Texas Elementary School Shooting, as many as 22 dead, including Children

[Deus Mortis]

snip

Yeah the costs would be expensive, especially with the fact there is always cost overruns. Republicans will drone on about making schools safer, but I got the feeling that they would veto any extra spending towards schools. The same vein they talk about mental health and then cut funding to those institutions or just completely shut them down.

[Rasulis]

Yeah the costs would be expensive, especially with the fact there is always cost overruns. Republicans will drone on about making schools safer, but I got the feeling that they would veto any extra spending towards schools. The same vein they talk about mental health and then cut funding to those institutions or just completely shut them down.

Schools will be forced to raise bonds for school hardening. The cost will vary depending on the school size and student population. The estimate is $500k per school. Multiply that by however many public schools in the US. Pretty lucrative business. May want to consider buying stocks in security companies that specialize in school hardening.

[Deus Mortis]

Schools will be forced to raise bonds for school hardening. The cost will vary depending on the school size and student population. The estimate is $500k per school. Multiply that by however many public schools in the US. Pretty lucrative business. May want to consider buying stocks in security companies that specialize in school hardening.

According to: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/ed...chools/2019/01 There are 130,930 public and private K-12 schools, so like you said someone is going to be making some money.

[gondrin]

Yeah cops vs private security there are pros and cons to each, especially depending on the school, although I for sure see the points your made by your experience which mans I am aware you could be right.

The thing is though in context school shooters are NOT looking for blow back or any kind of resistance in fact none of these mass shooters typically do, if there is armed security or cops, most wont because by the time they show up they kill themselves or surrender.

Ok, the bolded part is a complete fabrication. The people who are willing to go through with a school shooting don't care if there are armed guards at the school. They aren't there to rob it or hold people hostage. They are there to do maximum carnage and will generally go after the people that are armed first before moving onto other targets.

Sorry, the thought that a school shooter is all geared up, gets to the school, sees an armed guard and says, "Oh well, there is someone here that can fire back. I guess I'll leave/surrender/commit suicide." The first thing they do is shoot the guard without warning and will remove them from the equation. That is if the armed security doesn't flee first like Uvalde and Parkland.

This is true in Uvalde, this is true in Parkland and nearly any other school with armed security. Hell, in Uvalde, the shooter fired back and barricaded himself. Some will kill themselves if they are cornered but most will fight back until they are shot.

- - - Updated - - -

According to: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/ed...chools/2019/01 There are 130,930 public and private K-12 schools, so like you said someone is going to be making some money.

This is why, and this pertains to this discussion and not gun control, if they want to harden schools and be able to pay for it, levy a tax on all ammo, gun accessories and the guns themselves that go towards it. Do what they do with the lottery(goes to schools), gas tax(roads), or other taxes on things that are generally harmful.

[Rasulis]

According to: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/ed...chools/2019/01 There are 130,930 public and private K-12 schools, so like you said someone is going to be making some money.

Texas superintendents: Costs and logistics make hardening schools difficult

But school superintendents say costs and logistics — such as aging campuses, the sprawling footprint of buildings and sheer number of students flowing through — make hardening a challenging solution to implement.

Texas schools encompass more than 8,000 campuses and 672 million square feet, larger than every other state’s footprint than California, according to the National Council on School Facilities. Building designs and ages vary greatly, as do security protocols.

“A lot of our high school campuses across the state look like community college campuses with multiple buildings and different points of entry,” Terrell Superintendent Georgeanne Warnock said.

While modern schools often are designed with security in mind, older and portable buildings are much more challenging to “harden.”

The average age of schools in the country was 44 years old in 2012, according to the National Center for Education Statistics . And in many areas — including Dallas — they’re much older. As of 2018-19, more than 99 of DISD schools were over 60 years old.

Drawing comparisons to airport security, Williams questioned how long this security procedure would take. Airplane passengers must arrive at least an hour before their plane boards to go through security, which is often staffed by several security officers at a variety of checkpoints.

If a school serving hundreds of students starts at 8:25 a.m. and most arrive 10 minutes prior, classes won’t begin on time, the superintendent said.

“It’ll take you all first period just to walk them through security … so we’ve never looked at that as a viable option,” Williams said. He noted that many of the guns involved in school shootings haven’t come onto campus through the front entrance.

The size of a campus and the number of students enrolled makes a big difference in how hard it is to secure, Warnock said.

