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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    So are you going to actually add anything to the conversation or is this it?
    I never had anything more to contribute than what I said. You're the one who keeps replying to me asking me to clarify a position I've never stated.

  2. #162
    Horrible idea. You dont change a core part of the game for the world first race.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I never had anything more to contribute than what I said. You're the one who keeps replying to me asking me to clarify a position I've never stated.
    At least you admit that much, thanks.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    The issue that never seems to get addressed is how does balancing work?

    If you don't have gear upgrades to you make each boss a equal challenge? How does that look from beginning to end?
    Mythic is probably the content (dungeons) that most deserves to be a template gearing system. Not that it would ever happen (nor do I think it should happen), but if it is supposed to be some running rank of how good you are vs how good at loot rng you are, the field would have to be normalized.

    Mythic raids tho? No way should they not drop loot. What the hell is that?

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by conkrete View Post
    LFR or Normal, one has to go. Heroic should have Mythic gear and there shouldn't be a huge disparity in outcomes (10% max difference in terms of DPS/HPS etc..) in relation to Normal gear. Mythic should drop no gear, that should be competitive only. Every relevant competitive sports derives from the pre-existing condition that all have a shot at winning. I read somewhere that rewards should be: titles, mounts and possibly prize money for the top 20 for example. I agree.

    Furthermore, think of all the nonsense that could be avoided and how much better the viewing experience would be. As a potential viewer, I could actually join the stream and witness legitimate (these are always interesting) no-nonsense pulls as opposed to some heroic split farm with a group of random people that no one cares about. Viewers love to see individuals fail massively and eventually overcome challenges. All regions servers must restart on the same day; if Real vs Barcelona started 1-0 it wouldn't be called El Clasico. Raid encounters shouldn't be in beta, it should all be fresh and exciting. So what if it has a couple of bugs, Max will stop crying eventually (love you bro).

    --

    I feel like these companies need people that actually played as kids and know what's fun. The core gameplay, boss mechanics and overall feel of the game which were all created long ago carry WoW. All devs really need to do now is make it fun. Avoid terrible and dull dailies (Zereth frog quest and the one you ride the bird stomping on mawrats), dailies should be fast paced and fun like the one you ride a huge ass robot blasting stuff with guns in Zereth - whoever designed that quest deserves a raise. Avoid long ass dungeons, around 20 mins is fine - keep in mind, your player base in full of parents believe it or not. Committing to a +40 min mythic plus run is doable, I do it but it's not always convenient. There's a reason why people enjoy Mists, HoA and NW; on the opposite end, finding people for SD 20 and up is a pain. I don't know why people hate that place, I love Kaal and her gauntlet sequence. Might be a combination of long duration and claustrophobic feel to some people. The freedom of HoA feels great.

    Extremely hard content is not fun either as you lose people along the way as others are noting.

    Props on making more things account wide (that's the way to go), I seriously had a blast and enjoyed wasting my time leveling alts. For the first time, I actually healed and had over seven alts simultaneously. That's fun. I also heard Blizzard is getting rid of burrowed power, that's also a good thing. Finally, Castle Nathria was great, and went straight to my list of favorite raids alongside Kara and Ulduar.

    These are obviously all subjective, just dropping my 2 cents.
    neither has to go. If your skill level is beyond those two difficulties, then don't play them.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by conkrete View Post
    LFR or Normal, one has to go. Heroic should have Mythic gear and there shouldn't be a huge disparity in outcomes (10% max difference in terms of DPS/HPS etc..) in relation to Normal gear. Mythic should drop no gear, that should be competitive only. Every relevant competitive sports derives from the pre-existing condition that all have a shot at winning. I read somewhere that rewards should be: titles, mounts and possibly prize money for the top 20 for example. I agree.

    Furthermore, think of all the nonsense that could be avoided and how much better the viewing experience would be. As a potential viewer, I could actually join the stream and witness legitimate (these are always interesting) no-nonsense pulls as opposed to some heroic split farm with a group of random people that no one cares about. Viewers love to see individuals fail massively and eventually overcome challenges. All regions servers must restart on the same day; if Real vs Barcelona started 1-0 it wouldn't be called El Clasico. Raid encounters shouldn't be in beta, it should all be fresh and exciting. So what if it has a couple of bugs, Max will stop crying eventually (love you bro).

    --

    I feel like these companies need people that actually played as kids and know what's fun. The core gameplay, boss mechanics and overall feel of the game which were all created long ago carry WoW. All devs really need to do now is make it fun. Avoid terrible and dull dailies (Zereth frog quest and the one you ride the bird stomping on mawrats), dailies should be fast paced and fun like the one you ride a huge ass robot blasting stuff with guns in Zereth - whoever designed that quest deserves a raise. Avoid long ass dungeons, around 20 mins is fine - keep in mind, your player base in full of parents believe it or not. Committing to a +40 min mythic plus run is doable, I do it but it's not always convenient. There's a reason why people enjoy Mists, HoA and NW; on the opposite end, finding people for SD 20 and up is a pain. I don't know why people hate that place, I love Kaal and her gauntlet sequence. Might be a combination of long duration and claustrophobic feel to some people. The freedom of HoA feels great.

