on paragraph-long word salad diatribes about things I'm not arguing.
    I did engage with you on this and I specifically told you what was meant beyond my “didn’t respect time comment”. And you specifically said “yeah but that’s just your opinion so it doesn’t push the discussion”.

    There’s nothing to engage with you because you haven’t said anything of value yet besides “No one is saying anything”.

    How about YOU actually add something to the conversation. Like maybe comment about my suggestions. Instead of complaining that people are complaining

  13. #153
    pvp gear should have resilience and m+ should be gone.

  14. #154
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaith View Post
    pvp gear should have resilience and m+ should be gone.
    Just delete m+ huh?

    Now that's a hot take right there fam

    Some of us lol, that's literally all we've done the entire xpac was run m+ , I guess I'm officially canceled fam

    On Topic: WoW's a gearing on a carrot game, taking out gear would destroy the entire game IMO. They did it back in Legion for PVP, and it was the worst PVP expansion in the history of the game - sure Legion had great PVE.. but the gear scaling in PVP made it awful, and I've been a dabbler in PVP since pve got boring in the beginning of Cata. So yeah, take the reason to gear through M+ out and you'll gut even more of the playerbase than you've already gutted. TBH, I almost think 90% of the people making these wants are people who just got banned/suck at wow and want it to die, because these are some of the worst idea's I've EVER seen

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    I did engage with you on this and I specifically told you what was meant beyond my “didn’t respect time comment”. And you specifically said “yeah but that’s just your opinion so it doesn’t push the discussion”.
    That's definitely not what I said. I said that it's fine to state your opinion but the hundreds of other people who might say "WoW doesn't respect my time" may have entirely different issues with the game than you. That's why this phrase sucks. Two (or three, or ten thousand or ten million) WoW players may agree that the game isn't respecting their time, but they also may have entirely different ideas about how to fix it. We should avoid relying on blanket statements when discussing ways to improve the game, especially the kind that usurp rational discussion in favor of entitlement (as the OP did here).

    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    There’s nothing to engage with you because you haven’t said anything of value yet besides “No one is saying anything”.

    How about YOU actually add something to the conversation. Like maybe comment about my suggestions. Instead of complaining that people are complaining
    I made my position on this subject pretty clear in the first response I made in this thread. It was you who began this semantic derailment by asking me to elaborate on my criticism of the OP. I'm sorry that you didn't like my answer.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    That's definitely not what I said. I said that it's fine to state your opinion but the hundreds of other people who might say "WoW doesn't respect my time" may have entirely different issues with the game than you. That's why this phrase sucks. Two (or three, or ten thousand or ten million) WoW players may agree that the game isn't respecting their time, but they also may have entirely different ideas about how to fix it. We should avoid relying on blanket statements when discussing ways to improve the game, especially the kind that usurp rational discussion in favor of entitlement (as the OP did here).



    I made my position on this subject pretty clear in the first response I made in this thread. It was you who began this semantic derailment by asking me to elaborate on my criticism of the OP. I'm sorry that you didn't like my answer.
    So are you going to actually add anything to the conversation or is this it?

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Yeah 100%. That’s why no one farms old raids anymore, no one pushes rating in pvp after they get fully gear, and once people are all done gearing in mythic they stop 100% of the time.
    People farm old raids because they want transmogs, titles and mounts for no other effot than time. To be honest every single mythic raid reward should be unobtainable once a new raidtier is released, like the old magetower stuff.
    And ofc no one is doing content without a proper reward for the effort. Look at boreghast.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    People farm old raids because they want transmogs, titles and mounts for no other effot than time. To be honest every single mythic raid reward should be unobtainable once a new raidtier is released, like the old magetower stuff.
    And ofc no one is doing content without a proper reward for the effort. Look at boreghast.
    I agree with the mythic raid rewards being limited.

    I think it should only reward cosmetics that are time limited to the specific time that it’s current content.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    I’m not saying “we should be able to see all the content in the game”. As in stepping foot into the weenie hut jr. version of the dungeons and raids.
    I specifically said, it doesn’t respect your time, because in order to do the content that you want to do, which is the hardest content the game has to offer, you have to spend countless days played in order to even step FOOT in it.
    If you claim with a straight face that it takes "countless" days to step into a Mythic raid than I swear you are the disingenuous here (or maybe you just can't count that well). The process might be extended in time because of different kind of gating, but you can easily gear towards Mythic raids playing like one day a week - that's enough to do a couple of 15+ for Mythic item level reward in the vault, to get some lower level drops and some Valor to upgrade it. Same goes for thing like Legendaries - it never took "countless days" to get them; the problem was, again, gating, which prevented you from spamming those Thorgast runs. If you could, you'd get all the Leggos you need in a matter of day or two. And that's hardly "countless". Heck, I'm a father of two with a full time job and many different hobbies and I somehow manage! So no, you can't step into a Mythic raid the day you log into the game, but to claim it takes "countless days of PLAYING" is just dishonest (or maybe you simply don't play the game and you have no clue).

    And it's even easier in later patches if you start at release and are semi-active, because it means you will be able to do 15s the day x.1, x.2 and x.3 patches launch. Yeah, exactly - at the moment you can start attaining Mythic level gear at patch launch with NO preparation at all. If you're skilled enough, you can go do 20s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Also why do you guys always say “well if everyone gets full geared they will all stop playing”. Since when have people quit playing once they got full geared LOL. That’s when they actually start playing the game hard to show off those numbers as well as grind alts? That thing everyone complains about never having?
    I've never said that, but it's a pretty simple concept: if people gear up even faster than they already do, they will complete the content even faster than they already do, and yes, they WILL stop playing at that point. The drop of players in LFG queues is pretty obvious after a couple of weeks, and you want to make it an even bigger issue. It would be especially true for people who, for example, stop at Heroic, because with that easily attainable end game gear they could overpower Heroic bosses with pure item level for those Curves and mounts and whatever, so joining a game late would mean having to endure a huge drought of players. Good luck finding two capable tanks then if your small guild doesn't have them.

    (And BTW, I don't enjoy gating either, but at least I understand it's a rotten compromise to slow down the outflow of players for as long as possible.)
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-05-23 at 07:31 PM.

  20. #160
    Nah i like getting better gear from mythic.
    And i was fine not getting it when i was only raiding heroic.

    Also you can basically get full mythic level gear with only touching mythic raiding remotly now. Stop making it out that mythic is the only way and not having it somehow takes something away from you.
    Gearing is part of the game. It is fun to get new stuff. It is also a major reason people keep raiding. After a month of mindless reclears the possibility of getting better gear is what keeps people playing.
    Or how often do you go into a single player game and do the same level over and over and over again for no reason?

    PvE is NOT PvP. PvP is different. It is never the same. Always different. Every single game. (unless you do random bgs as alliance... loose on brohter )
    PvE is very static. It is fun. Until it is routine. Then you need another reason to do it again and again. And while yes transmog would give a bit of a reason to do it they GUTTED mythic transmogs. The WoD transmogs have been something i guess would work. Completly different sets. But they had to get rid of that because people got pissed they could not immediatly get these sets.
    So the playerbase actually FORCED blizzard to put in less design time and get rid of an entire set to egt uninspired recolors now... nice...
    Now sets are boring. So outside of iLvl we have no reason to play the raid after a certain point.

    TLDR: Raids are not evergreen content people play forever. It gets boring without a real reason.

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