Schools in Ferris – 20 miles south of downtown Dallas – would have had access controls added to each door. The new system would integrate coded ID cards with video surveillance, allowing front office staff to buzz in teachers or staff at every door on the district’s five campuses.

But voters went against a $53 million bond package that included $1 million dedicated to security upgrades. So for now, that technology exists only in the front entry of those schools, while the doors to places like playgrounds and parking lots still require keys, which superintendent Hartman noted remains a risk.

“The true aim of that was to create additional security,” he said, “because when humans forget their keys, there’s that urge to prop open doors as opposed to going back and getting them.”

Districts often have to rely on bond money to make sweeping security changes because the state provides minimal financial support. State support comes through a one-time, $100 million grant program created by the Texas Legislature in 2019.

Meanwhile, a newly created per-student safety allotment funneled $50 million to Texas’ 1,200 districts and charters in the 2021-22 year.

From the post-Santa Fe grant fund, Terrell received about $76,000 from the state for “hardening,” Warnock said, an amount the superintendent described as a “drop in the bucket.”

Ferris received $43,834 in one-time grant funding, and roughly $25,000 from the annual safety allotment, which Hartman called “not enough to do anything.”

For larger scale efforts – like security systems or vestibules – districts like Ferris must pay for physical improvements or new construction largely by asking voters to pass a bond, potentially increasing property tax bills.

And school security improvements are not a one-time cost; ongoing maintenance needs means districts have to replace camera systems and update communication systems on a regular basis.

But new state-required ballot language makes districts’ ask more challenging as it mandates they tell taxpayers “THIS IS A PROPERTY TAX INCREASE” even when approving a bond would not up anyone’s tax bill.

Education advocates say that’s led to an increase in failed bond proposals. Since the start of 2021, 42% of 430 school bonds have failed across the state, according to data from the Texas Bond Review Board.

[Poopymonster]

Never understood why they're paid so little when they have such a massive effect in our society and perform a very crucial job.

I guess it's not as flashy as paying Raytheon to engineer a fancy new bomb.

Historically it was a woman's profession. By that same standard they paid them according.

- - - Updated - - -

Schools will be forced to raise bonds for school hardening. The cost will vary depending on the school size and student population. The estimate is $500k per school. Multiply that by however many public schools in the US. Pretty lucrative business. May want to consider buying stocks in security companies that specialize in school hardening.

Nah, piss poor return on investment. Boner jokes aside, you "harden" a school once for half a million or so. That's a decent chunk of change subject to highs/lows and school finances, or lack there of. Much safer to invest in Cherokee. Demand will always increase here. You know that company will never go out of business in the US.

[Zan15]

Schools will be forced to raise bonds for school hardening. The cost will vary depending on the school size and student population. The estimate is $500k per school. Multiply that by however many public schools in the US. Pretty lucrative business. May want to consider buying stocks in security companies that specialize in school hardening.

We can't afford to spend that kind of money!!!


https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/pol...262299062.html

But one nut in front of a SCOTUS house....spend spend spend.... approve immediately... don't wait for CBO estimates!!!


No idea how this funding would ever see the light of day if sandy hook couldn't get it done....

[Gabriel]

Historically it was a woman's profession. By that same standard they paid them according.

- - - Updated - - -

Teachers are paid like shit because a significant portion of teachers are teachers because it was their "calling", and actively work to sabotage any attempts to properly unionize and play hardball to make things better.

My gf is a teacher and she'd probably work for free if they asked her to. Fuck, I had to basically physically restrain her from going to work when she got really sick with the flu last time.

[Breccia]

I wouldn’t be surprised if these companies started recommending that schools be built like castles which have moats, draw-bridges and alligators, tbh.

I've sat in on my share of PTA meetings and school budgets for obvious reasons. I personally would find it shocking if, not only did a school district raise the idea of destroying an old school just to build a new one with better walls and doors, but also if that budget vote passed.

I looked for the cost of a new school building, and this 433-seat school in NYC School District 9 costs $57.5 million dollars. For those of you who've never taught in, or maybe even seen, an inner-city school, those things are about as close to fortresses as you're going to get. They're even called out by the Zombie Survival Guide.

This might not be the best comparison, this thing is five stories tall and has a gym. You'll notice the article doesn't call out "security" or "laser fence" or "sniper roost" or the like. Possibly because NYC has a low firearm murder rate per capita, one of the lowest in the country, which one of you asked for before running like a craven coward.