    Extremely hard content is not fun either as you lose people along the way as others are noting.

    Props on making more things account wide (that's the way to go), I seriously had a blast and enjoyed wasting my time leveling alts. For the first time, I actually healed and had over seven alts simultaneously. That's fun. I also heard Blizzard is getting rid of burrowed power, that's also a good thing. Finally, Castle Nathria was great, and went straight to my list of favorite raids alongside Kara and Ulduar.

    These are obviously all subjective, just dropping my 2 cents.
    oof - where do I even begin.

    Don't make an eSports out of PvE. M+ is already toxic bullshit, because of its highly competitive nature.
    You also compare it to "relevant competitive sports" and say pre-existing conditions let everyone have a shot at winning? So you say everyone has the same physical and mental capabilties to compete? No - not everything is for everyone. Not even with the best and hardest training.
    You can play anysports at a very casual level, but wont be able to compete in the champions league or whatever it may be. There NEVER is an even playingfield in life. Nowhere.

    Better and more dedicated players deserve their rewards. Why does it matter so much that they are ahead of others? You yourself wont need the gear to get through the content YOU do.

    IF anything, the RWF stuff should be handled very different: make it a tournament realm with premade characters, that people will start off on even ground. There would obviously need to be a very strict qualification. Make bosses drop no gear THERE, offer price money as incentive to participate. Make it start at the same time worldwide OR count time from the moment the raid is released in each region and take this as an indicator who is faster.
    On live realms, leave geardrops in, so that the players that are good enough for Mythic raiding but not willing/able to put in the hours for RWF, have a way to progress better over time.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Stornholio View Post
    You also compare it to "relevant competitive sports" and say pre-existing conditions let everyone have a shot at winning? So you say everyone has the same physical and mental capabilties to compete? No - not everything is for everyone. Not even with the best and hardest training.
    You can play anysports at a very casual level, but wont be able to compete in the champions league or whatever it may be. There NEVER is an even playingfield in life. Nowhere.
    Cristiano is five times more talented than the average Newcastle player. But, they all play at the same time, with the same ball, they exchange sides and play under the same weather. I think you missed the point, but I should've worded things better also. I wasn't arguing against merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stornholio View Post
    IF anything, the RWF stuff should be handled very different: make it a tournament realm with premade characters, that people will start off on even ground. There would obviously need to be a very strict qualification. Make bosses drop no gear THERE, offer price money as incentive to participate. Make it start at the same time worldwide OR count time from the moment the raid is released in each region and take this as an indicator who is faster.
    On live realms, leave geardrops in, so that the players that are good enough for Mythic raiding but not willing/able to put in the hours for RWF, have a way to progress better over time.
    Now, you're making more sense. Not that I agree with the tactics, but it supports the idea that I mentioned in my OP that it should be competitive, fair and it's own thing.

  8. #168
    The way I look at the game is that the WoW's success to me has always been about constant growth of power. That's why even going to next expansion with an idea of "abandoning" it doesn't look appealing to me in any way.

    Since I was a kid I was addicted playing Dune and similar RTS games, and I approach WoW with similar mindset, having those small incremental gains, whether it's vault upgrade or new legendary something that adds to my character and improves my game significantly feels so damn good. Sorry if I missed any of your points, responding to a title only.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    The way I look at the game is that the WoW's success to me has always been about constant growth of power. That's why even going to next expansion with an idea of "abandoning" it doesn't look appealing to me in any way.

    Since I was a kid I was addicted playing Dune and similar RTS games, and I approach WoW with similar mindset, having those small incremental gains, whether it's vault upgrade or new legendary something that adds to my character and improves my game significantly feels so damn good. Sorry if I missed any of your points, responding to a title only.
    This certainly sums up part of the problem in the OP's proposal. MMOs, at least what comes to WoW as I don't really know about others, are largely about progressing your character. It's not the only aspect of the game, but quite fundamental one. Once you reach maximum level, this is acquired by gearing. You take this, or pieces of it off, and there's a void to be filled by some means.
    Would it be the death of mythic raiding and/or mythic+ dungeons? Not really, remember that there is quite lively scene doing keys above 15, which rewards you only with some score and nice feelings (ok, sometimes quite the opposite, but that's not the point here). Would this benefit the game as a whole? I'm not too sure about that. I know there's some beefy stuff on mythic raids that I'm not going to get, nor willing to even think of investing the grind to, but that's just fine. More than fine.