So let's pretend the school building that'd have what you sarcastically call "alligator moats" costs $5 million, one-tenth the cost listed here, for 500 students. Some of you can see where I'm going with this. Let's also assume that, for every child in the school district, there's 10 adults. That's high, there are 50 million K-12 children in the USA so the ratio's lower than that, but like I said, some of you know where this is going.

So, how much will you have to pay if the people in your school district vote to tear down the current school and build a new, more secure one?

$1,000 by the above estimates. And those were lowball estimates. And that money will have to come from somewhere, so don't think handwaving with "ha ha, I rent" is going to work. People don't build schools for free on whim unless they're Mormon, Amish, or RPG protagonists working off bad karma.

Any reasonable person will immediately conclude that the real cost is higher. Not just because I lowballed the cost per person, but because some school districts have more than one building. If you, say, make a new elementary school, at some point those kids go to junior and/or senior high.

By the way, what is $1,000 per US taxpayer? About $200 billion. So just to be clear, this amount of money does exist. But this would be added to everything else you're already paying for yours and/or other people's kids. All the single ladies, all the single ladies, check that gas station sign and ask "do I really have $1,000 to spare for safety for someone else's kids?"

Now instead of answering honestly, ask what you think the average American will say. Bear in mind, the average American has been known to, instead of using $1,000 to pay for other people's children's security, spend $1,000 to buy a gun to murder them instead.

If anything like this is likely to happen at all, barring, say, Elon Musk just doing it because he's bored, it'll trickle in slowly when older buildings need to be replaced anyhow. Until then, children will be in those older buildings that don't have Claymore mines surrounding the only entrance but behind the barbed wire.

EDIT: Also...wasn't this particular school recently outfitted with security? You'd think the taxpayers would be livid that the money they spent on protecting Uvadle students didn't work.

Texas already “hardened” schools. It didn’t save Uvalde.

In January 2020, the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District received $69,000 from a one-time, $100 million state grant to enhance physical security in Texas public schools, according to a dataset detailing the Texas Education Agency grants. The funds were comparable to what similarly sized districts received.

You should be looking at that bolded number, and immediately realize, of course, that's not enough to fit the above criteria. Unless there were 69 kids I'm going to hell for writing that No new Uvadle school was built, only security measures that failed stapled onto the existing one. Unless I'm misreading the situation, entrances weren't bricked over, a fence or other funnel wasn't added, and there's nary a mention of "man-traps" despite "most schools having one" (still waiting on that evidence btw).

$100 million is a lot of money, no question. But as shown above, that's enough for 100,000 students at most for a new secure building. Uvadle alone has over 4,000 and Texas is big, y'all.

No matter what special interests (aka "people running in to profit off child murder") want, there just isn't the money to do that. Will some schools get better locks, windows, cameras? I hope so. Will they get the fortress that people seem to want? No.

[Edge-]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/09/us/uv...oom/index.html

Per NYT - Uvalde PD knew there were injured kids in the building long before they breached. Apparently Chief Arrendo was concerned about the risk to officers and that informed his decision to not send anyone in to rescue injured children.

[Draco-Onis]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/09/us/uv...oom/index.html

Per NYT - Uvalde PD knew there were injured kids in the building long before they breached. Apparently Chief Arrendo was concerned about the risk to officers and that informed his decision to not send anyone in to rescue injured children.

I think that interview summed up everything pretty nicely, they didn't go in because they were afraid they would get hurt. It's like a doctor being afraid of patients it's depressing that none of them are going to even get fired for this. There's zero accountability for police in the United States.

[Breccia]

Apparently Chief Arrendo was concerned about the risk to officers and that informed his decision to not send anyone in to rescue injured children.

This will be the cross the Texas school police will have to bear for the rest of their guilt-ridden lives. As has been discussed, these police were not experience, trained, or equipped to handle the average American with a weapon of war. It's quite possible they could have...I want to say "zerged" but I think there's like seven of them total, but they could have mass rushed the shooter and outnumbered him, and that could have just as easily gotten most of them shot and killed. Or, they could have done what they did and done nothing while children and teachers were murdered by gun, but it's also possible the shooter could have come back outside or leaned out an open window.

I'm sure it was a tough call to make. I'm going to continue taking a sour view of them, not because of their decision (which I disagree with), but because they lied about it at first. Most people who are convinced they did the right thing don't lie about it in public, and people who are confused or unsure can probably admit that. If you tell people you went after the shooter when you didn't, you've sold yourself on engaging the shooter as the better move. So you know what you were supposed to do, but didn't. My dim view of their behavior is not an invitation for them to throw their lives away, of course.

[Endus]

Teachers are paid like shit because a significant portion of teachers are teachers because it was their "calling", and actively work to sabotage any attempts to properly unionize and play hardball to make things better.

My gf is a teacher and she'd probably work for free if they asked her to. Fuck, I had to basically physically restrain her from going to work when she got really sick with the flu last time.

The OTF has 160,000 members. That's not the reason.

[Masark]

"Hey, let's give more money to these fucking worthless shitheads."

UVALDE, Texas (AP) — The superintendent of the Texas school district where 19 students and two teachers were fatally shot said Thursday that the district will hire more police officers in the fall but released no information about the investigation.

During a sometimes contentious news conference, Uvalde school district officials said they wouldn’t answer any questions about the investigation or personnel matters.

When Superintendent Hal Harrell was asked if he still trusts the school district’s police chief, Pete Arredondo, he said, “that’s personnel.”

[Edge-]

"Hey, let's give more money to these fucking worthless shitheads."

Ah yes, that was the problem that day, there weren't enough law enforcement on the scene.

[tehdang]

"Hey, let's give more money to these fucking worthless shitheads."

Hopefully heads roll when the investigation concludes.

[Verdugo]

Hopefully heads roll when the investigation concludes.

They wont. Voters like you made sure of that.

[tehdang]

They wont. Voters like you made sure of that.

You really take an issue with bipartisan condemnation of cop behavior, and your tribalism demands to push people out? (I want the officers canned, as well as their civilian oversight voted out if they refuse to do it). I make this Exhibit A on why progressives fail to achieve much of their agenda. They can't stand the impure agreeing with them.

[Mihalik]

You really take an issue with bipartisan condemnation of cop behavior, and your tribalism demands to push people out? (I want the officers canned, as well as their civilian oversight voted out if they refuse to do it). I make this Exhibit A on why progressives fail to achieve much of their agenda. They can't stand the impure agreeing with them.

Tone down the pearl clutching for a second.

I'm asking you honestly, no hostility, just be honest here for a second.

Do you recognize that conservative voters have for forever been putting in power Republican legislatures, governors, city administrators, DAs, judges who ended up creating a massive web of laws, ordinances, regulations, judicial precedents that systematically eliminated almost all police accountability to the point where getting a cop fired for committing a felony on camera is an uphill battle? Let alone expecting any criminal and civil liability.

This as been discussed and explained repeatedly. The Uvalde cops, all of them, are legally fully protected from any liability civil or criminal.

Like, look...this is mostly unrelated to this specific incident, but just now the conservative SCOTUS effectively gave full exemption to federal agents from the 4th amendment. Like the 4th amendment no longer protects US citizens from search and seizure as long as the search and seizure is being done by a federal agent. It's insane.

https://www.vox.com/23159672/supreme...atrol-immunity

And this happened because conservative voters afraid of immigrants and of abortions voted for politicians who created a supreme court that is on a mission to completely dismantle 70 worth years of civil rights protections.

Honestly, tell me with a straight face that conservative voters are not responsible for this complete and total lack of accountability?

The issue people have with the conservative pearl clutching now is that - You guys made this system. You created this.

You could always go - Fuck! We were wrong. Let's get some accountability rolling. But what we get instead is more money thrown at the failed system, then when the next black person gets shot in his own bed by the cops or choked to death in street you guys pass another set of rules and laws and whatnot that further reduces accountability.

Conservatives don't grasp the fact the accountability that protects the people they don't like also protects them when the cops finally fail or target them.

[Breccia]

You really take an issue with bipartisan condemnation of cop behavior

Look, I'm glad you're upset about this...but you've posted on these forums often enough to know @Verdugo has a point. Think back over the issues from defund the police to George Floyd, and ask "has any of this been bipartisan?"

And while you're doing that, think back on this specific case. Other than that time Abbott got angry because the police lied to him and made him look the fool -- and one could easily defend that's not a police/shooting issue, that's a PR issue -- name one Texas Republican who has come down on the police for this.

Days after the shooting, Trump went to the NRA. Find one thing he said about the police that was negative. This link might help. And I suggest you hurry, because it's a matter of minutes before @Endus reminds you that heavily-armed infallible police are part of the authoritarian regime, and you know what, he's right.

So again, I'm glad you're upset with the police, and even if I wasn't glad you're still entitled to your opinion. But you read the news, you read these forums too. Your opinion is not shared by most Republicans, most conservatives, and most Party of Trumpers.