  10. #170
    Epic! Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    If mythic dropped no gear, nobody would do it. Same as every other content.
    People did Challenge Modes for cosmetics. People absolutely would, not as many as do now but people still would.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    People did Challenge Modes for cosmetics. People absolutely would, not as many as do now but people still would.
    I loved CMs. I would welcome them back in a heart beat!

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    I loved CMs. I would welcome them back in a heart beat!
    Yeah they were fun. But pretty cheeseable when you got an item with like 3 sockets. Gems and slots didn't scale down.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelk View Post
    People who don't mythic raid love to come forward with this dogshit idea
    100% lmao

    How about no difficulty drops loot? see how long the game lasts?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Yeah 100%. That’s why no one farms old raids anymore, no one pushes rating in pvp after they get fully gear, and once people are all done gearing in mythic they stop 100% of the time.
    Yeah because old raids take the same amount of effort as a current-tier Mythic Raid. Really dude?

    And PvP players play for the competitive thrill, not for character progression. They are 2 very different types of player. Same reason someone might enjoy Borderlands but hate Counter Strike.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have seen a lot of people claim they "deserve" the best loot in the game just for doing the easiest content in the game - but this is the first time i have seen someone say "people doing content im not able to do dont deserve any loot at all"
    That's because that isn't even close to what he said and you made that up in your head.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    People did Challenge Modes for cosmetics. People absolutely would, not as many as do now but people still would.
    Cosmetics aren't worth the difficulty that Mythic+ provides, or they have to be absolutely crazy cosmetics. Not just "Heroic gear but better colors".
    Why can't LFR just drop cosmetics instead of gear? It is already braindead easy and Mythic+ gear is easily better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  15. #175
    MMORPG's have always been loot driven. The whole point is to keep advancing your character and becoming more powerful over time.

    All other content is typically niche activities.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    People did Challenge Modes for cosmetics. People absolutely would, not as many as do now but people still would.
    Challenge Modes were a good source of valor in MoP so, no, they didn't simply do it for cosmetics.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    That's because that isn't even close to what he said and you made that up in your head.
    So when the said ALL gear should be removed from mythic, thats not what they actually meant?
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    Yeah they were fun. But pretty cheeseable when you got an item with like 3 sockets. Gems and slots didn't scale down.
    At least the gem issue is sort of fixed now. Which is not to say it's entirely gone, but the gem slots could easily be disabled altogether along with things like set bonuses and legendary effects, like was the case in MoP and WoD.

    Issue with static gem slots back then is also that they made up part of the stat budget of items, but that's not the case with bonus gem slots nowadays.

    But if challenge modes utilize the same method of locking players to a static ilvl, there will obviously still be ways for players to game that in terms of gearing.

    Stat priorities alone will make some gear significantly better than others, especially in the case of rings and trinkets.

    But in my opinion, that's part of the fun of it. But then I'm also the type that likes to collect BiS gear sets for things like Timewalking and the Mage Tower challenges.
    Quote Originally Posted by AZSolii View Post
    "yes, let's piss him off because he loves his long hair. Let us twirl our evil mustaches amidst the background music of honky-tonk pianos! GENIUS!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Culexus View Post
    Yes i hate those sneaky account thieves that come to my house and steal my computer in order to steal some wow money! Those bastards! *shakes fist*

  19. #179
    On the other hand I'm not too badly against this idea, but in the greater scheme of things, it's not that straightforward. The game needs to have progression, the longer the better as it obviously keeps people playing. Now, for some just pushing your IO, or getting a better rank in raid clears is what it takes, but I doubt that includes too large portion of the player base. We all like our characters to get stronger, right?
    Unless you have a fixed group with fixed playtimes, how do you then keep a healthy supply of players online to keep the LFG system active enough, to keep people roaming around so that forums aren't flooded with "dead game blizzard sucks" posts, eventually self-feeding the loop and killing the game? You feed people with chores, you slow down just ever so slightly the character progression, you give them the shiny best in slot set far in the horizon that takes time and luck to obtain. Why? To keep people signing in more than just to do the CM, M+ or raid once, and then signing off for x weeks/days.
    The question obviously is where do you draw the line, what's the peak of the gearing process? You might say it's heroic raids, <insert level here> mythic+, world quests, reputation gear, extremely grindy crafts, mythic raid, LFR, you name it. No matter how you try to twist this, it's a balancing act for the developers, and as long as there is gear that you need to work for, there's people with opinions how their ideas are the best and with clear and indisputable anecdotal evidence representing the majority of the player base, while others - including the developers - are being utterly wrong.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    People did Challenge Modes for cosmetics. People absolutely would, not as many as do now but people still would.
    I don't know man. I know some people did, but it is not even remotely close to the number of people playing m+.
    I don't have numbers to back this up, but from anecdotal experience I would say its a 1:100 factor

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